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Paths of Civilization

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We are actually astonishingly far in our understanding of psychology, I must say.

People who would be killed or at least ostracized in most other societies, including many current or recent real life ones, are treated well and are found ways to contribute, and since two of our recent heroes were spirit touched, not necessarily in a menial work either.

I honestly applaud our mind healers.
 
drake_azathoth said:
Unfortunately it seems to also read 'women are USUALLY less awesome, and we're categorizing the exceptions as freaks of nature'. I mean, we'll have strive for equality either way, but I am reasonably sure there's not much of an agenda from the priests with this so much as trying to explain what they see.
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This, pretty much. The People have a way of shrugging their shoulders and going "You don't fit the expectation, but because you are exceptional we can accept that"
 
Academia Nut said:
Elemental Theory

King Rulwyna and her mother Lolwyna were the first to lay out the formalization of alchemy still used today, dividing the composition of the material world up into the Four Primary Elements of Earth, Water, Air, and Fire, divided up by the combination of the Cardinal Pairs of Hot vs. Cool and Wet vs. Dry. Earth is Cool and Dry; Water is Cool and Wet; Air is Hot and Wet; and Fire is Hot and Dry. There are two further elements conceptualized by the alchemists and priests as being essential to the function of the world but not primarily a part of it. These are Vitriol and Quicksilver/Gygo, and are defined of as being Neither Hot nor Cool, Wet nor Dry and Both Hot and Cool, Wet and Dry; these contradictions make them outside the realm of the everyday material world, but of key importance to spiritual function and alchemy. However, which is the element of Neither and which is the element of Both is highly contested. Most alchemists believe that Vitriol - or at least the pure form - is Neither, which allows it to facilitate the transformation of one element to another, but some contest that it must be Both so that it can take and contribute attributes to materials. Research and argument continues, but is hampered by the fact that all agree that there has never been an isolation of a pure element.

Take for example the water one finds in a river or sea. It may seem pure, but if one boils it all away then residues of solid materials can be found - especially in seawater where there is a significant quantity of salt present. If one passes a piece of pottery through a flame it comes away blackened with soot from the flame, indicating the presence of Earth. While some materials are close to the pure forms of the elements, pure elements in of themselves are the workings of the divine. For those without access to the magic of the gods, this is perhaps a good thing, as vitriol can only be controlled by humans when in a suspension of water. Pure vitriol, unbound to a carrier, would surely be lethal to the human form as it rapidly catalyzed random change in everything it touched.

While esoteric ways to combine and manipulate the elements are known to the priests and alchemists, the everyday world has many obvious ways in which the elements interact. Take example the potter. Clay is a combination of Water and Earth, which allows the potter to shape it with ease. The application of Air however removes much of the water, setting the clay mostly in place, while the application of Fire sets it permanently. The application of certain powders adds in tiny solid carriers of Vitriol, which the Fire liberates to promote transformation of the clay into a glaze.

Elements and the Soul

All living things have at least one soul, the Heart Soul, with higher order beings having at least one Mind Soul. It has been speculated that higher order beings still can have more than one Heart and Mind Soul, and even hierarchies of souls and sub-souls. It has been determined that while the elements themselves are not gendered, when manifest in spirits they are. The Hot elements of Fire and Air are masculine - passionate and active but also fickle and explosive; the Cool elements of Water and Earth are feminine - supportive and deliberative but also passive and slower. In a properly balanced body all the elements are present in the correct mixture, with each of the Heart and Mind souls producing a Primary and Secondary element.

In a well balanced man, the Heart Soul is Primary Fire and Secondary Water, while the Mind Soul is Primary Air and Secondary Earth. This gives men exceptional strength and quickness of mind, but also makes them prone to impatience and an excess of emotion. In a well balanced woman, the Heart Soul is Primary Earth and Secondary Air, while the Mind Soul is Primary Water and Secondary Fire. This makes women calm, stable, and patient but also less immediately active. It must be noted that all people contain all elements, and thus men can be patient and women's tempers can boil over, it is simply that they are less prone to these behaviours and attitudes naturally.

