I'm pretty sure we're not at even the basics of Germ Theory yet, cus germ theory is focused on "germs" rather than just the idea of contagion through contact.
It's a good step tho.


What? This is literally the basics of Germ Theory. "I believe there is something causing disease ... I believe that something is some sort of agent(in this case demon spells) ... this leads directly into modern Germ Theory. We lack the tech to even approach modern Germ Theory, but the basic idea of the 'transmissible agent of disease' is there.
 
While we're being creative.
I made some fan art, kinda. Is fan-conlang a word?



I figure the people's writing system would have started as markings on pots storing grain and dye and the like so I figured they would be using chalk or charcoal or other pieces of pottery to mark it. Therefore I've kept the symbols pretty fluid and not shied away from curved lines like I might have if I thought we wrote mostly in stone or wood or kept to fixed shapes like I would have if I thought we wrote in wet clay with a wedged stylus.
If we have the concept of zero I will eat my hat. I hope we do, but I doubt it.
 
@Citino
Spot on! That would be my reasoning had we been playing nega verse. Since people are renewable resources and we can raid other people for stuff, even if the weather is bad we can grow by eating other people.
 
[X] The ritual is incomplete, more study is required before it can be safely used on a widescale (Temporarily unlocks Scourge Warding megaproject)

[X] Build more boats and attempt a flank attack (Costs Econ to build new boats, which you will keep no matter the result)

[X] Bynwyn (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplomacy, Heroic Mysticism, accelerates Scourge Warding megaproject while alive, chance for bonus Stability)
 
Concept of zero is middle ages i think
It appeared at different times. I think the the first recorded appearance was early in the Golden Age of Islam. I do t know for sure though. I know it gained wide usage during the renaissance, however.

EDIT: Scratch that, after some cursory research, I found that zero was known as early as Ancient Egypt and Babylon. Egypt even practiced a base 10 mathematical system, which is absolutly remarkable. However, the Babylon had a sophisticated sexagesimal system. Their version of zero was a placeholder, not a true zero, and the concept was non existent.

Trivia: the Egyptian word for zero was "nfr," meaning beautiful, pleasant, good.

In the "west" it wasn't really until the Golden Age of the Khalifates that zero truly 'existed' in the modern world.
 
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If we have the concept of zero I will eat my hat. I hope we do, but I doubt it.
*shrug* Didn't the Mayans invent it around this time? I feel like the concept isn't that hard. We had nothing when we were starving, after all.
Yeah, Egypt invented it symbol and all in 1740 BC. Separately, Babylon invented a placeholder for larger numbers that was just a space in the "2nd millenium BC" and then in the same system someone developed an actual symbol in around 200 BC. But it wasn't a real zero just a placeholder.
Either Mayans or Olmecs invented a proper zero in either 100ish BC or 4th century BC. Incas had a thing that was basically the same as Babylon where they just left a blank spot in their knots.

What? This is literally the basics of Germ Theory. "I believe there is something causing disease ... I believe that something is some sort of agent(in this case demon spells) ... this leads directly into modern Germ Theory. We lack the tech to even approach modern Germ Theory, but the basic idea of the 'transmissible agent of disease' is there.
Yeah, it's the basics of germ theory in the sense that the conclusion is opposed to the miasma theory, but we're still not thinking that it was caused by "germs." It's still not thinking there is an actual, killable thing that's causing the disease that spreads from person to person, but rather just renaming the disease as a "demon spell."
 
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[X] The ritual is incomplete, more study is required before it can be safely used on a widescale (Temporarily unlocks Scourge Warding megaproject)

[X] Build more boats and attempt a flank attack (Costs Econ to build new boats, which you will keep no matter the result)

[X] Bynwyn (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplomacy, Heroic Mysticism, accelerates Scourge Warding megaproject while alive, chance for bonus Stability)
 
If we have the concept of zero I will eat my hat. I hope we do, but I doubt it.
I went by this on wikipedia
The Babylonians did not technically have a digit for, nor a concept of, the number zero. Although they understood the idea of nothingness, it was not seen as a number—merely the lack of a number. What the Babylonians had instead was a space (and later a disambiguating placeholder symbol) to mark the nonexistence of a digit in a certain place value.
Also the Mayans.
Edit: Also also, our priest caste/philosopher caste at the time were known as graincounters... I figure if they knew anything, they knew math.
 
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Yeah, it's the basics of germ theory in the sense that the conclusion is opposed to the miasma theory, but we're still not thinking that it was caused by "germs." It's still not thinking there is an actual, killable thing that's causing the disease that spreads from person to person, but rather just renaming the disease as a "demon spell."

Would you argue that this is not the basic origin for Germ Theory as an idea? If not, then we are arguing semantics.
 
Would you argue that this is not the basic origin for Germ Theory as an idea? If not, then we are arguing semantics.
I would argue that this is a starting point for the origin of Germ Theory as an idea, I would not argue that this is the same as the basics of Germ Theory, because the basics of Germ Theory is that there is an organism on your body causing the disease.

Edit: Actually, this is arguably a medium place between miasma theory and germ theory, because a demon is still casting the spell. The spell is arguably a starting point for the germ theory, while the demon is arguably a starting point for the miasma theory.
Edit 2: But also who cares let's end this.
 
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I would argue that this is a starting point for the origin of Germ Theory as an idea, I would not argue that this is the same as the basics of Germ Theory, because the basics of Germ Theory is that there is an organism on your body causing the disease.

Edit: Actually, this is arguably a medium place between miasma theory and germ theory, because a demon is still casting the spell. The spell is arguably a starting point for the germ theory, while the demon is arguably a starting point for the miasma theory.
Edit 2: But also who cares let's end this.


And in regards to your first edit: excellent point!

Edit: yay for amicable debates about the historical diversions and origins of modern scientific theories.
 
Well I guess we now know the bad aspects of getting really high hierarchy.
Not sure whats being referred to here. Thats our new Honor trait at work, since the old chiefs were elected from those who had gained glory and attention from war, and their ancestors were those who caused the high chief circus, it stood to reason under the new culture, they now seemed to be part of the problem.

Hierarchy actually helped, since it meant we had Working Man chiefs of subdomains set up, giving an alternative pool to elect from...with the drawback that these specialist high chiefs were bad at things outside their domain.

Germ Theory is that there are small tiny things that infect people and cause the disease, rather than disease being a result of intangible demons or the spiritual corruption of the person in question. So developing Germ Theory means that people understand that diseases are transferred through contact and can be fought through hygiene and sterilization. You can approximate most of the same effective habits that GT provides through rituals and superstition, but the lack of a unifying theory makes that difficult and flimsy. These rituals would also involve less helpful stuff like censers of smoke near a sick person - for all that smoke chases away insects it's not useful v disease, and can clog your throat.

Inoculation is just that if you encounter one disease that's similar enough and get infected by it, you're inoculated against other diseases. Our people are inoculated against smallpox because cowpox is similar; and you yourself are inoculated against flu strains that are similar to ones you've caught in the past.
FYI, the smoke driving away insects also helps reduce secondary infections, and the presence of ongoing fires often meant that recently boiled waters was used for cleaning and drinking, as it was convenient, compared to using long standing water in buckets or waterskins.

While smoke was aggravating for certain respiratory infections, it presented a net improvement, especially in heavily forested or tropical regions, where insects were very common.
A nice boon to hygiene and health would be the invention of soap. Soap is actually really simple to make, and you only need stuff that the People have plenty of, namely oil/fat/grease and ashes/potash/lye.
I have no idea how someone would discover it though.
Surprisingly common actually, but we hadn't discovered lye yet, and our garbage disposal via incineration and our hygiene methods made its chance discovery difficult.


Well, actually the world as a whole is rapidly progressing toward the copper age and possibly has already reached bronze, depending on what buttons the metalworkers have been pressing. But having sailboats already is quite impressive, I agree.
The canal is sort of ~ It takes a bunch of effort but the Pyramids are roughly equal.
You'd be surprised at the sheer gap between the Stone age and Copper age, and the Bronze age.

Copper was accessible long before smelting due to native copper. Bronze required copper, tin and smelting, followed by refining chance discovery from certain copper ores.



Two points in a single turn sounds a touch ridiculous, not to mention that there is also compelling evidence to the assumption that the Administrative genius who built the settlement caused it to pay out on the first turn, instead of on a delayed clock.

In either case, you are right about the other settlement coming into it's own this turn, and my point about the primary weight of this megaproject falling on our shamans rather than our granaries combines to still solidly support the idea that we will be fine economically by taking the boat action.
Noting that our new settlements in areas with forest, like Newnet, immediately pays out Economy from automanaged forest on the turn after.
Its really annoying that the DP have the river that has its source in the SP lands flowing through their lands if it was the other one we could have been sneaky and damed up their river the prevent them from having any water and defeated them that way.
Hence the long and increasingly frustrating process of explaining that a dam would primarily screw the WC.

Even if the river keeps flowing, the annual floods they depend on would just....stop.

There is no evidence to support the idea that settlements pay out multiple times, nor does that particular settlement have much reason to pay out multiple times or in great excess since it was already there, we just organized things officially, nor does the working definition of economy support that idea (Economy being a roughly permanent ability to allocate manpower and food to endeavors, a definition at odds with the idea that a settlement (again, especially the river confluence which was already fairly populous, we just organized it) can repeatedly grant additional economy).
I'm pretty sure we don't get econ from the minor settlements outside centralized control due to our government model
 
Okay, so first off my completely unnecessary vote followed by important explanations as to why.

[X] The ritual is incomplete, more study is required before it can be safely used on a widescale (Temporarily unlocks Scourge Warding megaproject)
I don't want to keep on just hitting the megaproject button, unlike other people, but this adds some very important things to many future plans.

[X] Build more boats and attempt a flank attack (Costs Econ to build new boats, which you will keep no matter the result)
This is actually an idiotic idea. The better part of it? It will lead to a sea trade and we can probably ship stone workers over there to build a wall, so the nomads will be circumvented. Problem indirectly solved.

[X] Bynwyn (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplomacy, Heroic Mysticism, accelerates Scourge Warding megaproject while alive, chance for bonus Stability
I hate the idea of a specialist high leader, however there is one very important thing here. We currently have a trait that highly focuses on us discouraging heroes. Giving glory to someone achieving a major action, therefore, will help combat this trait. I don't expect it to turn things around, but this is quite critical at this point in time.

Okay, on to planning. We will almost certainly pick the megaproject *cries in a corner at having constant megaprojects* and we will have to spend at least one secondary action on a war mission, leaving us with one secondary action. I would like to use this to drive home a point.

Megaprojects are expensive in both econ sinks and action economy. While I'm not against this one, I think we really need to make it our last one while we stabilize, no matter how neat the other ones seem. We desperately need to do other actions. Now, if you'll excuse me I'm going to try and start putting together a comprehensive and adaptable plan for my proposed 'Next Era' phase plan for our civilization.
 
FYI, the smoke driving away insects also helps reduce secondary infections, and the presence of ongoing fires often meant that recently boiled waters was used for cleaning and drinking, as it was convenient, compared to using long standing water in buckets or waterskins.
Censers aren't large enough to provide heat for boiling water and usually were used in an indoor place to provide a scented smoke that was believed to chase away the cause of the disease, typically in countries with window screens and curtains. In other words, while smoke in a broad sense is certainly useful in poorer hands it's markedly ineffectual in the wealthy, religious context that the use of "cencers" refers to.
 
So we are at the moment in positive feedback loop.
Surplus food -> More people -> more food
But the land issue may sink that, who's with me to take more land?
 
Why take more land when you can take more ocean? Conquer the seas. Own the bay. Then come back and reconquer our homeland.
 
Why take more land when you can take more ocean? Conquer the seas. Own the bay. Then come back and reconquer our homeland.

I think the movie "Waterworld" sunk that vision. Salt everywhere is not how i envision my twilight years. Really the things you saw does change your view to a degree.

That and tropical storm with typhoon. Seriously i think this wet dirt ball is trying to kill us.
 
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