Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
maximillian
Civilised Sheep
- Location
- Ranch
And pleasing them by fucking the interests of the other "factions" and Ymar at large sets a bloody bad precedent.
And what nothing? The benefits are plenty.
Wiadi
Uncompromising Radical Leftist
- Location
- Something Clever
- Pronouns
- She/Her
On the other hand, the charcoal kilns were already on the list of things people wanted to take care of, so if we resolve those now then there'll be more free actions we can use on the observatory later. Efficient order of operations - this way, we still get everything we want without risking red RA or taking a Stab hit.
maximillian
Civilised Sheep
- Location
- Ranch
Case in point.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Wiadi
Uncompromising Radical Leftist
- Location
- Something Clever
- Pronouns
- She/Her
How d'you mean?
- Location
- Austria
Kinda weird place to be in, where "too much culture" leads to "warriors grow restless".
I would've preferred spiritial slot+observatory tbh.
Dutch
Bored Spearman of the Wind
- Location
- CET
Called it.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Yep. Can you fish out that old quote where you did, or did the Thread Train run it over?
Am I right in that this dude is working on stuff Plato and Aristotle argued about?
- Location
- Austria
Okay, so? We know it.
Waitwaitwaitshit. Remember the Comet?
We still don't know whether the setting has magic. For all we know, he is right.
[X] [Prophet] Ignore him (???)
[X] [React] Study Metal (benefits from Genius Artisan)
[X] [PSN] Main Plant Cotton (-2 Centralization + cost)
I'm strongly against popping the GA for this. We just got a bunch of pieces in place for absurd innovations and I want to be in a Golden Age for when that happens.
Study Metal seems like a no brainer.
Going with Cotton for the quest, but I'll also be voting for Kilns on our guild action as soon as possible to help the forest situation.
[X] [React] Study Metal (benefits from Genius Artisan)
[X] [PSN] Main Plant Cotton (-2 Centralization + cost)
I'm strongly against popping the GA for this. We just got a bunch of pieces in place for absurd innovations and I want to be in a Golden Age for when that happens.
Study Metal seems like a no brainer.
Going with Cotton for the quest, but I'll also be voting for Kilns on our guild action as soon as possible to help the forest situation.
Abby Normal
High Clerk of the Ymaryn
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Analysis and Diffcheckers -- "Artisan and Trader Prophets"
Diff Checker (Civ Sheet)
Diff Checker (Civ Sheet BBCode)
Not quite back to the previous high of analysis, but a mostly full analysis comes at last!
As expected, econ ended at 17, with 48 culture gained, and 36 mysticism/tech spent, leading to 12 overflow into econ. some of the per turn values are wrong, however-- with only 8 EE, we should be back to 6 cities... 7 if blackmouth were a candidate without an aqueduct but if it were then we'd be getting warnings in the fluff about that. But with a threshold of 15, lower valleyhome should have re-become a true city, leading to [+1-4] econ, [+4-1] EE, and [+9] Wealth.
Unexpectedly, we split off Naval Power as a new stat!It didn't even drain any points from martial, likely due to it being a result of entirely new boat designs.
Wealth income is odd...we added a -2 to maintenance and a -2 to fees. Fees is clearly the trelli, but i'm not sure why our maintenance went up? Neither of our existing maintenance costs are innovation rolls...unless AG applies to the free roll each turn for Grand Docks, and either Philosopher kings is close enough to count, or theres something else i forgot?
Minor changes here, with more mysticism and tech refunds coming in. Interestingly enough, they're all coming at end of turn, despite the delay between the previous ones and these.
We gained 1 Prestige; presumably if we made the games international we'd have gained more prestige?
Also note that without any changes from our actions this turn we'll be maxing out econ and then overflowing 11 points at the end of this turn, which 1. will tank our econ expansion slots since we have only 6 cities, and 2. will either fill out naval or put us over cap on martial, depending on how that works? So keep that in mind for choosing actions.
We went from "some" to "significant" in significant potter wit hteh artisan games and/or the resulting increase in second and third tier artisans.
