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Paths of Civilization

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DocMatoi said:
less of an issue than usual: we currently dont have the urban debuff by word of AN, so its just the purity buff and whatever effects come from our narrative of "clean bunch of smug bastards"
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I'm pretty sure its less "no urban debuff, so actually positive from other bonuses", i think its "with only 3 free cities active, bonuses cancel out the debuff, so overall roll is base chances". Your point still stands in general, but while Redhills with its baths is probably fine, valleyguard doesn't have baths, and redshore only has level 1 baths for a level 2 city with level 2 ironworks, so i can't imagine those two cities are having much fun right now
 
Rakuhn said:
And what greater way to enrage the dead hero's spirit? He sought to destroy us, to leave no brick standing upon the other, to kill all those who refuse to embrace the nomadic lifestyle. And in the end, it is the "impure" and "evil" agriculturalists who will save his people, who will convert them from nomadic pastoralists into farmers and subordinate warriors. And their descendants will safe-guard us from future nomadic hordes. In the end, he who tried to destroy us will have made us stronger.
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guys i am so smug right now its not even funny
 
DocMatoi said:
Literally impossible until gunpowder.
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You don't need gunpowder to hunt down refugees and annihilate large population groups. Sure complete genocide is next to impossible but we can certainly dismantle any culture or civilization they once had.

Susano said:
Message to whom? The next nomad horde that comes in a century won't even know about what happened and most likely won't care - nomads are typically not the greatest history buffs. And there will always be more nomad hordes.

Meanwhile, inviting the nomad remnants in strengthens our values, and has some pretty nifty positive effects, like giving us light cavalry and possibly eroding the position of the patricians to some degree.
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A message for our nation. Anyone who will try to harm you will die screaming and forgotten.

Mortis said:
I think just reading this gave me cuts from the sheer edginess. Have you even been playing this quest? We gave up Eye For An Eye centuries ago because it's a barbaric and unjust worldview, and given that nomads don't remember history and there are far too many of them to do anything about for more than a generation it won't do anything to prevent future attacks. Self-destructive revenge and sadism are not part of this quest, or in any way a good thing, either morally or practically.
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This isn't eye for an eye, and it is not self destructive. Our people will remember the history, and they will remember that in their darkest moment that they can survive and the enemies they face will eventually be annihilated.

Rakuhn said:
When we fought the Khemetrei, countless warriors and many civilians lost their lives. Not just to the Khem, but to the Thunder Twins and the Highland Kingdom who hoped that the distraction would prevent us from fending them off. When we were given the option for peace, we took it. The king who had caused the war was killed, and we considered justice to have been done. We joined in friendship with the Khemetrei, and found ourselves happier, more secure, and more powerful than ever before.

The nomad hero who caused the war, as a direct result of his war against The People. Our gods have punished the nomads for their sins. They have lost fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, sons and daughters. Let us do as we have always done, and help the remainder recover.

And what greater way to enrage the dead hero's spirit? He sought to destroy us, to leave no brick standing upon the other, to kill all those who refuse to embrace the nomadic lifestyle. And in the end, it is the "impure" and "evil" agriculturalists who will save his people, who will convert them from nomadic pastoralists into farmers and subordinate warriors. And their descendants will safe-guard us from future nomadic hordes. In the end, he who tried to destroy us will have made us stronger.
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How about instead of enraging his spirit we erase his very existence. Destroy all who speak his name and forget that he was the one who lead his people. No one will tell his story, no one will remember his name. All that will be remembered is the foolish attack by the nomads and how our retaliation wiped them from history.
 
Burnlogic said:
You don't need gunpowder to hunt down refugees and annihilate large population groups. Sure complete genocide is next to impossible but we can certainly dismantle any culture or civilization they once had.



A message for our nation. Anyone who will try to harm you will die screaming and forgotten.



This isn't eye for an eye, and it is not self destructive. Our people will remember the history, and they will remember that in their darkest moment that they can survive and the enemies they face will eventually be annihilated.



How about instead of enraging his spirit we erase his very existence. Destroy all who speak his name and forget that he was the one who lead his people. No one will tell his story, no one will remember his name. All that will be remembered is the foolish attack by the nomads and how our retaliation wiped them from history.
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I can't tell if you're trying to make a joke or if you're actually going full edgelord. Then I saw your name, and, well...
 
Mortis said:
I think just reading this gave me cuts from the sheer edginess. Have you even been playing this quest? We evolved Eye For An Eye centuries ago because it's a barbaric and unjust worldview, and given that nomads don't remember history and there are far too many of them to do anything about for more than a generation it won't do anything to prevent future attacks. Self-destructive revenge and sadism are not part of this quest, or in any way a good thing, either morally or practically.
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...actually we lost Eye for an Eye because we wanted to spite the nomads even more. We had a choice on how to retaliate, and I, along with a few others, were advocating that by stripping them of their dignity and pride and just bashing every single one of their heads in and leaving them in a shallow grave, we'd show just how little we thought of their honor and pride.

