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Paths of Civilization

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We have to pull out our belt and give the West a good spanking for not listening. I mean why would they want to break away in the first place? West Ymaryn made sense because they are land grabbing assholes but I don't know why are other groups would want to.
 
WeaponX1023 said:
I mean why would they want to break away in the first place?
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Well, we did start taxing them, so at this point there's a real cost associated with being under our rule - and, from their current perspective, not much in the way of benefits to counterbalance it.
 
[X] [Enclave] Attempt to reconcile issues (-1 Stability, -4 Mysticism, -6 Culture, ???)
[X] [React] Restore confidence after the plague (Sec Restore Order + Sec Proclaim Glory)
[X] [React] Greet new nomad chief (Main Targeted Salt Gift)
[X] [React] Attempt to get the western colonies in line (Main Influence Subordinate - Starts with Western Wall, x2 also goes to Greenshore, x3 goes to Tinshore)
[X] [PSN] Main Plant Poppies (-2 Cent + Costs)
 
have a tally!


Vote Tally : Original - Paths of Civilization | Page 4961 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 124003-124165]
##### NetTally 1.9.8
Task: Enclave
[30][Enclave] Attempt to reconcile issues (-1 Stability, -4 Mysticism, -6 Culture, ???)
[7][Enclave] Increase Connectivity (Main Build Roads, ???)
[3][Enclave] Remove the settlements (-2 Progress for Internal Reorg, -6 EE, -2 Econ, -1 Stability, ???)
[1][Enclave] Clean up lower courts (Main Enforce Justice, ???)
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: React
[37][React] Attempt to get the western colonies in line (Main Influence Subordinate - Starts with Western Wall, x2 also goes to Greenshore, x3 goes to Tinshore)
[30][React] Greet new nomad chief (Main Targeted Salt Gift)
[26][React] Restore confidence after the plague (Sec Restore Order + Sec Proclaim Glory)
[10][React] Attempt to get the western colonies in line (Main Influence Subordinate - Starts with Western Wall, x2 also goes to Greenshore, x3 goes to Tinshore) x2
[9][React] Expand Palace (2xGreat Hall Annexes)
[6][React] Contact closest neighbours (Sec Trade Mission to Freehills and Harmurri)
[3][React] Expand Redshore market (2xSec actions to 0/6 Redshore Market)
[2][React] Attempt to get the western colonies in line (Main Influence Subordinate - Starts with Western Wall, x2 also goes to Greenshore, x3 goes to Tinshore) x3
[1][React] Expand fleet (Main More Warships)
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: PSN
[16][PSN] Main Plant Poppies (-2 Cent + Costs)
[10][PSN] Main Expand Forests (-2 Cent + Costs)
[2][PSN] Main Plant Hemp (-2 Cent + Costs)
[1][PSN] Main Plant Cotton (-2 Cent + Costs)
[1][PSN] Main Expand Econ (-2 Cent + Costs)
Total No. of Voters: 44
 
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The fact that before the plague they were watching the Western Ymaryn get slowly yoked under the Storm wolves does make me kinda surprised they decided now was the time though. Feels like a strong negative argument for independence.
 
Somebodynobody10 said:
You don't comment on roads?
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Commented several times. They don't fix any issues in a way that's relevant for a Hero Admin to intercede in other than revealing and reiterating again that we need something like 20 more roads AND at least 5 turns after that for it to help.

To use a disease metaphor, we've been drinking coke instead of water for the past 10 years and now are on the verge of an obesity induced heart attack AND prediabetic.

Cutting the coke isn't going to do something fast enough at this point even if ultimately we need it to actually prevent recurrence.
We can use the genius doctor to do a surgical bypass though!
WeaponX1023 said:
So what was there problem before taxes? They must be idiots let's kill there leader and replace them with someone compliant. (Not really unless that would work)
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There were problems yes, they were increasingly independent because we gave them too much. We paid to start up their mines and to help them get infrastructure laid down and all that, without taking anything back in return.

Hence the reforms:
-Rotating governors was the best one for keeping them loyal, but its cost was unmanagably high due to eating a massive amount of Diplomacy per turn(I believe this was because of the political chaos that would result under this government system).
-Food taxes hurt loyalty, but it slowed their growth reducing the rate they became independent.
-Wealth taxes hurt loyalty, but they would have tied up actions to keep generating wealth(which was action and econ-intensive to convert)

It is inevitable that colonies seek independence. Converting subordinates to colonies is mechanically highly optimal(which is why we keep doing it), but colonies given room to grow WILL either integrate or break away, whereas Trade Posts are unlikely to break off.
 
Thomasfoolery said:
The fact that before the plague they were watching the Western Ymaryn get slowly yoked under the Storm wolves does make me kinda surprised they decided now was the time though. Feels like a strong negative argument for independence.
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To them its a positive argument for independence.

They are saying "Look at this plague, what did you do for us other than tell us to shut down everything. We're not dumb, we can do that on our own too."

Fortunately we can say "We were saving Txolla and the Thunder Horse from the nomads who burned the Thunder Speakers, without us they would all be dead and their homes ashes".
Thats one of the reasons why they're still nominally with us. They're waiting to see if we'd help them recover too.

That's Lord's Loyalty at work. The act of protecting one of your vassals from an existential threat is why they're giving us looks and muttering about independence rather than immediately making it official.
We meet our commitments.
 
I think under the circumstances we should at least expect Greenshore and Tinriver to go independent... which would not be so bad in many ways. We would have neighbors of our culture and religion to ally with and more options for successor states when/if we collapse.

There is just one problem: Personal Stewards of Divinity will kick our ass if we lose land and it will keep kicking it if we do not get it back. This is how the Hathayn died.
 