New military tech category and new tech!
A very interesting, and i think entirely good?
Huh...thats a decent bit weaker than i'd expected from such an expensive project locked behind another project and multiple values... Still, it greatly boosts our innovation abilities, and if i'm reading it right, the innovation spread is either for inward (neighbors to us) or internal (implementation of tech) tech spread, not outward? Also, we have a ridiculous tech income and many boosts to innovation rolls, and in the short term want to spend more stats, so a trade of wealth for innovation is a great deal for us... though we will have to keep in mind that that will apply extra costs to almost all of our developmental actions. Like... aside from stuff like roads and extended projects most things have at least minor innovation chances now. It also lets us benefit much more from heroes and geniuses--if wed somehow had this 10-20 turns ago we'd probably already have managed iron from the extra innovation rolls... and we might have even gotten forest secrets finally
Hmm... sounds like the innovation boost applies to the grand docks bonus, and we rolled well on one or both rolls and got a major breakthrough
Yes, a very very good roll on how this genius turned out, both in temperament and in focus (on metal as opposed to mechanics, since we (i) want steel)
This one...probably less so? He's right, but at the same time, he's right in a way that will shake things up and potentially end our golden age
Ugghh, why couldn't he be even slightly less expensive in stab to embrace... I'm really not sure what to pick here :/ Removing rule of gold might be good...it would tank our gold income, but it would remove potential dangers...the big issue there is what we'd pick up instead...would we get another of the trelli traits? would we maybe get rid of nemesis fashion entirely? hmm...
Factions!
New quests:
Hahaha, fuck no patricians, go away
Interesting...this is...probably more than doable and also good? We should have the benefit of stuff like Arete for this as well as our martial actions, and i imagine trade policy would want to boost up our naval power to protect trade along with getting rid of the pirates? Might also be able to use guild actions to build warships, since regular boats are a guild action? And considering how much of our trade and internal ties are over sea, we really want to start boosting up naval i think.
Stats for each option:
Cotton: (-4 Econ, -3 Econ Expansion, +7 Wealth, +1 Culture, new trade good) [No innovation chance listed, so no wealth penalty)
Forest: (-1 Wealth, -3 Econ, -3 Econ Expansion, grows forest, +4 Econ next turn if in settled and controlled territory, improved odds of success, other effects, +1 Sustainable Forest) [Innovation chance means -1 wealth]
Charcoal Kilns: (-2 Econ & Wealth, -1 Tech, -3 Sustainable Forest used, other effects) [Might be -3 wealth if those "other effects" include innovation]
Temple: -3 econ, -3 culture...and hopefully we'd also get an action spent on the observatory itself, since a level 1 temple is a secondary action? Not sure what that costs...
Study Metal: (-1 Econ, -3 Wealth, -1 Mysticism, improved chance of new insights) [Now costs 3 instead of 2 wealth, but we get 2 rolls boosted by a GENIUS, while having been on the edge of a breakthrough for like a century...so lets get ourselves some steel =D]
Ughh, more actions is great, but we can't boost centralization via roads anymore...
-What determines if we get a megaproject bonus--like the value or free action choices, not the megaproject specific one? I think this is only the third time we haven't gotten one, with those times being the canal, i think the grand docks, and now.
Answer: "Actually... ehhh... yeah, I'll give you a choice of an extra bonus next vote for the Artisan Games completion."
-Wealth per turn in []s doesn't match the value listed in the breakdown
-Should have 4 cities now with only 8 EE
Answer: "I'll adjust that. " (Presumably once next update comes since its not like it actually matters until the next main turn)
-where did the extra -2 to maintenance in wealth come from? We have the new -2 cost on fees for the trelli strait, but the existing maintenance fees weren't innovation rolls, so they shouldn't be increased by the artisan games should they? Unless it counts for grand docks and we have another bonus innovation roll each turn i've forgotten?
Answer: "1 maintenance for your standard innovation roll, 1 maintenance for your Grand Docks roll."
