Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
- Location
- United States of America, Michigan
I just hope the two cultures won't merge since I can easily see the nomads taking the slave taking practice and the DP getting calvary.
You need to have the whole vote in one post, otherwise your newer vote overrides your elder one, and if you vote for only part of the plan, only the vote for this part will be counted by the tally program.
This is unlikely to happen, in my opinion.
DP's take trophies, heads, from their enemies, the nomads care very much for their families, and hold long grudges. After such trophies are taken, a bitter and long war is much, much more probable.
Last edited:
- Location
- Pilipinas
[X] There is much glory to fighting in the south
-[X] We will offer you safe passage through our lands
[X] No (Keeps Honourable Death)
- i like this idea... though the WC are done for if the Nomads think they are easy pickings... also if the DP are smart enough to bribe/diplomance the Nomads at the start, then the ST will also be in trouble...
@veekie what do you think of the above scenario? the DP bribing/diplomance the Nomads? the option also says there is much glory fighting in the South... but who to fight?
@Academia Nut what does our military advisors say regarding the DP's 'rules of war' i.e. prisoner exchange and so on...
-[X] We will offer you safe passage through our lands
[X] No (Keeps Honourable Death)
- i like this idea... though the WC are done for if the Nomads think they are easy pickings... also if the DP are smart enough to bribe/diplomance the Nomads at the start, then the ST will also be in trouble...
@veekie what do you think of the above scenario? the DP bribing/diplomance the Nomads? the option also says there is much glory fighting in the South... but who to fight?
@Academia Nut what does our military advisors say regarding the DP's 'rules of war' i.e. prisoner exchange and so on...
Last edited:
- Location
- Simi Valley, CA, United States
[X] Contact with the Metal Workers and safe passage for caravans going that way
[X] Northern Nomads (Probably gain Honour Value)
[X] Northern Nomads (Probably gain Honour Value)
- Location
- Austria
zamin
The Watcher in the Dark
Have changed my vote. I originally thought that the nomads would only be sending a few raiding parties south, but it turns out that they're moving their entire clan down there if we asked them to fight the DPs.
So, yeah. Metal is nice, but getting a brand new buffer state between us and the DPs is actually more valuable in my opinion. We can spend a few turns focusing on internal stuff while the nomads and DPs are busy beating up each other. And the best part is that unless something crazy happens the two groups will be stuck in a stalemate.
The DPs must be at war in order to maintain their power, so they can't back down. The nomads don't have settlements for them to raid, so their favorite strategies aren't going to work. The DPs also can't rely on fear to cow the nomads since they're an honorable warrior culture who're probably going to be very upset when they realize what the DPs do to their prisoners. The DPs might try to bribe or diplomacy the nomads once they realize that their usual routine isn't working, but I doubt the nomads would be willing to listen once they're pissed off enough.
And if it's one thing we can trust the DP to do, it's to seriously piss off any group who meets them.
On the other hand, the nomads won't be able to counter the DPs giant fuck off wall. The Spirit Talkers might be able to do something, but since they insulted the nomad's Hero he's unlikely to be interested in teaming up anytime soon. The DPs capital can't be captured, but all the vulnerable settlements around it are easy targets for raiding parties. The DPs will eventually have to set up walls everywhere to try to counter the nomads, which will consume a lot of their valuable actions and economy.
The Spirit Talkers aren't going to be happy that they've got even more competition for the valuable lowlands, but there's shit all they can do about it. They threw away any chance of influencing the nomads when they told the Hero to fuck off and they can't fight the nomads while the DPs are breathing down their necks.
And in the meantime, we get a few turns to shore up our defenses, deal with any internal issues and generally turtle up. Once we get our stability sorted and walls and forests all along our border, none of our neighbors can really hurt us unless they're willing to throw an insane amount of warriors into the meatgrinder. We excel at fighting defensively, so let's force them to come to us for once.
All in all, I fully support this idea. Let's send the nomads south and let everyone else fight for a change. Then once one of the groups collapse (my money's on the WC being the victim), we can swoop in and collect all those poor unfortunate refugees for another big economy boost. Play to our own strengths, rather then our neighbors.
So, yeah. Metal is nice, but getting a brand new buffer state between us and the DPs is actually more valuable in my opinion. We can spend a few turns focusing on internal stuff while the nomads and DPs are busy beating up each other. And the best part is that unless something crazy happens the two groups will be stuck in a stalemate.
