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Paths of Civilization

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Hmm... I am beginning to second guess myself. Perhaps we should listen to the guy? We have the resources to spend and we can get back to another golden age given time. I am worried we might be picking the worst decision possible again taking the unknown path like we are. Just ignoring a angry mythic genius sounds like a terrible idea in retrospect...
 
[X] [Prophet] Ignore him (???)
[X] [React] Study Metal (benefits from Genius Artisan)
[X] [PSN] Main Plant Cotton (-2 Centralization + cost)
 
Um guys maybe we should listen to the mystic genius I mean it has worked quite well for us so far and besides it is time for us to end our golden age I mean we can always get another one later on.
 
Bladesguy said:
Hmm... I am beginning to second guess myself. Perhaps we should listen to the guy? We have the resources to spend and we can get back to another golden age given time. I am worried we might be picking the worst decision possible again taking the unknown path like we are. Just ignoring a angry mythic genius sounds like a terrible idea in retrospect...
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Note we never take the word of anyone on the surface. Regardless of whether they are correct or not, they need to show reasonable proof. Let him gather a following first, because otherwise obeying his words will create a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Just consider what happens when:
-Legitimacy drops to 1
--Note that last time there was a government crisis the breakpoint is Legitimacy + Stability > 0
-Stability drops to 0
-Golden Age ends
-Wealth crashed, leading to inability to pay Wealth after Artisan Games costs.
--Remember he's taking a -10 Wealth cost and reducing our Wealth income at the same time twofold(Rule of Gold cuts Trade income in half when lost, then we lose the Golden Age income from cities).

Simply put, if we obey him we break ourselves. We need him to at least give us a half turn to get a Proclaim Glory lined up or to gather enough followers to make his words less unpopular.

Yes, he's a Genius.
Geniuses can destroy you even if they are right and you listen to them.
 
Note that we did not make the decision to go to war with the Thunder Twin based on the priests' assured belief that we need to go war, but our own reasoning entirely orthological to what actually happened(meteor strike). We based it on following the Ymaryn values of doubt and testing(love of wisdom).

Don't let the mytho-jumbo dissuade you from making rational decisions. Let him win debates.
 
[X] [Prophet] Embrace his newphilosophies (-10 Wealth, -1 RA, -1 Legitimacy, -2 Stability, removes Rule of Gold value, ???)
Hordes are attracted to civs with a lot of wealth.
 
Rakuhn said:
[X] [Prophet] Embrace his newphilosophies (-10 Wealth, -1 RA, -1 Legitimacy, -2 Stability, removes Rule of Gold value, ???)
Hordes are attracted to civs with a lot of wealth.
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OK. That will immediately reduce our wealth to 8. Then, we lost 4 income immediately due to loss of Rule of Gold, then 5 income from GA, reducing our wealth down to 7, and we will actually be losing income if we do not solve piracy problem. This is on top of a potential government crisis caused by stability and legitimacy loss from not completing the Observatory quest and accepting the prophet. We're screwed six ways to Sunday.
 
Kiba said:
Note that we did not make the decision to go to war with the Thunder Twin based on the priests' assured belief that we need to go war, but our own reasoning entirely orthological to what actually happened(meteor strike). We based it on following the Ymaryn values of doubt and testing(love of wisdom).
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The very simple fact there is that the Genius Mystic succesfully predicted a meteor strike. Yeah, at the time we weren't convinced, but now we know.
 
We absolutely must not do the Patrician quest. At 4 power, what they want is to entrench their power further and make us more hereditary. They promise the same thing monarchy, feudalism, and all those other crap governments offer - stability. We must deny them this.
 
Umi-san said:
If you want our country to become great again, VOTE FOR INNOVATION!!! Study the Forest! Study the Metal! Study the Forest Burning for the Metal! VOTE FOR KILNS!!!

@maximillian but kiddo... we might lose GA.

Edit: Nvm, we're at 2 stab so we wouldn't. It has to go negative, afaik.
Hmm. So do we want the priest quest to fail, reducing our RA (good) and allowing us to just not devote actions toward them (good) making them hit 1 so they give us shitty quests (not good) and lack the political weight to counterbalance heretical policies (not good), or do we want the Urban Poor quest to fail costing us 2 stab (not good) and continuing their run of shitty quests (not good)...
In either case we'll need to raise stab, i.e. PG. In the Priests Fail case, we go to ~3. In the Urban Poor case, we get back to where we are, 2.
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I aient a kid. Wrong species mate.
 