-"innovations of all sort spread more quickly." Is that internal (implementing new tech), inward (neighbors to us), or outward (us to neighbors) spread increase, or some combination thereof?
Answer: "Both" (I assume AN either meant all, or "internal" spread isn't a thing and it boosts both inward and outward spread. Either way, not ideal, means we still get some level of spread to neighbors increased even without making it international.
--On that note, does AG apply to teh grand docks innovation chances?
Answer: "Yes"
-Do we know what the observatories will cost in actions and stats? Will the temple options give us a secondary action put towards them, or will we only get a secondary action instead of a main if we choose those?
Answer: "-You'll get an option in the extended projects bit to build an observatory if there is a temple in the right sort of place." (So it would waste a secondary, and we don't get to know the costs until we have the option, good to know. )
-how does naval being a stat affect overflow?
Answer "Naval is outside stat overflow" (Damn, that would have been really nice to overflow into instead of/in addition to martial...)
-What nations are applicable for nemesis fashion now, and what would their blurb be if we had the usual listing? Like the "Probably trade value" or "Probably In Service to Order"?
Answer: "Nomads"
-Given the potential for both stab and legitimacy hits right now,and relatively low cent, why aren't proclaim glory or enforce justice options for the reaction actions this turn?
Answer: "-Hmmm... not sure in reflection. We'll go with "Factions are interfering because they want their needs met and don't consider this rabble rouser important""
Answer: "Actually... ehhh... yeah, I'll give you a choice of an extra bonus next vote for the Artisan Games completion."
-Wealth per turn in []s doesn't match the value listed in the breakdown
-Should have 4 cities now with only 8 EE
Answer: "I'll adjust that. " (Presumably once next update comes since its not like it actually matters until the next main turn)
-where did the extra -2 to maintenance in wealth come from? We have the new -2 cost on fees for the trelli strait, but the existing maintenance fees weren't innovation rolls, so they shouldn't be increased by the artisan games should they? Unless it counts for grand docks and we have another bonus innovation roll each turn i've forgotten?
Answer: "1 maintenance for your standard innovation roll, 1 maintenance for your Grand Docks roll."
-"innovations of all sort spread more quickly." Is that internal (implementing new tech), inward (neighbors to us), or outward (us to neighbors) spread increase, or some combination thereof?
Answer: "Both" (I assume AN either meant all, or "internal" spread isn't a thing and it boosts both inward and outward spread. Either way, not ideal, means we still get some level of spread to neighbors increased even without making it international.
--On that note, does AG apply to teh grand docks innovation chances?
Answer: "Yes"
-Do we know what the observatories will cost in actions and stats? Will the temple options give us a secondary action put towards them, or will we only get a secondary action instead of a main if we choose those?
Answer: "-You'll get an option in the extended projects bit to build an observatory if there is a temple in the right sort of place." (So it would waste a secondary, and we don't get to know the costs until we have the option, good to know. )
-how does naval being a stat affect overflow?
Answer "Naval is outside stat overflow" (Damn, that would have been really nice to overflow into instead of/in addition to martial...)
-What nations are applicable for nemesis fashion now, and what would their blurb be if we had the usual listing? Like the "Probably trade value" or "Probably In Service to Order"?
Answer: "Nomads"
-Given the potential for both stab and legitimacy hits right now,and relatively low cent, why aren't proclaim glory or enforce justice options for the reaction actions this turn?