It can of course be the case in the imperfect world of the material that imbalanced combinations can occur. The most common is that a soul produces the incorrect Secondary Element, leading to a spiritual imbalance. Excess Fire tends to produce nigh uncontrollable passions, excess Air a flightiness of the mind, excess Water a dullness of the emotions, and excess Earth an ossification of the mind. These imbalances can also shift the masculinity or femininity of a person, leading to a shift in attractions to those around them. The most extreme cases are where there is a mismatch in genders for the Heart and Mind Souls. In these cases the Heart Soul will produce a body of one gender while the Mind Soul will feel as another. In all cases of these imbalances, while it can produce discomfort and alienation from the community, the priests and shamans know the proper rituals to help better align the flows of energy, and in fact the excess can be used to work certain kinds of magic. While not universally accepted, it is believed that same sex attraction can as much be driven by a deficit of properly gendered energy as by an excess.

Third Souls

While the exact cause is hotly debated, there is undeniable proof of those with at least three souls. While these individuals can have disturbed lives, the excess of energy produced by an extra soul can also grant extraordinary physical and magical power. It has been suggested that the Third Soul is fact an artifact of the womb. Metaphysically, while the female body provides an abundance of Water and Earth for the flesh of a child to grow upon, there must also be a storage space for the child's souls within the mother's body in the time between conception and the flesh of the child becoming viable. As all men are descended from the First Mother, it stands to reason that they would also have the room within their Soul Structure for such a space, but it goes unused - some priests contest that this structure is in fact the testes of men, which contains the material for one soul of a child, the mother contributing the other, but as these scholars often argue with each other about which soul the mother contributes and which the father contributes they are not the majority opinion. It is thus posited that under the correct circumstances an additional soul may take up residence within this space, with many pointing to the difficulties of Third Soul individuals have in having children as being indicative of their metaphysical reproductive organs being otherwise occupied. Counter examples of Third Souls having children are usually in turn countered with the fact that twins exist and Third Souls also are often suspected as having four or more souls to account for their abilities, so perhaps the soul womb has sufficient room for up to four more souls.

It is believed that the physical presence of a womb makes women somewhat more likely to become Third Souls, explaining the existence of certain women among the ranks of the martial heroes of the People.

Demon Souls

The definition of a demon is a long standing argument among scholars and priests. While classically a demon is a spirit with no proper function in the material world, making its presence actively disharmonious, some consider the category to be a prior lack of understanding. While once believed to be caused by demonic activity, it is now felt that diseases of decay are caused by human interference into natural processes. Some in fact believe that demons are spirits of Vitriol or Quicksilver, performing tasks that do not make sense within the realm of the primary elements. With the dangers of Vitriol and many metals known if ingested or inhaled, it is believed that some examples of particularly badly affected spirit-touched individuals may not in fact be possession, but Third Souls who have a Vitriol or Quicksilver soul attached rather than a more traditional variation. While all agree that a Vitriol or Quicksilver Heart or Mind Soul would not result in a viable birth, in the Third Soul position survival may be possible, but the introduction of such esoteric elements would produce both exceptional spiritual capacity and a wildly divergent mind and/or body.

In recent years, with further insights from with careful handling of the spirit-touched, it is starting to become recognized that the rituals and spells for aiding those with imbalances of the Primary Elements are inadequate for those with a more esoteric Third Soul. Furthermore, since these elements are directly integrated into their soul structure, exorcism is not only useless but actively detrimental to their health. Determining the difference between demonic possession and an esoteric Third Soul remains an aggressively controversial point of contention between scholars, priests, and shamans.
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Okay guys.

Suck it up and admit that our Scholars, Priests, and Shamans; are fucking awesome peeps. There is so much stuff that they are so close on. So much!
 
Umi-san said:
cultural trouble. Better to fix early, when separate. We don't yet have an obvious "migrate workers" action.
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Isn't symphony and pride in acceptance all about cultural diversity? And what happened to all that goody talk about federation and not being dicks?

The difference in culture and practices may very well spur serious adminstrive, cultural and very likely religious developments. (especially with our high ra, our church would be up to some interesting things, maybe localised churches and conciliarism) It should at the very least create the concept of local laws. Or accepted localised traditions.
 
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ctulhuslp said:
We already have the concept of gender dysmorphia o_O
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gwygoytha. A lot of our metaphysics is descended from priests trying to figure out what the hell was up with her, eventually determining that she had a bunch more soul than was normal. She was rather openly bisexual to the point of taking (and allegedly impregnating) a wife. So, as a result, odd sexuality was marked down as a sign of having more souls than normal. From there it evolved into extra souls just in general messing with sexuality and gender identity. But since the main example we had of this was gwygoytha we also associated more souls with a potential for greatness.
 
