- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Using PiA to eat Western Ymaryn.
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
Oh?
If so, how come we can Integrate Txolla, but not our Western Subordinates?
I agree, it doesn't make any sense, unless there's some religious imperative for the Ymaryn land to be geographically contiguous on land. Txolla should be vastly harder to manage and trade with.
Unless, of course, the issue was the previous infestation of pirates, and the action status hasn't been updated. Even this is doubtful given the difficulty of intercepting catamarans.
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We aren't a modern society. We are so amazingly far from a modern society that holding us to that standard is naive at best.
Governors exist to decide local laws and interests. Some areas need different laws due to population density, geography, and resources available. Almost everyone has separate interests.
You can not, however, just blindly drop power into governors' hands and expect them to actually work in the best interest of their area. They will lie about taxes (we need a much more thorough version of a census to cover this), they will favor themselves and their associates over other people (we need good amounts of communication and education so enough people are aware of their rights. Heck, we need rights), they will use their new found extra power to secure more power.
In order to achieve what you want, we need much better communications, many more people than the Patricians of the population to have Academy levels of education, a large and complicated bureaucracy to act as oversight, and an immensely more sophisticated set of laws to make sure everyone is actually behaving.
And in the end? That set up does not increase the area we can govern. It increases the amount of actions that can be taken. Decentralization at this point is giving every governor power to decide laws (lack of oversight means they get to decide what gets done and what doesn't) and troops to enforce them (how else can they expect to deal with trouble makers?), which is basically arming them with all the tools they need to start a civil war. And if not that, then to say 'well the king can't really stop me, and my neighboring governor is totally trying to steal the iron mine that is in my territory,' both sides will be thinking this, as our diplomacy tech isn't even near sophisticated enough to stop this sort of thing.
That, of course, leads to a warring states era. Everyone is technically part of the same polity, but no one actually treats it as such unless an external threat comes up. At least, until an actual civil war where someone claims independence happens. Something we may be able to stop, but I wouldn't count on it.
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- Location
- Australia
You don't seem to get it. The point of my proposal is to make the Ymaryn less warlike. The way to do that is to minimise the amount that we go to war. Of course we'll become less effective at war if we do less war, but going to war just for the sake of being better at war is a really bad thing. Imagine that reasoning applied in-universe (which is something Academia Nut does): "Our warriors are getting soft. Let's send them to kill one of our neighbours to keep them sharp." Your argument is exactly like that and causes really bad long-term (and even short-term) cultural effects. Being less effective at war is a tradeoff we need to accept. At least our mercenaries train in peace to keep up their skills, plus our yeomen system and the Games blunt skill degradation further.
War should not be a casual thing for the People engage in. We must go back to the old ways of war only ever being defensive, to only fight against foreign threats when those foreign threats are attacking us. The People are too warlike, which is causing us problems and will cause us even more problems in the future.
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I don't think it is a coincidence that our worst run of disasters in history started with an offensive war.
We are bordering the steppes. We need trained and blooded soldiers in case another genocidal nutcase comes in.
And where did we ever use the argument 'stay sharp' to send our mercenaries? From the start we used them for geopolitical aims.
The first time we hired them out, we did it to keep the lowlands divided and Xohyr too busy to take a swing at us.
The second time was Freehills, where we made sure no one faction had a monopoly on the Straits.
The last time was to improve relations with the HK (and accidently ensure they get wrecked by the disease as well).
I can't recall a point where we went to war as a training exercise. There was always a very good reason behind it. You may disagree with the reason, but it was never taken lightly.
- Location
- Australia
Read my posts.
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They started before that. At the very least the climate disaster had been going on for a while.
The "old ways" was us funneling nomads through our territory to attack our rivals and keep the lowlands from unifying.
Just saying.
- Location
- Australia
My objective is keeping our culture from degrading further and becoming more warlike. That event did not make us more warlike.
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
Yes, climate - that is rather obviously unaffected by social attitudes anyway. But our current slew of home-made social problems - that did start with that war.
Before we had the Red Banner we didn't touch the Lowlands at all, and what happened with the original Thunder Horse was hardly planned - there is a reason the "HALPING!" meme sprung up.
- Location
- BaWü
Yes, it was a little bit more successful than planed, but I remember it being one of the goals to use them against the death priests.
- Location
- Canada
I don't remember the Dead Priests ever attacking us but we always joined in on coalitions to defeat them.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
The answer AN gave was, get a combination of "better roads, better horses, better boats".
I imagine another large part of the reason we can integrate Txolla and not anything left on the sea is because we can project force effectively over that distance of land but not over the sea. Not with the tiny amount of navy we have, of which catamarans don't seem to count.
- Location
- Austria
Catamarans are hard and expensive to make. I imagine we'd be way better off wrt connection with cheaper ships, because 10 ships each taking a week to travel are better than 1, even if it takes only a day, for connectivity.
- Location
- Australia
Yes, and that was always considered a mistake both in-universe and among the players. An action does not become justified just because it's performed.
- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I also think we should note that he said better roads rather than more roads. It might be quality not quantity that we need when it comes to roads.
The SPECIFICS of it weren't planned, certainly. But directing the Thunder Horse to go bring war to the Lowlands? We totally meant to do that.
- Location
- United States
We definently still need more quantity.
And I image we will get better roads as we build more of them.
Pretty sure this will also said while we still had trails instead of roads, so we might have already crossed the quality threshold.
We should get up to 50% connectivity, then turn Roads into a main repeated action.
Just so we never have to worry about them again.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
That was a thing I forgot, but that would be another factor. We also have biremes, but I am not sure how intensive building those is.
So I agree, and additionally the projection of force is something I think is wrapped up in connectivity.
- Location
- Canada
Yet we continued to do just that even after they became the Xohyr. Anyways if you wish to degrade our military to focus on cultural values I hope you'll vote in the future to keep building roads, temples and theaters. Basically seep our culture in every square inch of land that we currently own.
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
@Academia Nut If you're going to introduce new factors, would you mind waiting until we've finished Dam-kun? It's been so long.
- Location
- Canada
Yup intentions matter just as much as actions. Its why when we saw refugees as free econ that our society began to see them as cheap labour that they can abuse.
Just saying, we've never actually been able to use refugees as free econ. Stability has always been worth more than the econ they give, except for a very short time between gaining PSN+Enforce Justice and before our Ironworks. And even then we didn't use it because of fears of getting too high Centralization, which eventually led to us skipping PSN actions because we didn't have enough Centralization.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
If you guys make it to the modern world without ever building a dam, that is what we like to call "Your fault", so no, if you don't want to build the dam before the system has to be overhauled, that's on you guys.