DragonParadox said:
I think under the circumstances we should at least expect Greenshore and Tinriver to go independent... which would not be so bad in many ways. We would have neighbors of our culture and religion to ally with and more options for successor states when/if we collapse.

There is just one problem: Personal Stewards of Divinity will kick our ass if we lose land and it will keep kicking it if we do not get it back. This is how the Hathayn died.
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I believe we still have at least 1 support subordinate passive, which should help with the narrative that even though they haven't gotten a full focused commitment, they haven't been completely ignored. Plus WW is the biggest influence that side of the sea. They're less likely to split if WW stays and it's just them.
 
veekie said:
To them its a positive argument for independence.

They are saying "Look at this plague, what did you do for us other than tell us to shut down everything. We're not dumb, we can do that on our own too."

Fortunately we can say "We were saving Txolla and the Thunder Horse from the nomads who burned the Thunder Speakers, without us they would all be dead and their homes ashes".
Thats one of the reasons why they're still nominally with us. They're waiting to see if we'd help them recover too.

That's Lord's Loyalty at work. The act of protecting one of your vassals from an existential threat is why they're giving us looks and muttering about independence rather than immediately making it official.
We meet our commitments.
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Plus our legit is still 4 instead of 3.
 
[X] [Enclave] Attempt to reconcile issues (-1 Stability, -4 Mysticism, -6 Culture, ???)
[X] [React] Restore confidence after the plague (Sec Restore Order + Sec Proclaim Glory)
[X] [React] Greet new nomad chief (Main Targeted Salt Gift)
[X] [React] Attempt to get the western colonies in line (Main Influence Subordinate - Starts with Western Wall, x2 also goes to Greenshore, x3 goes to Tinshore)
[X] [PSN] Main Plant Poppies (-2 Cent + Costs)
 
[X] [Enclave] Attempt to reconcile issues (-1 Stability, -4 Mysticism, -6 Culture, ???)
[X] [React] Restore confidence after the plague (Sec Restore Order + Sec Proclaim Glory)
[X] [React] Greet new nomad chief (Main Targeted Salt Gift)
[X] [React] Attempt to get the western colonies in line (Main Influence Subordinate - Starts with Western Wall, x2 also goes to Greenshore, x3 goes to Tinshore)
[X] [PSN] Main Plant Poppies (-2 Cent + Costs)
 
[X] [Enclave] Attempt to reconcile issues (-1 Stability, -4 Mysticism, -6 Culture, ???)
[X] [React] Restore confidence after the plague (Sec Restore Order + Sec Proclaim Glory)
[X] [React] Contact closest neighbours (Sec Trade Mission to Freehills and Harmurri)
[X] [React] Attempt to get the western colonies in line (Main Influence Subordinate - Starts with Western Wall, x2 also goes to Greenshore, x3 goes to Tinshore)
 
None of these options start us working on the dam, which is a mild fucking disappointment.

[Enclave] Attempt to reconcile issues (-1 Stability, -4 Mysticism, -6 Culture, ???)
[React] Attempt to get the western colonies in line (Main Influence Subordinate - Starts with Western Wall, x2 also goes to Greenshore, x3 goes to Tinshore)
[React] Attempt to get the western colonies in line (Main Influence Subordinate - Starts with Western Wall, x2 also goes to Greenshore, x3 goes to Tinshore) x2
[React] Attempt to get the western colonies in line (Main Influence Subordinate - Starts with Western Wall, x2 also goes to Greenshore, x3 goes to Tinshore) x3
[PSN] Main Expand Forests (-2 Cent + Costs)

If we want colonies let's go get them.

Also, Uppity Colony Syndrome is a good reason to replace the late Thunder Speakers with a march, if we get the chance.
 
loserthree said:
None of these options start us working on the dam, which is a mild fucking disappointment.

[Enclave] Attempt to reconcile issues (-1 Stability, -4 Mysticism, -6 Culture, ???)
[React] Attempt to get the western colonies in line (Main Influence Subordinate - Starts with Western Wall, x2 also goes to Greenshore, x3 goes to Tinshore)
[React] Attempt to get the western colonies in line (Main Influence Subordinate - Starts with Western Wall, x2 also goes to Greenshore, x3 goes to Tinshore) x2
[React] Attempt to get the western colonies in line (Main Influence Subordinate - Starts with Western Wall, x2 also goes to Greenshore, x3 goes to Tinshore) x3
[PSN] Main Expand Forests (-2 Cent + Costs)

If we want colonies let's go get them.

Also, Uppity Colony Syndrome is a good reason to replace the late Thunder Speakers with a march, if we get the chance.
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I hate to be repetitive but... How are you paying all the wealth you are giving the colonies.
 
[X] [Enclave] Attempt to reconcile issues (-1 Stability, -4 Mysticism, -6 Culture, ???)
[X] [React] Restore confidence after the plague (Sec Restore Order + Sec Proclaim Glory)
[X] [React] Greet new nomad chief (Main Targeted Salt Gift)
[X] [React] Attempt to get the western colonies in line (Main Influence Subordinate - Starts with Western Wall, x2 also goes to Greenshore, x3 goes to Tinshore)
[X] [PSN] Main Plant Poppies (-2 Cent + Costs)

I would have preferred Cotton over Poppies to chase paper, but this is the one likely to win the vote. Sad we can't get more trade opened or influence more unruly subordinates, but we just have too much crap to get done.

Also, Riveted Mail! Yasssssss.
Adhoc vote count started by 8bitBob on Oct 31, 2017 at 7:30 AM, finished with 124185 posts and 49 votes.
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