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Paths of Civilization

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This might be a question that had already been answered, but since the thread is long and its topics labyrinthine in scope and byzantine in convolution, I still feel it necessary to ask:

To what degree does the world of PoC map onto our world? As many have noted, the People appear to have settled the south western region of the Black Sea, but does this confer concordance to geological maps? In other words, is the Mediterranean Sea actually a thing and the Pillars of Heracles are yet to be discovered, as is the great blue yonder? Or are these merely happenstance, with the players projecting our world onto one that just chances to share similarities?

On a somewhat related note, does anyone know if any of the People noted differences in how salty the water tasted in the not!Black Sea compared to the not!Mediterranean Sea? (The difference is 17 ‰ versus 38 ‰ respectively)
 
Mostly, I think? The Mediterranean mostly exists. The Lebanon/Palestine/whatever coast is kinda messed up, and as I understand it many natural resources have been scrambled so we can't just look up resources IRL and transfer them over. On the other hand, we barely have Not!Greece, the Saffron Islands, on our map at all. Anything beyond that is not known. The Informational threadmark at the top has "The best map on the market right now" which is fanmade but AN approved.
 
Chaff said:
This might be a question that had already been answered, but since the thread is long and its topics labyrinthine in scope and byzantine in convolution, I still feel it necessary to ask:

To what degree does the world of PoC map onto our world? As many have noted, the People appear to have settled the south western region of the Black Sea, but does this confer concordance to geological maps? In other words, is the Mediterranean Sea actually a thing and the Pillars of Heracles are yet to be discovered, as is the great blue yonder? Or are these merely happenstance, with the players projecting our world onto one that just chances to share similarities?

On a somewhat related note, does anyone know if any of the People noted differences in how salty the water tasted in the not!Black Sea compared to the not!Mediterranean Sea? (The difference is 17 ‰ versus 38 ‰ respectively)
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Pretty much spot on to what ExNihilo said, with the added information that our climate is more tropical than the normal Black Sea so it seems like the entire region has been shifted south. Possibly compressing the Mediterranean.

There also seems to have been mountain range shifts. For example somewhere south east of Not!Anatolia where the Hathatyn used to live, and where Gulvalley is now, somewhere near the Highlanders is a volcano. Which seems to be the tail end of a mountain chain that goes from there north west across Not!Anatolia and then under the Yllhython Mor(our Black Sea) and then back up as the mountains West Wall has run into.

We also have reason to believe that the Caspian has been messed with. The orientation we think we know is all wrong and the salt of the "Salt Sea" is waaaaaay off. I think the last time it was brought up was that it was a inland sea created wholesale by AN in either the Aral Sea area or in where the Taklimakan Desert is IRL. The latter of which is a bit north of Islamabad and the Himalayas.
 
Megaproject:
The book of learning:
While having the stored knowledge of generations is good and well, the sheer mass becomes quickly overwhelming.
This book contains the way to every book needed to gain full knowledge of any trade you might seek, all organized to build on each other.
Effect: proto standartised schooling.
 
Legion0047 said:
Megaproject:
The book of learning:
While having the stored knowledge of generations is good and well, the sheer mass becomes quickly overwhelming.
This book contains the way to every book needed to gain full knowledge of any trade you might seek, all organized to build on each other.
Effect: proto standartised schooling.
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Sounds like an encyclopedia. Can be undertaken by one man, like Pliny the Elder and his Naturalis Historia.
 
Kiba said:
Sounds like an encyclopedia. Can be undertaken by one man, like Pliny the Elder and his Naturalis Historia.
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it's not really.
it's just an index list.
but we're centralised enough to copy stuff from one librarie to the others so everyone has everything. mostly.
this is an tool to make learning a trade that involves literiacy easier and closes knowledge holes that form over time by.
E: It's basicly"read these books to be qualified by the crown to do your job"
 
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Legion0047 said:
it's not really.
it's just an index list.
but we're centralised enough to copy stuff from one librarie to the others so everyone has everything. mostly.
this is an tool to make learning a trade that involves literiacy easier and closes knowledge holes that form over time by.
E: It's basicly"read these books to be qualified by the crown to do your job"
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Basically the Great Library megaproject?
 