Answer: "-Hmmm... not sure in reflection. We'll go with "Factions are interfering because they want their needs met and don't consider this rabble rouser important""
True Cities
[4/4 City Candidates, 2 Free Cities, 8 City Limit]
-Valleyhome [Aqueduct, Baths, Sig. Walls, Capital, Palace] (25 EE Threshold)[4/4 City Candidates, 2 Free Cities, 8 City Limit]
-Sacred Forest [Aqueduct, Sig. Walls] (23 EE Threshold)
-Stallion Pen [Aqueduct, Mass. Walls] (20 EE Threshold)
-Lower Valleyhome [Aqueduct] (15 EE Threshold)
-Redshore [Aqueduct, Baths, Sig. Walls]
-Redhills [Aqueduct, Baths, Sig. Walls]
-Greenshore Capital [Aqueduct, Sig. Walls?] (In Subordinate)
-Western Wall Capital [Aqueduct, Governor's PalaceSig. Walls?] (In Subordinate)
Libraries:
[Total effect: 3 Mysticism Refund]
-Sacred Forest (Temple, Megaproject, +1 Refund by itself)[Total effect: 3 Mysticism Refund]
-Valleyhome (True City)
-Valleyhome (Palace Annex x2 = 1 National Library)
-Stallion Pen (Temple)
-Redshore (True City)
Temples
[4 Total Temple Levels, 1 Natural Wonder]:
-Sacred Forest in Sacred Shore (Lv 2)[4 Total Temple Levels, 1 Natural Wonder]:
-Dragon Graveyard in Stallion Province (Lv 2 + Natural Wonder)
-Amber Road (Subordinate)
Salterns/Salt Mines:
[Support: 2 Trade Posts, 1 Grand Docks]
[Total Effect: +3 Wealth/turn]
-Southshore (Lv 1 Saltern)[Support: 2 Trade Posts, 1 Grand Docks]
[Total Effect: +3 Wealth/turn]
-Northshore (Lv 1 Saltern)
-Heaven's Hawk (Lv 1 Salt Mine) (In Subordinate, Applies to Core Anyway)
Governor's Palace:
[Total Effect: -1 Min/Max Centralization Tolerances, +1 Max Interconnectivity, +0 Admin-Free True Cities]
-Blackmouth[Total Effect: -1 Min/Max Centralization Tolerances, +1 Max Interconnectivity, +0 Admin-Free True Cities]
-Sacred Shore (In Progress 5/9)
-Western Wall (In Subordinate)
Colossal Walls:
None in Core or SubordinatesInterconnectivity - 15/27
[+5 Max Centralization Tolerance. 1 Pending Centralization]
[Formula: 2 + 3*Full_Provinces + Governor's_Palaces]
In-Progress and In-Subordinate Provinces
[Currently have 8 Full Provinces. Next Action increase: +1 Guild Action, +1 Player Action at 9 Full Provinces]
-Northern Blackriver [0/6][+5 Max Centralization Tolerance. 1 Pending Centralization]
[Formula: 2 + 3*Full_Provinces + Governor's_Palaces]
In-Progress and In-Subordinate Provinces
[Currently have 8 Full Provinces. Next Action increase: +1 Guild Action, +1 Player Action at 9 Full Provinces]
-Far North-Eastern Redvalley [2/6]
-Note: AN if you do include this in your version, please fix the subordinate province counts if any are wrong, i just went based on number of actions they got last turn, and wasn't sure on integration <3
-Western Wall - 4 Provinces (4 Ready to Integrate)
-Greenshore - 3 Provinces (0 Ready to Integrate)
-Gulvalley - 1 Province (1 Ready to Integrate) [Expansion Blocked by Neighbors]
-Heaven's Hawk - 1 Province (1 Ready to Integrate) [March, may not be able to expand peacefully?]
-Txolla - 2 Provinces (2 Ready to Integrate) [Underdeveloped; can gain more provinces internally]
-Tinriver - 1 Province (0 Ready to Integrate) [Trading Post, cannot expand]
-Thunder Speakers - 1 Province (0 Ready to Integrate) [Seems Low, but they only get 2 actions?]
-Thunder Horse - 1 Province (0 Ready to Integrate) [Same]
-Amber Road - 1 Province (0 Ready to Integrate) [Trading Post, cannot expand]
Safe Martial Limit - 26 {27}
[Number in {} is safe "non-primary" martial, which refers to the extra martial we gain from econ, listed in {} on the civ sheet]
-Palace Arsenal Annexes (+1)[Number in {} is safe "non-primary" martial, which refers to the extra martial we gain from econ, listed in {} on the civ sheet]
-Iron Age Census (+2)
-International Games (+5)
-Gymnasiums {+1}
Miscellaneous
-1 Secondary Gymnasium: +2 to Games Rolls, +1 Non-Primary Safe[X] [Prophet] Ignore him (???)