[X] [Prophet] Ignore him (???)
[X] [React] Study Metal (benefits from Genius Artisan)
[X] [PSN] Main Expand Forest (-2 Centralization + cost)
 
[X] [Prophet] Embrace his new philosophies (-10 Wealth, -1 RA, -1 Legitimacy, -2 Stability, removes Rule of Gold value, ???)
[X] [React] Main Efficient Charcoal Kilns
[X] [PSN] Main Plant Cotton (-2 Centralization + cost)
 
Andres110 said:
@Academia Nut, what "Universal Truth" is the prophet preaching of? What "sophisticated but false" teachings is he claiming the priests teach?
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Here: Universality

It basically is a push against relative and circumstantial facts and a push towards objective universally true things. The drawback is that well...it doesn't recognize mitigating circumstances and realpolitik.

It's philosophically important in the development of formal logic, though applying it everywhere in life goes about as well as you might expect. It's scientifically important in the development of elaborate measurement techniques, though lacking these tools will be agonizing and produce all kinds of hilarity.

Socially it potentially means a push towards these troublesome events:
-Equal punishments for the same crimes. Your social status doesn't matter, nor does the status of the victim but neither does self defense or coercion.
-Judgementalism of foreign parties intensifies. Expect pushes against foreign slavery to show up again, as well as environmentalism, etc. It's all about imposing your standards on others.
-Scientific/experimental rigor. Truth is universal, therefore finding out why similar things produce different outcomes becomes very important.
-Economical universalism...well, bring the popcorn. Attempting to derive a unified value of any commodity or trade good is liable to be a frustrating and very very expensive endeavor.
-People trying to extend their personal experiences as universal truths. Cue offensive stereotypes proliferating.

Teething pains basically.
It's a good and useful philosophy, it just needs some maturation first to develop essential nuances.
Ideally, we have him debate this in public, have his arguments torn apart and then rebuilt stronger than ever.

Narratively, it's a consequence of our choice to Embrace the Absurd(which produced philosophical concepts that are kind of too early for our tech level :p). The universe being contradictory, nothing being certain, the deaths being a terrible loss yet considered a virtue and honor...this is the pushback.
People want some certainty back in their life, something to believe in. Universal cardinal sins to blame for all ills.
 
10ebbor10 said:
The very simple fact there is that the Genius Mystic succesfully predicted a meteor strike. Yeah, at the time we weren't convinced, but now we know.
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She predicted that really horrible thing could happen, not that a meteor strike will decapitate the Thunder Twins. It could be the meteor strike, or quite possibly the drought, which we could predict with astronomy. The priests than give the prediction their own spin on things, which means invading the Thunder Twin.

That said, I am not going to discount astrological predictions. I don't know what it means and it's hard at this stage of development to prove or disprove.

We can't afford to give the prophet what he want straight, and it would be a self-fulfilling prophecy since it would immediately put our government under a crisis. It would also mean that we are uncritically adopting his beliefs without examination. That is not the Ymaryn way.
 
[X] [Prophet] Exile him (+1 RA, ???)

I am actually quite content with any option that doesn't embrace his "universal truth" straight out.

Anyway, Heroic heroes > Genius heroes. Mental stability is underrated.
 
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The Urban Poor Mission is going to fail. I don't mind because they are angry and stupid for trying to get back at someone. The -2 stability is nasty however and combined with the embrace option we will lose -4 stability.

Also I think Patrician should fail. We will never Distribute Land. Many people have said that bad things would happen if we did.
 
WeaponX1023 said:
The Urban Poor Mission is going to fail. I don't mind because they are angry and stupid for trying to get back at someone. The -2 stability is nasty however and combined with the embrace option we will lose -4 stability.

Also I think Patrician should fail. We will never Distribute Land. Many people have said that bad things would happen if we did.
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The priest quest will fail. This is the fulfillment condition for the urban poor mission.
Limited distribute land is okay, just not lots all at once. But we've yet to do it, and there are bigger issues than failing one of their quests.
 
Wait...if we obtain access to new trading partners next turn, will we lose dominance in some of our areas? Rule of Gold would cause us to lose stability....
 
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