That means we get a free research, right? I usually use that to rush straight to Philosophy. Works well for my tall empires.

But seriously, a great library sounds like a great plan. It probably won't match Alexandria's for a while yet, but getting a Museaum+Library (Primitive University) up and running would do wonders for Ymar and probably Philosopher Kings as well.
 
ExNihilo said:
That means we get a free research, right? I usually use that to rush straight to Philosophy. Works well for my tall empires.

But seriously, a great library sounds like a great plan. It probably won't match Alexandria's for a while yet, but getting a Museaum+Library (Primitive University) up and running would do wonders for Ymar and probably Philosopher Kings as well.
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Free research? Eh. I would just consider it part of a larger megaproject.
 
Kiba said:
Free research? Eh. I would just consider it part of a larger megaproject.
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Ehehe... It was a Civ V joke. The Great Library is probably one of the most powerful early-game wonders, and completion grants one free technology on the tree if you can build it before anyone else. A good boost if you could get it before the AI, often not possible at higher difficulties.
 
Hmmm.

The place that one day might contain Alexandria is probably a port for Khem now, or just some swampy delta.

I'm pretty sure a traditional Alexander the Great conquest is right out, we're probably going to take the strait, so good luck I'm behind 7 vassals.

Alexandria was OTL founded by Iskandar ~350 BCE.

We've got multiple millennia? Yeah, unless something tragic happens and we avoid any of those collapses that happened OTL we probably could. As long as we aren't building some other megaproject because it was shinier than a moon colony.
 
ExNihilo said:
Hmmm.

The place that one day might contain Alexandria is probably a port for Khem now, or just some swampy delta.

I'm pretty sure a traditional Alexander the Great conquest is right out, we're probably going to take the strait, so good luck I'm behind 7 vassals.

Alexandria was OTL founded by Iskandar ~350 BCE.

We've got multiple millennia? Yeah, unless something tragic happens and we avoid any of those collapses that happened OTL we probably could. As long as we aren't building some other megaproject because it was shinier than a moon colony.
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I wouldn't bet on vassals on saving your ass. The Persian empire had a lot of territory, but it did them no good.

That said, if we cultivated loyalty in our vassals, it is likely that they will resist such a conqueror fiercely before giving up.
 
For Persia, the Bosphorous regions were the edge of the empire. For us, it's probably going to be a defended trade hub. Similarly, we probably won't attack Greece like Persia did, so their unification is more in question. We probably will also have better weapons, Walls, and all that jass. We might still lose but we'd definitely put up a fight, assuming Greece/Macedon ever produces him.

Also, the Behind 7 Vassals was mostly supposed to be a reference to an older meme, we'll reinforce the vassal and fight with them against mister I take over empires every other year or so.
 
ExNihilo said:
For Persia, the Bosphorous regions were the edge of the empire. For us, it's probably going to be a defended trade hub. Similarly, we probably won't attack Greece like Persia did, so their unification is more in question. We probably will also have better weapons, Walls, and all that jass. We might still lose but we'd definitely put up a fight, assuming Greece/Macedon ever produces him.

Also, the Behind 7 Vassals was mostly supposed to be a reference to an older meme, we'll reinforce the vassal and fight with them against mister I take over empires every other year or so.
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Wouldn't bet on having the technological advantage. It's a transient advantage.

But, we can surely bet on terrains, cultural reinforcement, forestry, adaptability, reputation, etc. These are hard to replicate systems or values.
 
Kiba said:
Wouldn't bet on having the technological advantage. It's a transient advantage.

But, we can surely bet on terrains, cultural reinforcement, forestry, adaptability, reputation, etc. These are hard to replicate systems or values.
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A part of Persias problem (from my laymans understanding) was that the leadership was incredibly fragile. When the Persian King lost that one battle, Alexander could just take the rest and use the soldiers of his new vassals to snowball.