[X] [React] Study Metal (benefits from Genius Artisan)
[X] [PSN] Nothing
Tentatively going for ignoring the genius, hoping that we can have some more debating and the like, hopefully can deal with it more next turn. Dont really want to end the golden age... both in general golden ages are great, but also specifically:
-1 we're at 4 turns now. We might have a legacy for golden age duration at 3 turns, but i think its more likely that 5 turns is the first legacy, and i'd like to get at least that. Bonuses for golden ages would be amazing, especially if it makes it easier to enter or stay in a golden age
-2 if we proc tech or mysticism innovations next turn, with geniuses active, that promises to allow for amazing choices. Gain steel from study metal and then a major innovation to steel from a GA innovation next turn? Burn a GA choice on integrating the new prophet's message with less stab hits? Both possibilities i think
Also on the subject, we'll hopefully get a legacy when the GA ends for megaprojects, since we finished one (PttS) in the GA and started and finished one (Artisan Games) fully within it. If its somehow possible i'd like to make the GA last at least 6-7 turns (so 2-3 more) and get another megaproject in...but i find that unlikely honestly
Study metal, because Steel and because we should probably just lose the priest quest.
Going with nothing for PSN because we're at 4 centralization and can't increase it via roads anymore, and i dont htink its worth it to go lower right now. If we need to burn a use to stay in the black on econ in a turn or two, or to pass the yeoman quest, then we can do so in a turn or two, but right now i think we should wait and save some centralization.
Plus, before actions, just looking at pending end of turn income, we're still looking at going 11 stats over into martial and/or naval, which will tank our econ slots and maybe put us in red martial depending on how overflow works with naval. Study metal is net -5 stats in the short term, -4 in the long term (mysticism refund), which helps with that, but plant cotton is +4 stats, and also -3 EE, which means we're back to tanking our EE, which is pretty low right now? Expand forests is better short term, being -3 stats and long term is EE positive, but i dont think its worth the centralization loss right now... still, if need be i'll approval vote on forests or 1 cent cotton over 2 cent cotton.
Last edited:
- Location
- Huezil
" Mystic Genius: I'm a prophet! I came to bring the truth!
Ymarin-Chan: Sit down bitch, be humble."
As far as I see, there is no gain here, only loss.
Seriously though this doesn't strike me as unusual for AN at all. Good things come with a price tag in this quest. Getting a (more) advanced religion is undoubtedly a good thing.
The cost of embracing this guy would fuck us so hard I realistically except us to break as a civ. Any other action is simply a loss of resources... except Ignore, which in my eyes will just make things worse in the long run as this fanatic turns everything into a civil war.
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
We will need to test the hypothesis by ignoring him. If we get hit by some kind of bad event, then he is more credible. If we get good event, then he is less credible. If we got both, then it's a weak maybe.
Or cut him into little pieces and see if he revives. Either or.
Legion0047
Retired Shadowrunner.
- Location
- Austria
- Pronouns
- God Emperor
[X] [Prophet] Embrace his new philosophies (-10 Wealth, -1 RA, -1 Legitimacy, -2 Stability, removes Rule of Gold value, ???)
[X] [React] Study Metal (benefits from Genius Artisan)
[X] [PSN] Main Plant Cotton (-2 Centralization + cost)
[X] [React] Study Metal (benefits from Genius Artisan)
[X] [PSN] Main Plant Cotton (-2 Centralization + cost)
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
What?
I do not see where you get this from? He would have to hit us for another -4 Stability in those ??? and nothing ever has done that.
Unless you mean to say that he will rapidly reshuffle some of our values and make us not Ymaryn anymore? Which is nearly as hard.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Good plan LP of Ctulhus.
- Location
- Huezil
Anything that doesn't get us to 0 stability.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Our best guess is Ignore.
Let him build up steam and then come to debate with us on his own volition. In good Ymaryn fashion!
Other than that Forests + Metal is all the tech all the time.