Lilithium said:
Okay guys.

Suck it up and admit that our Scholars, Priests, and Shamans; are fucking awesome peeps. There is so much stuff that they are so close on. So much!
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maximillian said:
Isn't symphony and pride in acceptance all about cultural diversity? And what happened to all that goody talk about federationa and not being dicks?

The difference in culture and practices may very well spur serious adminstrive, cultural and very likely religious developments. It should at the very least create the concept of local laws. Or accepted localised traditions.
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How is migrating people w/ mainstream cultural values into a) PTSD-chan, b) I'm Constantly Vassalized And Then "Rebel-kun", c) We Just Got Nuked And All Our Horses Killed "Thunder-Onii" going against pride in acceptance, much less symphony? All it does is reduce the likelihood that they'll break off and be irritating like the north was. If anything, mixing promotes these values.

I don't want localized laws. I want universal standards w/ a flexible approach to religious traditions but a stern outlook on crime, violence, and bigotry.
 
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Like the thing about speculating about balls being there the third soul goes, when they are indeed what becomes of the structure that would otherwise be the ovaries in a female. Ain't shit crazy coincidences? They have no idea, but their theory still has some elements of not being entirely wrong if you look at it.

Yay gonads!
 
Lilithium said:
Like the thing about speculating about balls being there the third soul goes, when they are indeed what becomes of the structure that would otherwise be the ovaries in a female. Ain't shit crazy coincidences? They have no idea, but their theory still has some elements of not being entirely wrong if you look at it.

Yay gonads!
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Give it some time and the concept may gain traction and then expand to other living things in the environment.

I'm trying to figure out how we could evolve a theory of inheritance from this but I'm drawing a blank.
We are going to need to experiment with trees and horses and a lot of other things in order to notice.

E: Anyway, I'm gonna take a nap. Been awake for nearly 20 hours. See ya!
 
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BungieONI said:
Give it some time and the concept may gain traction and then expand to other living things in the environment.

I'm trying to figure out how we could evolve a theory of inheritance from this but I'm drawing a blank.
We are going to need to experiment with trees and horses and a lot of other things in order to notice.
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A Temple in Horsevalley that solidifies what the current holy site is doing with horses and hawks would help.
 
Umi-san said:



How is migrating people w/ mainstream cultural values into a) PTSD-chan, b) I'm Constantly Vassalized And Then "Rebel-kun", c) We Just Got Nuked And All Our Horses Killed "Thunder-Onii" going against pride in acceptance, much less symphony? All it does is reduce the likelihood that they'll break off and be irritating like the north was.

I don't want localized laws. I want universal standards w/ a flexible approach to religious traditions but a stern outlook on crime, violence, and bigotry.
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Liberty is irritating only to tyrants.

and it goes against symphony and acceptance because it is us saying, hmm thier culture is filth and we should get rid of it and put our inherently superior culture in its place.

As for universal laws, for laws to be just and suited to their purpose and area, they must be localised. To set a universal law is to hold it and its makers in abject superiority to everything else.

Let standards be universal if you truly must (it is a lesser tyranny, one that the church would facilitate by its own initiative) but let the locals interpret and apply them in accordance to this will. Only when power is divided down to the lowest level feasible is liberty assured, and with it happiness. And provincial laws are very much feasible.
 
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BungieONI said:
Give it some time and the concept may gain traction and then expand to other living things in the environment.

I'm trying to figure out how we could evolve a theory of inheritance from this but I'm drawing a blank.
We are going to need to experiment with trees and horses and a lot of other things in order to notice.
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If you mean genetic inheritance we kinda do, but when it comes to humans we associated it with slavery and such due to Trelli. So even our curious King decided better not when it came to Yenyna breeding. That he'd been happy if she did have a kid but otherwise anyone who pushed it would get smacked and given black soil duty.

Puts the shaman who said now kiss in perspective.
 
Umi-san said:
How is migrating people w/ mainstream cultural values into a) PTSD-chan, b) I'm Constantly Vassalized And Then "Rebel-kun", c) We Just Got Nuked And All Our Horses Killed "Thunder-Onii" going against pride in acceptance, much less symphony? All it does is reduce the likelihood that they'll break off and be irritating like the north was. If anything, mixing promotes these values.