With the Ymaryn, my impression is that we'd just crown the Heir, raise more armies and drown him in bodies because he is trying to take away our land. So instead of forcing compliance from feudal lords, he is forced into an attritional war against a country with a huge population. At that point, the quality of the troops is just icing on top of the shit cake he gets.
 
Kiba said:
Wouldn't bet on having the technological advantage. It's a transient advantage.
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it's a transient advantage in a period of rapid communication
it's a relatively enduring advantage in a period of very slow tech spread

especially when it comes to things like medicine (difficult to transmit due to dependence on plants, delicate techniques, likelihood of failure, cultural issues) and walls/other infrastructure (requires a lot of effort; some knowhow).
Weapons are easier because they're more of an individual effort thing. Armor is probably harder than weapons, really.

But anyways it will take like ~30 more turns before we can expect iron to hit greece unless the MW have been fracturing and leaking their smiths to the TT who then leak it to the greeks. So if they try to pull an alexander around then we'll still be ahead of them.


Mostly, we just need to conquer Trell and the mountains the TT reside in. If we stick to coastal and mountainous zones we're pretty safe from alexander-style greek invasion, for all that we might end up like troy.

DakkaMania said:
A part of Persias problem (from my laymans understanding) was that the leadership was incredibly fragile. When the Persian King lost that one battle, Alexander could just take the rest and use the soldiers of his new vassals to snowball.
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satrapy, no?
 
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Now imagining the Khemetri Not!Hathor after they got the sacred warding and sacred cows, she's probably mantling the medicine gods.
@Academia Nut what happened to Not!Hathor of the Khemetri Panteon after the introduction of sacred warding?
 
@Academia Nut
  • Have the Khemetri adopted mills and those water-lifting wheels? If not, could we send them some engineers as a make-up gift?
  • Do the Ymaryn and the Khemetri share observatory data? If not, could we start sending them ours as either a gift or an offer to trade?
 
Umi-san said:
it's a transient advantage in a period of rapid communication
it's a relatively enduring advantage in a period of very slow tech spread

especially when it comes to things like medicine (difficult to transmit due to dependence on plants, delicate techniques, likelihood of failure, cultural issues) and walls/other infrastructure (requires a lot of effort; some knowhow).
Weapons are easier because they're more of an individual effort thing. Armor is probably harder than weapons, really.

But anyways it will take like ~30 more turns before we can expect iron to hit greece unless the MW have been fracturing and leaking their smiths to the TT who then leak it to the greeks. So if they try to pull an alexander around then we'll still be ahead of them.


Mostly, we just need to conquer Trell and the mountains the TT reside in. If we stick to coastal and mountainous zones we're pretty safe from alexander-style greek invasion, for all that we might end up like troy.
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Infrastructure is the most enduring advantage. They can have all the knowledge they want, but if they don't have the infrastructure and economy to utilize it, the effect is limited.

Like, even if they get Iron now, they have to find and develop mines, procure the fuel, get the manpower to crush the ore and have the smiths figure out all the tricks. Thats a non-trivial task.

Compound interest is another factor. We are able to maintain a comparatively huge population. The more people we have, the faster the population can grow if we settle new land. We also gain strategic depth, more innovation and all around perform better. Just some tech is of limited use there.
 
Tech's nice because it builds on itself.
but Infrastructure snowballs just that much better and it has direct effects instead of tech which mostly works in the background, with a few exceptions.
it's also badly needed.
And it generates TCs which means more policies.
 
Legion0047 said:
Tech's nice because it builds on itself.
but Infrastructure snowballs just that much better and it has direct effects instead of tech which mostly works in the background, with a few exceptions.
it's also badly needed.
And it generates TCs which means more policies.
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infrastructure snowballs that much better until we overreach, suffer trouble, and then collapse
tech doesn't suffer that problem unless it has massive impacts on societal structure, e.g. law and currency

it's sort of a "do we want to build wide or tall" debate
 
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