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Paths of Civilization

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Yeangst said:
[X] Pursue the survivors (War does not end)

Listen to the Astrologers
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What possible purpose does this serve.

Setting aside all the moral considerations for a moment and being entirely selfish:
We have too many other things on our plate. Continuing the war requires we devote actions to war missions that could instead be spent propping up the economy, reconnecting with subordinates, fighting the plague, building the dam, building walls and roads and watchtowers, you name it.

In contrast, hunting down desperate plague-ridden survivors gets us nothing, prevents us from using our Martial points for other activities, prevents survivors carrying warnings back out into the steppe nomad culture on our behalf, and actually risks losing more points of Martial if the desperate remnants put up any kind of fight.

Continuing the war isn't just pointless, it's actively detrimental to our growth or to ANY OTHER GOAL.

For goodness' sake. t's not even the optimal path of what you want to do is eliminate the nomads! We need to grow enough that we can settle the damn steppes in order for that to happen, which means we need to devote actions to things that actually help us grow!

If you can keep supporting war continuation after having its uselessness explained to you that clearly... god help you.
 
VoidZero said:
[X] Camp followers and slaves may surrender, warriors may not (-1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, 2 temp Econ damage, -2 EE, +2 Econ next phase, Additional Disease Roll, ???)

Eh, the nomads can die in a ditch. Their enslaved population and non-warriors can join however. Less blood on that bunch's hand. Shame the TS got shattered.
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:cry::cry::cry: It's not healthy to hold hate in your heart!
 
[X] Whoever surrenders may join the People (-1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, 2 temp Econ damage, -2 EE, +2 Light Cavalry, Additional Disease Roll, ???)
As much as I would like to "invite" them in, then burn them alive. This is the best options both narratively and mechanically.
 
OliWhail said:
What possible purpose does this serve.

Setting aside all the moral considerations for a moment and being entirely selfish:
We have too many other things on our plate. Continuing the war requires we devote actions to war missions that could instead be spent propping up the economy, reconnecting with subordinates, fighting the plague, building the dam, building walls and roads and watchtowers, you name it.

In contrast, hunting down desperate plague-ridden survivors gets us nothing, prevents us from using our Martial points for other activities, prevents survivors carrying warnings back out into the steppe nomad culture on our behalf, and actually risks losing more points of Martial if the desperate remnants put up any kind of fight.

Continuing the war isn't just pointless, it's actively detrimental to our growth or to ANY OTHER GOAL.

For goodness' sake. t's not even the optimal path of what you want to do is eliminate the nomads! We need to grow enough that we can settle the damn steppes in order for that to happen, which means we need to devote actions to things that actually help us grow!

If you can keep supporting war continuation after having its uselessness explained to you that clearly... god help you.
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It's long been my contention that astrology in this setting is literally magic. That first astrology event, the advice also seemed completely nonsensical, but worked out in a way that literally no one predicted. And it's be good to scientifically test this thesis.

And what do you care? There's no way the vote will win.
 
VoidZero said:
Come back when we lost rage against the steppe value. :V
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George said:
That's a legacy, not a value. We only lose it by collapsing. And these people really aren't steppe nomads any more if they're willing to join us and settle down.
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Yeah, if legacies really influenced our people, we'd have a lot more burnt down cities by now. :V
Yeangst said:
It's long been my contention that astrology in this setting is literally magic. That first astrology event, the advice also seemed completely nonsensical, but worked out in a way that literally no one predicted. And it's be good to scientifically test this thesis.

And what do you care? There's no way the vote will win.
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Possible narrative if we can get a unanimous or near-unanimous vote.

Plus, even if it's magic, it's pretty clear that the shown roll means that the priests are strongly fudging what they found, so we shouldn't trust it to be what was actually meant.
 
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OliWhail said:
Dude, why in the world. We have SO many other fires to put out - let's take the dang people in. It helps mitigate xenophobia, it helps reinforce our deepest and most important values, it fulfills the Patrician quest, it frees up actions to let us focus on the three billion other things we need to get done at this point. For the love of Crow, let it end.
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Blood must be paid with blood. They killed families, raped women, burned our cities. They did this willingly, following a mad man they named prophet. Why should we give these people mercy when they have given us none? No, we must kill this taint root and stem. Destroy them before they have a chance to rebuild and fight us again, and to send a message that any who attack us in our times of need, will watch as everything they have ever built or accomplished is cast down..
 
SpeckofStardust said:
Name a city we have taken that didn't burn down.
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Valleyhome, if by taken you mean obtained by creating.

Otherwise, we've taken all of one city by conquest, so...
Burnlogic said:
Blood must be paid with blood. They killed families, raped women, burned our cities. They did this willingly, following a mad man they named prophet. Why should we give these people mercy when they have given us none? No, we must kill this taint root and stem. Destroy them before they have a chance to rebuild and fight us again, and to send a message that any who attack us in our times of need, will watch as everything they have ever built or accomplished is cast down..
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And how do we do that?
 
SeptimusMagisto said:
White, White Light
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Citino said:
Nomad Negaverse
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You should tag @Academia Nut to make sure your omakes get threadmarked

George said:
That's a legacy, not a value. We only lose it by collapsing. And these people really aren't steppe nomads any more if they're willing to join us and settle down.
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I think AN has confirmed that we can lose some legacies without collapsing, specifically for the "3 <type of subordinate>" legacies; if we dont have any of that type of subordinate left, we lose it. So i could see us losing other legacies if we lost something intrinsic to what gave us the legacy.
Of course, most legacies don't really have anything of the sort, other than the King of the Hill legacies (where presumably we lose them if we lose KotH), but if this is enough to remove/evolve purity, and/or to start an event chain letting us do so, i could see it costing us the rage legacy, because we'd effectively be using nomads as an example of how everyone deserves acceptance, even the most impure to the People.
Of course, as @Rakuhn says, we've had lots of other positive nomad interactions, so... i dont think this will either remove purity or the legacy, but i think if it does one it'll do the other, if that makes sense?
 