I don't want localized laws. I want universal standards w/ a flexible approach to religious traditions but a stern outlook on crime, violence, and bigotry.
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Yeah, what we're looking for from Influence Subordinate is not cultural subordination but syncretism, bringing us closer to mutual understanding. Maybe they'll turn up something really special in the process!
 
TBH, ordinarily I'd be worried about the cultural buy-in of our former Thunder Horse refugees and occupants. But at this point our religion is king of the hill and it informs most of our culture.
 
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maximillian said:
Liberty is irritating only to tyrants.

and it goes against symphony and acceptance because it is us saying, hmm thier culture is filth zero we should get rid of it and put our inherently superior culture in its place.

As for universal laws, for laws to be just and suited to their purpose and area, they must be localised. To set a universal law is to hold it and its makers in abject superiority to everything else.

Let standards be universal if you truly must (it is a lesser tyranny, in fact that that church would facilitate by its own initiative) but let the locals interpret and apply them in accordance to this will. Only when power is divided down to the lowest level feasible is liberty assured, and with it happiness. And provincial laws are very much feasible.
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It's not saying their culture is filth it's saying we need to bring them in line w/ the rest of us and establish a sense of duty and loyalty toward us by migrating people who live in our heartland into their land. Mixing establishes common rapport among those we migrate into and back at home as the migrants relate their experiences home.

Laws don't need to be localized to be just and suited to their purpose. They just need to be satisfactorily broad and give the local enforcers some leniency, the tools to enforce them, and provide a corrective pressure on the local enforcers in order to ensure that they're not abusing their power. I.e., yeah, the second plan. But w/ the caveat that some laws - trade laws, crime laws - need to be universal and strict. Crime can not be permitted. The abuse of others cannot be permitted. And having things w/ inequal costs that isn't the result of an inability to produce them locally cannot be permitted because it's just too damned messy.

Edit: How dare you claim I don't support liberty? I do, I just also support interdependence and a pressure toward civilizational rather than ethnic nationalism. Subversive movements aiming toward secession are an irritant toward any civilization, tyrannical or otherwise.
 
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So, a bit of rambling about the bolide impact. I give no guarantees that any of this is in the least bit accurate, it's done purely for fun.

Academia Nut said:
It was like a shooting star, but like the sun was to a campfire. A tremendous streak of fire and light, it cleared the horizon in an instant, leaving an orange smear across the sky and smaller shooting stars trailing like courtiers in a king's retinue. Several heartbeats of terrified staring upwards and those who had been in their tents scrambling out to find out what had just happened, and a wall of sound crashed into their position. Tents were knocked over, and ears, eyes, and noses bled at the tremendous volume. More than one person was permanently deafened, and even those who regained their hearing knew that it had been diminished by the event. Many horses were also lost as they broke free from where they had been tied and ran away in blind panic at the cacophony.

A short time later, just as the camp was desperately trying to put out what fires had been set by knocked over torches and lamps and the first people were running to consult the confused and terrified priests, everyone nearly jumped out of their skin again when another whipcrack wall of sound passed them by, coming from the east rather than from above like last time. Looking to the east, they could see an ugly early dawn sitting there for far too many heartbeats before the sky faded to a strangely muted version of its usual brilliance.

The scouts that pressed forward the next morning were still concerned for the enemy, but they were perhaps more terrified by the prospect of the unknown and the working of the gods.

They found no resistance.

The army spent days picking forward into Thunder Horse territory through a haze of dust and ash, finding confused and terrified survivors who were far more interested in the fact that they had found humans rather than the wrath of the gods. Eventually they made their way to what had been one of the great cities of the western portion of the Thunder Horse territory. It was vaguely recognizable by what was left of its walls and the knowledge that a small river had run nearby, but of the tens of thousands of people or their major structures... naught but a few charred poles of wood amidst ash and pulverized stone. Several people began to shake in terror and disgust when they started to work out that logically some of the ash in the air had to be human.
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So, a few thoughts about our bolide impact.

First of, assumptions. I assume that our army was 200 km away from the detonation side, that at that point of it's trajectory the meteoroid was at 20km altitude and that the air burst occurred at 5 km altitude. This gives us a very shallow impact angle or roughly 5 degrees, which encourages the idea of an air burst.