The DPs must be at war in order to maintain their power, so they can't back down. The nomads don't have settlements for them to raid, so their favorite strategies aren't going to work. The DPs also can't rely on fear to cow the nomads since they're an honorable warrior culture who're probably going to be very upset when they realize what the DPs do to their prisoners. The DPs might try to bribe or diplomacy the nomads once they realize that their usual routine isn't working, but I doubt the nomads would be willing to listen once they're pissed off enough.
And if it's one thing we can trust the DP to do, it's to seriously piss off any group who meets them.
On the other hand, the nomads won't be able to counter the DPs giant fuck off wall. The Spirit Talkers might be able to do something, but since they insulted the nomad's Hero he's unlikely to be interested in teaming up anytime soon. The DPs capital can't be captured, but all the vulnerable settlements around it are easy targets for raiding parties. The DPs will eventually have to set up walls everywhere to try to counter the nomads, which will consume a lot of their valuable actions and economy.
The Spirit Talkers aren't going to be happy that they've got even more competition for the valuable lowlands, but there's shit all they can do about it. They threw away any chance of influencing the nomads when they told the Hero to fuck off and they can't fight the nomads while the DPs are breathing down their necks.
And in the meantime, we get a few turns to shore up our defenses, deal with any internal issues and generally turtle up. Once we get our stability sorted and walls and forests all along our border, none of our neighbors can really hurt us unless they're willing to throw an insane amount of warriors into the meatgrinder. We excel at fighting defensively, so let's force them to come to us for once.
All in all, I fully support this idea. Let's send the nomads south and let everyone else fight for a change. Then once one of the groups collapse (my money's on the WC being the victim), we can swoop in and collect all those poor unfortunate refugees for another big economy boost. Play to our own strengths, rather then our neighbors.
Last edited:
- Location
- Pilipinas
it can happen, they did start the prisoner exchange concept, also never underestimate your enemies.> DP
> diplomacy
rofl:
- Location
- Austria
While generally true, DPs are the guys whose idea of diplomacy includes walls of skulls. I could see them trying to bully someone into submission, but I somewhat doubt they can succeed against nomads.
Ugh, I can't believe I'm doing this. With all the things we need to do and the number of people who want to go straight for the canal along with the fact that the metal workers seem to be accessible via the water...
[X] There is much glory to fighting in the south
-[X] We will offer you safe passage through our lands
[X] No (Keeps Honourable Death)
I really want metal but we'd have to give up a lot to get it in useful quantities and I don't trust the thread to sacrifice that much. Getting the nomads to fight the DPs will give us the breathing room to make the canal and still be able to solve our other problems, and we'll probably be able to get some amount of metalworking anyway eventually...
I hate doing this but getting metalworking is effectively a mega project in itself and I don't think enough people will get behind it to see it to its completion. Bringing them down to fight guarantees that we get a significant boon no matter what we do or what crisis falls upon us.
[X] There is much glory to fighting in the south
-[X] We will offer you safe passage through our lands
[X] No (Keeps Honourable Death)
I really want metal but we'd have to give up a lot to get it in useful quantities and I don't trust the thread to sacrifice that much. Getting the nomads to fight the DPs will give us the breathing room to make the canal and still be able to solve our other problems, and we'll probably be able to get some amount of metalworking anyway eventually...
I hate doing this but getting metalworking is effectively a mega project in itself and I don't think enough people will get behind it to see it to its completion. Bringing them down to fight guarantees that we get a significant boon no matter what we do or what crisis falls upon us.
- Location
- Austria
Hm.
@Academia Nut , according to our diplomats, is every possible favor acceptable or some are more...daring(?) than others?
@Academia Nut , according to our diplomats, is every possible favor acceptable or some are more...daring(?) than others?
- Location
- Pilipinas
I don't know about that, the DPs are smart enough to change strategies (from raids to massed units) for different kinds of situations. the DPs so far are playing it smart, i don't think they will hold the idiot ball and it is possible that their leadership would realize this.
The DP bribing the nomads I think, would be improbable for a few generations at least. Martial Honor + Family Bonds + Protector of the Weak mean that the DP's idea of tribute is going to offend them on a deep visceral level. Consider what they think about a people who DEMAND that you sacrifice the weak and unwanted of your tribe to spare yourself instead of fighting.
Think of the fury.
The WC are going to be collateral damage...but they already are collateral damage(DPs win, they end up on the Skull Wall, STs win, they wind up exterminated), and Nomads are useful in the sense that they don't fight wars of annihilation(mostly because once they beat you bad enough you don't have anything worth looting or fighting so they go elsewhere)
Ideally STs crush the DPs and then find themselves locked into an endless dance with the nomads. The WC will remain a small state that occasionally donates us a whole lot of refugees?