It also almost didn't happen.

Yes, I'm still smug about getting that to pass, why do you ask?
 
On the one hand, this guy has so many edges that it may actually be a surprise Worm crossover.

On the other, rating an apparently serious post as "funny" either represents bad debating as stated earlier in the thread or just gives him exactly what he wants. (not trolling/trolling)
 
Burnlogic said:
You don't need gunpowder to hunt down refugees and annihilate large population groups. Sure complete genocide is next to impossible but we can certainly dismantle any culture or civilization they once had.
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We have 1 point of light cavalry. At the bare minimum, the nomads have 2 points of that.

Now how the hell do we run down a group that can travel faster than us, when the only force we have that can catch up is outnumbered at least 2 to 1.
Burnlogic said:
A message for our nation. Anyone who will try to harm you will die screaming and forgotten.
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Our people won't care, the clan is already broken, and it's impossible to kill the nomads fully. At least until we have the means to conqueror the entire steppes.
Burnlogic said:
This isn't eye for an eye, and it is not self destructive. Our people will remember the history, and they will remember that in their darkest moment that they can survive and the enemies they face will eventually be annihilated.
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It is self destructive. There is literally no way to crush them, and it will waste time and effort that we could be using to save literally tens of thousands from the plague ravaging our nation.
Burnlogic said:
How about instead of enraging his spirit we erase his very existence. Destroy all who speak his name and forget that he was the one who lead his people. No one will tell his story, no one will remember his name. All that will be remembered is the foolish attack by the nomads and how our retaliation wiped them from history.
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I mean, none of the nomads are going to remember him in a few generations, and even for the Ymaryn, he'll really just be a minor footnote in our written history that only the priests know about in a century or two. Waging war is more likely to strengthen the memory of him than destroy it.
 
Burnlogic said:
You don't need gunpowder to hunt down refugees and annihilate large population groups. Sure complete genocide is next to impossible but we can certainly dismantle any culture or civilization they once had.
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Are... are you actually, unmockingly somehow trying to argue for "hunting down refugees" and "complete genocide" as a good thing? What the hell.
 
Timeline updated.

This current arc is still called the Iron Age Collapse.

This isn't completely true, but we do know that the Trelli, Thunder Speaker, and Mountain Horse are all but gone.

I believe we are likely to see other civilizations survive. AN mentioned that the HK is still on fire but will turn their eyes to the Lowland soon, possibly also for the Harmurri if they decided to join in the brawl.
 
[X] Whoever surrenders may join the People (-1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, 2 temp Econ damage, -2 EE, +2 Light Cavalry, Additional Disease Roll, ???)
 
VoidZero said:
Besides, i don't expact all are well with either of options. Additional diease rolls or warring in unknown land are quite risky.
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We only get one disease roll for accepting all who surrender, same as the noncombatants option:
Academia Nut said:
[] Whoever surrenders may join the People (-1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, 2 temp Econ damage, -2 EE, +2 Light Cavalry, Additional Disease Roll, ???)
[] Camp followers and slaves may surrender, warriors may not (-1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, 2 temp Econ damage, -2 EE, +2 Econ next phase, Additional Disease Roll, ???)
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Bolding mine. Note the lack of pluralization in both cases.
Burnlogic said:
Sure complete genocide is next to impossible
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Not to mention, y'know...grotesquely immoral and to be actively avoided? If you wanna talk messages we're sending our people, "genocide is okay" really should not be on that list.
 
Kiba said:
Timeline updated.

This current arc is still called the Iron Age Collapse.

This isn't completely true, but we do know that the Trelli, Thunder Speaker, and Mountain Horse are all but gone.

I believe we are likely to see other civilizations survive. AN mentioned that the HK is still on fire but will turn their eyes to the Lowland soon, possibly also for the Harmurri if they decided to join in the brawl.
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Lucky for us, we weren't damaged enough by the horde to make us a soft target, and the only vassal destroyed was the TS, so I don't think there will be any grabs for the lowlands.

Not unless they are supremely confident in their military after the plague for some reason.
 
Burnlogic said:
You don't need gunpowder to hunt down refugees and annihilate large population groups. Sure complete genocide is next to impossible but we can certainly dismantle any culture or civilization they once had.



A message for our nation. Anyone who will try to harm you will die screaming and forgotten.



This isn't eye for an eye, and it is not self destructive. Our people will remember the history, and they will remember that in their darkest moment that they can survive and the enemies they face will eventually be annihilated.



How about instead of enraging his spirit we erase his very existence. Destroy all who speak his name and forget that he was the one who lead his people. No one will tell his story, no one will remember his name. All that will be remembered is the foolish attack by the nomads and how our retaliation wiped them from history.
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Harsh, man. How about instead of that we use his name as a bad example of what happens if you go full Purity? Never go Full Purity. He will be much more useful as a cautionary tale than forgotten out of spite.
 