200 Km From impact side
Asteroid height : 20 km above surface

First thing we note, is that this thing is loud. We have people being permanently deafened, instantly. That means that the sound pressure level lies between 120 and 150 decibel, possibly even louder. Tents are being thrown, which all in all is rather mild. It could have easily been far worse, with most of the army being thrown around. Anyway, as a person with limited experience with iron age tents, I'm going to arbitrarily decide that wind speed here is 70 km/h.

It is surprising that the actual detonation is less powerful than the passing of the meteor. This supports my theory that the detonation site was far away, and the angle shallow and thus the passage low.

Secondly, the radiant heat is described as being as hot as that of a campfire. Now, I don't have any stats of how hot campfires are, as it varies between fires, but I do know that the radiant heat flux on a sunny day is roughly 1 kw/m^2. Trust me, it doesn't matter too much. Now, if we assume that it this moment, the meteoroid is still 20 km above the surface, then it's total heat output is 1.25 TW.

At this distance, damage is limited.

150 Km from impact site
Asteroid height : 16.8 km above surface

Here, the wind picks up, now blowing at 100 km/h. Buildings start suffering structural damage, trees are uprooted, people are knocked over. About equal to a severe storm.

Sound intensity now lies between 123 and 153 Decibel. It's effect is no noticeably different than before. Don't expect this to change.

Radiant heat is now 1.4 kW/m^2, still not noticeably different.

100 KM From impact site
Asteroid height : 12.8

Wind speed picks up rapidly, reaching 170 km/h. Anything not nailed down is thrown through the air. We're now dealing with a category 2 hurricane. Note however that this wind blast is temporary, not sustained. Even so, most structures will be heavily damaged. Entire forests will be uprooted.

Sound intensity is now between 127 and 157 Decibel.

Radiant heat is now 2.44 kW/m^2. This the exposure of an average firefighter, and hence uncomfortably hot. Burns will occur after prolonged exposure, people may suffer from sunburn.

75 KM From impact site
Asteroid height : 10.9

Wind speed picks up rapidly, reaching 235 km/h. Lots of stuff being thrown around now. Strength equivalent to a category 4 Hurricane blast.

Sound intensity is now between 130 and 160 Decibel.

Radiant heat is now 3.36 kW/m^2. Burns become more rapid and serious. Painfull to walk around in.

50 KM From impact site
Asteroid height : 9

Wind speed picks up rapidly, reaching 345 km/h.

Sound intensity is now between 133 and 163 Decibel.

Radiant heat is now 4.93 kW/m^2. Second degree burns within 30 seconds upon exposure.

25 KM From impact site
Asteroid height : 7 km
Wind blast now 570 km/h
Sound intensity is now between 138 and 168 Decibel.
Radiant heat is now 8.16 kW/m^2. Second degree burns within 15 seconds upon exposure.

0 KM From impact site
Asteroid height : 5 km
Wind blast now 1120 km/h
Sound intensity is now between 144 and 174 Decibel.
Radiant heat is now 16 kW/m^2. Skin forms second degree burn blisters within 5 seconds. Wood undergoes pyrolysis spontanously, things catch on fire automatically.

Airburst
Unleashes 5-30 Megatonnes of energy



Anyway, this completely reliable and 100% trustworthy analysis suggest that the majority of the people would not have been killed immediatly. Suggestions are that most of them were injured, and then finished by firestorms touched of by escaping fires or radiant heat. Those who survived that would like be done in by shock, thirst, hunger or wildlife.

I do think I understated the heatflux, as I expected more of that.
 
Note that as a fan of Fire Emblem, a strategic game where part of your success depends on how powerful your first gen's children are, I am not truly opposed to fictional fantasy eugenics in order to create the most OP and adorable cinnamon roll heir.

Fire Emblem: where shipping/stat charts/eugenics are correlated and part of playing the game.
 
huh, you know it just occurred to me. these days we want a high resting Cent. It used to be we had no reliable release value and our best stab raiser upped cent, so every point between red cent and the resting point was precious. Now it looks like we can bleed 1 to 2 cent a turn easily for benefits. We should probably spend the next few turns making roads to up our centralization so we can take advantage of the mid turn forestry options.
 
It's neat how the arguments in the thread match the development in the story, and actual history. Moral beliefs constantly struggling against practical demands, with alternate impressions of both complicating things.

Anyway, magic is totally real and you're ugly if you disagree with me. :V
 
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