"Where hawks fight, crows feast"
redzonejoe
Vaguely Pastafarian
- Location
- Canada
[X] There is much glory to fighting in the south
-[X] We will offer you safe passage through our lands
[X] Northern Nomads (Probably gain Honour Value)
-[X] We will offer you safe passage through our lands
[X] Northern Nomads (Probably gain Honour Value)
zamin
The Watcher in the Dark
Bear in mind that the DPs version of diplomacy only works because they have the force to back it up. They always negotiate from a position of power and basically bully everyone into doing what they want.
If the DPs send someone to speak to the nomads, there are 3 possible outcomes
- "You want to fight us? Awesome!" HONOR ACTIVATED
- "You want to raid our settlements? Good luck, scrub." Because nomads, by definition, don't have any vulnerable settlements for the DPs to target
- "You want us to send you some of our family members to be enslaved/sacrificed? Go fuck yourself." PURGE THE HERESY
At this point, I think that we can safely say that every time they meet a new group the DPs will always manage to offend/insult/horrify them in some way. They're reliable like that.
redzonejoe
Vaguely Pastafarian
- Location
- Canada
I'd love a trait like protector of the weak or family bonds. Those are things that would mesh well with our current traits and civilisation, complementing things like justice or harmony.
Honorable death is just... bleh. We should definitely trade it out for a chance at a good martial trait instead.
Honorable death is just... bleh. We should definitely trade it out for a chance at a good martial trait instead.
Main thing is the difference in how to consider the Nomads. The thing about deal making is...it lasts as long as the one who made it stays in power. But power shifts rapidly across the nomads, unless they're in a whole new area, so that ALL the clans descend from one set of chiefs with no other nomads input.
It's closer to dropping an invasive species in than anything else.
Personally I'm aiming for the Nomads gainfully throwing the lowlands into chaos for at least 3 generations, while the Dead Priests lose progress just to keep them off and develop specialized countermeasures.
As long as we keep trading with them, Land of Opportunity would give us another tech transfer + Economy infusion if the horde breaks up, if the Spirit Talkers break up, if the Western Confederacy breaks up...
pbluekan
Somethin's Fucky ...
- Location
- Trumpistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Damn you for being convincing. I wanted my metal. But mass relocation of a friendly buffer state? YES
[X] There is much glory to fighting in the south
-[X] We will offer you safe passage through our lands
[X] No (Keeps Honourable Death)
Family bonds are terrible for us, they'd wreck our communal based(rather than family based) political structure and make it more difficult to absorb large refugee populations. Protector of the weak is the only good one.
Honorable Death just says Die Well. It has good combinations with Harmony, Sacred War and Protective Justice(all based on a reward in the hereafter for obedience and effort today). The Nomads martial traits are actively detrimental to our war efforts.
- Location
- Sydney
Never mentioned border control, or anything similar.
You are arguing that over the course of six months of raiding/traveling DP lands the Death Priests will either not notice, or not think to send their armies towards the Nomads. Nomads succeed by raiding outlying settlements on their side not crossing through to raid the other side. The Death Priests built up their army in their eastern settlements, assuming their military settlement are easy to raid is optimistic.
The walls will not be there, this turn we are sending the Nomads through our lands to the lowlands, next turn some people (you and a five others) want to build walls. I do not think this point makes sense.
Remember the Nomads believe in Keeping Their Word. This generation and the next will not betray their Values that quickly.
We failed because we are the defensive experts, against Nomad speed raiding experts. The Death Priests are the slow raiding experts.
You are claiming that poor raiders failed so differently expert raiders will also fail. It is possible but not as certain an outcome as you predict.
I did not say all the grain is in the Death Priests city. I said "store their grains in granaries mostly in their walled city"
While protector of the weak would be nice, I think family bonds would be very toxic for our culture.
Communal good and communal property are one of the cornerstones of our civilization - and incresed concentration on family would threat to tear it apart, bringing back the corruption we had recently.
Even the problem with the High chief who wanted his idiot son to succeed him would have been far worse were the "family bonds" trait in play.
And all the martial traits the nomads have are bad for us as well.
This said, I can see "Honorable Death" develop to mean that a death after a life in service of the People is a honorable one, like the one chief who warned us of the original lowlanders. This would boost all aspects of our culture, then.
Last edited: