- Location
- Australia
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
- Location
- Canada
No once we saw the refugees as free econ and would use them to finish off mega projects or increase our econ when it was low. It translated into our Patrician and Guild quests asking for refugee intakes. Also we had grand sacfice and annual festivals as a main to quickly gain stability in a turn.
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
Retraining comes out of Main Martial, while the mercs when on main budget are in the secondary track, so the action would shut down before you had the chance to do that. Therefore it is a pointless question that simply can't occur.
- Location
- United States
The way I see it, it will likely be easier to build the Dam or mega projects in general after the reforms.
Since half of our actions are controlled by factions, we can go on megaproject support for several turns while the factions deal with their own issues themselves.
We can focus on finally getting the Dam/Canal done.
Or whatever else we feel like doing.
It should make us able to be more flexible with what we personally want to do.
Since half of our actions are controlled by factions, we can go on megaproject support for several turns while the factions deal with their own issues themselves.
We can focus on finally getting the Dam/Canal done.
Or whatever else we feel like doing.
It should make us able to be more flexible with what we personally want to do.
I did.
And I answered.
Sadly, the Steppes make a peaceful society nigh impossible.
And the fact that our social promotion is still largely gated behind Warriors as a necessary step means there will always be people agitating for war because they want social advancement. Either by proving themselves and moving up the ladder or by getting their children new clay to farm.
Schools will to some extent fix it if artisans and artists become a valid (and reliable) avenue of social advancement.
The problem with schools is once again going into the deep end if we overdo it. A sudden oversupply of educated people agitating for their rights won't be helpful for us, so we need to be gradual and ideally get more theatres as well for that social glue.
This topic aside, I think we should at least try at some point to combine Support Artisans and Expand Economy and see if that doesn't provoke some mechanization. Same for Artisans + Mills to get windmills or sawmills, which would give us another leap in output.
IC, yes. OOC, anyone who did that was an idiot who couldn't do math. Anything beyond the minimum refugee intake was always more expensive than the alternatives (aside from for that short period of time where we didn't even use it)
- Location
- Canada
Eh see my edited response. It tackles the issue of stability.
I mean, I won't deny this being true, but many people in the thread did see it as a form of gaining econ. I'm not sure if it was a majority, but it was a very real percentage.
I was very annoyed by that belief after awhile.
But those costed econ, so it was a waste of an action, so anyone who went at it for econ was an idiot who couldn't do math.
- Location
- Australia
That doesn't mean we should kill our other neighbours just for the sake of making our warriors better. (And as I have explained already, we shouldn't do it for wealth or geopolitical reasons either.) We have our MCs, the Games, and yeomen to keep our warriors combat-capable.
- Location
- Canada
I'm not arguing whether it was smart from a math sense but that we did it and those intentions translated into our society.
- Location
- Australia
@Academia Nut, is there any way for us to disband mercenary companies? If there isn't, why is that the case?
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Maaaybe don't call other participants idiots, regardless of how the math works out on generating Econ vs recovering Stability.
E: and regarding that math, keep in mind that we get that Econ immediately while we don't necessarily need stability immediately, so it can accelerate our growth like taking a loan, allowing crisis-preventing or income-granting or whatever megaprojects to be built when otherwise we might sit at good stability but unable to do anything to gain a lasting advantage before crunch time hits again.
Further, we take that Econ from neighboring polities, so it generates a competitive advantage and prevents our neighbors from building up as much - I think the Highland Kingdom would be a much greater threat if they had never lost any Econ to us, for example.
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"Okay boys, now I know you've been doing this for a long time, and I know you're proud of what you do, and I know you have a huge history of past company members to live up to, and I know you're not gonna like this, and I know you've got a lot of pointy sticks, and I know you're the best at using said sticks, but could you, you know, quit your respected, well paid profession now? We no longer want you. And don't think about just leaving and hiring yourself out to some other country. That definitely wouldn't work... because I said so."
Nope, I see no way in which that could be problematic.
Taking in refugees was ~2 econ per stability hit. At the absolute worst, we gained 1 econ/secondary action, Ironblooded raised it pretty early, then the Palace and the Ironworks/Steelblooded just made it even more.
Those cost us:
{S} Festival: 1 econ+1 sec/stab
{M} Sac: 1.5 econ + 1 sec/stab
{S} Sac: 2 econ + 1 sec/stab
As such, at absolute best, the refugees were worth just as much as our basic expand econ. And for the vast majority of the time it was significantly worse.
Eh, I was exaggerating. I figured that was fairly clear, but fair enough.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
You can write in to either reintegrate them into the main army, or to cut them loose.
I fail to see what the problem with the mercenaries is. They are as close to a professional standing army as we have. And they behave themselves as long as they are paid, unlike our core warriors. And those we can retrain.
They also nicely separate the society at large from war.
They also nicely separate the society at large from war.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The current situation is different, but I quote below the actions we had for stability and centralization as of the Great Works update when we were offered refugees a bit before the Epic Age. If, at that time, we felt our stability was fine, our Centralization was low, and we had a use for Econ, then taking extra refugees would have been an excellent choice as it makes the Enforce Justice action essentially give 1-3 Centralization and 2-3 Econ for a Secondary in addition to weakening surrounding polities. There's a reason that refugees got nerfed and now give Temp Econ Damage.
- Location
- Australia
They don't separate the society from war. To assume that they do would be to assume that they separate themselves from society, which is ludicrous. The wealth, prestige, and status they gain from war gives them benefits within society, which encourages members of said society to promote warlike pursuits in the hopes that they can gain wealth, prestige, and status for themselves.
The big reason to integrate mercenary companies is that they take up subordinate slots. The less slots that are taken up, the more powerful Vassal Support becomes in regards to promoting Loyalty and spreading our culture to our other subordinates.
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I'm pretty sure that vassal support targets colonies, vassals, and marches, not mercenary companies or free cities. Mercenary company loyalty regenerates at a very fast pace without external influence, so long as they aren't fighting a war.
I already covered that. And we barely used it because the anti-justice veekiewagon was strong enough that it just didn't happen.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Ah I didn't realize it was in that timeframe. It's hard to determine what values we had at any given threadmark without extensive research.
And someone later not being savvy enough to take Enforce Justice makes that later decision bad, not the Expand Economy one, from the math perspective.
- Location
- Australia
I just had an idea. If we were to integrate ALL of our mercenary companies at once, their discipline, structure, and professionalism will be transferred over into our main army. Mechanics tell us that nothing special would happen, but narrative I think tells us that this would give us a professional state army.
Vassal Support only gives Loyalty when we have less subordinates than our cap.
They have more separation than us going Offensive Policy. It's volunteer career soldiers rather than Honorable Warrior Dudes. Albeit those do join up as well.
But the more important aspect is that they are state armies not beholden to any Patrician faction. They are vastly less likely to start trouble than main-pool warriors.
Edit
That's unlikely and will cost us three free Main War actions.
And we are below cap. We have only once gone over the cap when Phygrif went on his enthusiastic walk.
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