[X] Whoever surrenders may join the People (-1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, 2 temp Econ damage, -2 EE, +2 Light Cavalry, Additional Disease Roll, ???)

Wow, that was terribly unlucky for the nomads :lol:rofl::evil:

Shame about the Thunder Speakers, they'd managed to last through so many conquests, but this was just one too many, I guess. Hopefully our western subordinates are still answering to us. I guess Uvothyn will be going for stability and possibly a study health action while the provinces focus on economy and wealth. No idea about the Guilds, maybe a Warships if they can fit it in?
 
Burnlogic said:
Blood must be paid with blood. They killed families, raped women, burned our cities. They did this willingly, following a mad man they named prophet. Why should we give these people mercy when they have given us none? No, we must kill this taint root and stem. Destroy them before they have a chance to rebuild and fight us again, and to send a message that any who attack us in our times of need, will watch as everything they have ever built or accomplished is cast down..
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Message to whom? The next nomad horde that comes in a century won't even know about what happened and most likely won't care - nomads are typically not the greatest history buffs. And there will always be more nomad hordes.

Meanwhile, inviting the nomad remnants in strengthens our values, and has some pretty nifty positive effects, like giving us light cavalry and possibly eroding the position of the patricians to some degree.
 
Citino said:
Well, that or walls.

Like, all the walls.

Cause that's about the only way our settlements will hold out against a nomad attack without a large cavalry presence.
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Wait until someone figures out how to herd the rural population as arrow fodder when they siege a city. Settled civ usually doesn't do that since population = food and wealth, but a nomadic horde on the other hand....

DocMatoi said:
Literally impossible until gunpowder.
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You mean railroad, because gunpowder drops the cost of siege significantly.

Rakuhn said:
We've allied with nomads in the past. We elected a nomad as our king. We've vassalized a nomadic tribe. All of those things had a better chance of losing the Rage Against the Steppe legacy than accepting the surrender of nomads and converting them into farmers.
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Yes I'm aware, but the legacy also allows march to run sanctioned raid into steppe. Besides, i don't expact all are well with either of options. Additional diease rolls or warring in unknown land are quite risky.
 
Burnlogic said:
Blood must be paid with blood. They killed families, raped women, burned our cities. They did this willingly, following a mad man they named prophet. Why should we give these people mercy when they have given us none? No, we must kill this taint root and stem. Destroy them before they have a chance to rebuild and fight us again, and to send a message that any who attack us in our times of need, will watch as everything they have ever built or accomplished is cast down..
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I think just reading this gave me cuts from the sheer edginess. Have you even been playing this quest? We evolved Eye For An Eye centuries ago because it's a barbaric and unjust worldview, and given that nomads don't remember history and there are far too many of them to do anything about for more than a generation it won't do anything to prevent future attacks. Self-destructive revenge and sadism are not part of this quest, or in any way a good thing, either morally or practically.
 
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VoidZero said:
Wait until someone figures out how to herd the rural population as arrow fodder when they siege a city. Settled civ usually doesn't do that since population = food and wealth, but a nomadic horde on the other hand....
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Ouch, I forgot that was a viable tactic...
VoidZero said:
Yes I'm aware, but the legacy also allows march to run sanctioned raid into steppe. Besides, i don't expact all are well with either of options. Additional diease rolls or warring in unknown land are quite risky.
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AN confirmed we actually can't currently critfail our disease roll, so any extra damage from the nomads should be fairly minor.
 
Burnlogic said:
Blood must be paid with blood. They killed families, raped women, burned our cities. They did this willingly, following a mad man they named prophet. Why should we give these people mercy when they have given us none? No, we must kill this taint root and stem. Destroy them before they have a chance to rebuild and fight us again, and to send a message that any who attack us in our times of need, will watch as everything they have ever built or accomplished is cast down..
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When we fought the Khemetrei, countless warriors and many civilians lost their lives. Not just to the Khem, but to the Thunder Twins and the Highland Kingdom who hoped that the distraction would prevent us from fending them off. When we were given the option for peace, we took it. The king who had caused the war was killed, and we considered justice to have been done. We joined in friendship with the Khemetrei, and found ourselves happier, more secure, and more powerful than ever before.

The nomad hero who caused the war is dead, as a direct result of his war against The People. Our gods have punished the nomads for their sins. They have lost fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, sons and daughters. Let us do as we have always done, and help the remainder recover.

And what greater way to enrage the dead hero's spirit? He sought to destroy us, to leave no brick standing upon another, to kill all those who refuse to embrace the nomadic lifestyle. And in the end, it is the "impure" and "evil" agriculturalists who will save his people, who will convert them from nomadic pastoralists into farmers and subordinate warriors. And their descendants will safe-guard us from future nomadic hordes. In the end, he who tried to destroy us will have made us stronger.
 
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[X] Whoever surrenders may join the People (-1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, 2 temp Econ damage, -2 EE, +2 Light Cavalry, Additional Disease Roll, ???)
We got very, very lucky there, but that shouldn't stop us from taking advantage of it.
 
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