Citino said:
Lucky for us, we weren't damaged enough by the horde to make us a soft target, and the only vassal destroyed was the TS, so I don't think there will be any grabs for the lowlands.

Not unless they are supremely confident in their military for some reason.
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Hey, if they want to volunteer as test subjects for our Mass Levy policy, that's their decision.
 
tenchifew said:
Patricians also wanted this because the war leaders among them correctly realized the value of light cavalry, and that we really need it to be able to deal with the nomads in the future, I would say.
I more or less expect their next quest to be "Ponies, yet again!"
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You know, if the reservoir for this plague is in the horses, we(and anyone who steals the idea from us) might become the only people able to field large groups of horse cavalry in the entire world.
After all, gathering up large groups of horses would be a death sentence for anyone without the infrastructure to track, isolate, and kill the diseased ones(even in the field on campaign).
And with Purity we'd take a noteworthy hit to keep cavalry.
At that point it becomes a question of whether we want to let the idea of horse cavalry die to keep the idea from our enemies.

All other cavalry would become Donkeys and Zebras(assuming they're not also plague carriers), and chariots pulled by both them and other things that normally wouldn't be considered for chariot duty, alongside more exotic mounts like Elephants, and maybe Terror Birds in the Americas, and would require a lot of breeding before cavalry became especially practical again.


So I ask the thread, if that's the case, do we want to (probably)eliminate large-scale horse cavalry, or force through keeping them?
 
Burnlogic said:
A message for our nation. Anyone who will try to harm you will die screaming and forgotten.
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Yes, that is exactly what I'm talking about as well. A message to our people. Something they will remember from this. And you know what I want them to remember?

The fire is warm.

The Ymaryn have always stood for that. It was shameful what we did about the monotheists, and so it is HIGH time we correct our course, remember our roots, and do what's right again.
 
zamin said:
I can't tell if you're trying to make a joke or if you're actually going full edgelord. Then I saw your name, and, well...
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I chose my name for the military strategy of scorched earth. The logic of burning if you will.

Mortis said:
Are... are you actually, unmockingly somehow trying to argue for "hunting down refugees" and "complete genocide" as a good thing? What the hell.
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Define "good"? I'm merely pointing out that destroying a culture and civilization is in our ability to accomplish.

Citino said:
We have 1 point of light cavalry. At the bare minimum, the nomads have 2 points of that.

Now how the hell do we run down a group that can travel faster than us, when the only force we have that can catch up is outnumbered at least 2 to 1.

Our people won't care, the clan is already broken, and it's impossible to kill the nomads fully. At least until we have the means to conqueror the entire steppes.

It is self destructive. There is literally no way to crush them, and it will waste time and effort that we could be using to save literally tens of thousands from the plague ravaging our nation.

I mean, none of the nomads are going to remember him in a few generations, and even for the Ymaryn, he'll really just be a minor footnote in our written history that only the priests know about in a century or two. Waging war is more likely to strengthen the memory of him than destroy it.
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1. We can certainly scatter them to the point that they will never reunite as a culture.
2. Our vassals will. By showing what we do to enemies that hurt our allies they will feel safer under our protection and wary of what we will do if they betray us.
3. Key word here is: Scattering.
4. This way not even those old priest will remember his name

Citino said:
Also, just to make sure, what do you think the total population of nomads that we would need to kill is?
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Enough that their oral history is completely forgotten. I don't think these primitives are advanced enough to have a writing system.
 
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Burnlogic said:
You don't need gunpowder to hunt down refugees and annihilate large population groups. Sure complete genocide is next to impossible but we can certainly dismantle any culture or civilization they once had.
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Burnlogic said:
I chose my name for the military strategy of scorched earth. The logic of burning if you will.



Define "good"? I'm merely pointing out that destroying a culture and civilization is in our ability to accomplish.



1. We can certainly scatter them to the point that they will never reunite as a culture.
2. Our vassals will. By showing what we do to enemies that hurt our allies they will feel safer under our protection and wary of what we will do if they betray us.
3. Key word here is: Scattering.
4. This way not even those old priest will remember his name



Enough that their oral history is completely forgotten. I don't think these primitives are advanced enough to have a writing system.
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Burnlogic said:
Enough that their oral history is completely forgotten. I don't think these primitives are advanced enough to have a writing system.
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Uh, you literally just have to wait 2-3 generations for that. Like, them forgetting their oral history is the main problem we have with dealing with nomads, since they forget things like treaties or suffering massive military defeats almost instantly.

But you didn't answer my question. How many nomads are there total, in your mind? Keeping in mind that we have a population of something like 6-8 million people in our nation, I believe.
 
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