Y'know, I almost feel sorry for the HK because their play is basically logical, they just lost.

If you're neighboring Kebab and you see they just got into war with Mamluks and that Qara Qoyunlu just ran over Aq Qoyunlu and also want to fight Kebab, that's basically the best shot you're ever going to get to go take a swing at them also.

It, uh, just so happened that they all got individually peaced out before the Mamluks could make enough gains to seriously threaten them and then they got beaten too.
 
We DO need more infrastructure to get Salterns, Roads, Annexes, etc. You are making it sound like an Infrastructure Policy is going to go out there and build nothing but aqueducts, which isn't at all what we should expect.
Yeah, see, this is why I'm legit confused here. Passive Policies are supposed to be semi intelligent, right? They build things we need, as I understand it. Every argument I've seen against Infrastructure basically assumes that it's going to build nothing but the only thing that could hurt us (Aqueducts) and ruin us, when it's quite likely that it'll build roads since we need Centralization.

I'm not saying it's impossible for it to build too many Aqueducts, but we can always use some actions on Trails to get us back on track if need be. Am I missing something here? Because it seems like we're avoiding making use of our OP Iron Age Law and Heroic or Genius Admin bonus to Infrastructure based on some pretty small fears, and we have an unreal amount of Infrastructure work to do.
 
This is the point.

Free cities are going to cause an admin shakeup. Give our government time to adapt.
Right now, it would take us 3 turns to get 3 more Aqueducts. If we go to 5 progress a turn, it would take us only 2 turns. That doesn't strike me as a meaningful difference.

And I call BS on us going for more than 3 aqueducts right now.

And it's a really shitty chance.
We really don't know what kind of chance it is; we've had only two Extended Projects proc via passive policy, and both were pretty urgently needed (the Great Hall Extension, which we had set aside room for, and the Aqueduct that Redshore had been asking for for generations). Who knows how things will go once we actually have enough free progress to do anything?
 
And it's a really shitty chance.

We're just going to have to bite the bullet and do it manually.
Yeah, it's not gonna make roads in the near future. There's too much other critical infrastructure that it'd rather build first. Things that make our people better at doing their jobs. Things that give us more stat drips or refunds, things that make our people stronger and better and healthier people.

Our roads are not in an amazing state, but the rest of our infrastructure is even worse.
 
We can punish them, but taking their land is more trouble than it's worth. But biting it and salting the ground isn't the Ymaryn way.
Of course not. I have said so myself: We do not destroy civilizations. But we do conquer and absorb them, like we did with HK's sibling. I do not see how taking their land is more trouble then it's worth. It makes Txolla far less exposed, and means our capital isn't so uncomfortably close to the border anymore. And we have room for more subordinates.

So far, other than us, only the MW and we have iron. The MW are an isolated, secretive lot, so they won't spread it. And as for the HK, well, we'll have to reign them in. Which isn't mutually exclusive with also trying to make more discoveries and thus staying at the technological forefront.
 
We DO need more infrastructure to get Salterns, Roads, Annexes, etc. You are making it sound like an Infrastructure Policy is going to go out there and build nothing but aqueducts, which isn't at all what we should expect.

Furthermore, if the Infrastructure Policy wants to build even a large number of aqueducts (say, 3-4), it will do that over time regardless. Throttling the policy just means that it takes longer, so we never get to move on to our other Extended Megaprojects.
We'll be getting another two true cities within two turns (Stallion Tribes and Redshore). Whatever action that we don't take now, we'll probably take then. We are currently being threatened by three nomad hordes and are planning to attack our neighbor.

I'd prefer to have another significant wall and more extensive forest coverage than 1.33 secondaries worth of infrastrucure.
 
What exactly are you basing this on?

Roads aren't explicitly listed under the infrastructure policy and aren't an extended project. AN has said it's possible to build them with the policy under some circumstances, but that could just as easily mean when we've taken them fourteen times, or some other qualifier we haven't yet met.
 
What exactly are you basing this on?
Try the fact that Roads don't make the listed set of infrastructure and that our provinces have never liked raising Centralization outside of a crisis where it'd explicitly help.
Adhoc vote count started by Candesce on Jul 31, 2017 at 2:41 AM, finished with 90663 posts and 95 votes.
 
[X] [Hero] The next heir was forged in this war (Guaranteed Heroic heir in the next main turn)
[X] [Policy] Defence (+1 significant walls/turn) x1
[X] [Policy] Innovation (Extra innovation roll each turn)
 
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Heroic Mystic King looking over a spiritually damaged Genius Martial, what might that do?
[] [Mystic] Study her condition only slightly
[] [Mystic] Get assistance from a temple (-1 Mystic)
[X] [Mystic] Search the entire kingdom for someone who might understand her and put her at ease (-1 Mystic, -1 Econ, -1 Wealth, -1 Culture)

The Trials of an Age are ending, but the cauldron still boils with the spark of genius. Pick another hero
[] [Hero] The next heir was forged in this war (Guaranteed Heroic heir in the next main turn)
[X] [Hero] The smiths working overtime produced a prodigy (Heroic to Genius level artisan)
[X] [Hero] The battlefield created a peerless medic (Heroic to Genius level medical mystic)
[] [Hero] One of the negotiators truly shone among the Khemetri (Heroic to Genius level diplomat)
[] [Hero] Organizing all of this was hell, but one clerk refused to buckle (Heroic to Genius level administrator)
Either medical or mechanical tech

Reorganize provinces?
[X] [Prov] Integrate Gulvalley (-4 Diplo, +3 Econ, +8 Econ Expansion, +2 Mysticism, +3 Culture, +1 Tech, new core province)
[] [Prov] Integrate Stallions (-6 Diplo, +5 Econ, +5 Econ Expansion, +8 Mysticism, +4 Culture, +2 Tech, +10 Martial, new core province)
[] [Prov] Draw on Provinces (-4 Diplo, -8 Econ Expansion, transfers a total of 8 Martial and 8 Econ from periphery states into the core)
[] [Prov] Rebuild Army first (Main Raise Army)
[] [Prov] Leave the situation be for the moment

Pick a Reaction Project
[] [React] Build more aqueducts (-2 & -3 Econ to complete aqueducts in Redshore and Redhills)
[] [React] Main Build Glassworks
[] [React] Main Expand Econ
[] [React] Main Expand Snail Cultivation
[] [React] Main Expand Vineyard
[X] [React] Main Plant Poppies
[X] [React] Megaproject - The Games
-[X] [React] Kick Megaproject
Wealth or MP

Pick Two Passive Policies (Infrastructure x1 + Defence x1 already active
[] [Policy] Agriculture (+1 Econ and -1 Econ Expansion/turn)
[] [Policy] Diplomacy (+1 Diplo/turn)
[] [Policy] Trade (+1 Wealth/turn)
[] [Policy] Armament (+1 Martial/turn)
[] [Policy] Patronage (+1 Culture/turn)
[] [Policy] Mysticism (+1 Mysticism/turn)
[] [Policy] Industry (+1 Tech/turn)
[] [Policy] City Support (2 True Cities have their maintenance paid for each turn)
[] [Policy] Expansion (So long as there is land to expand into, +1 Econ Expansion/turn, reduces threshold to produce new provinces the longer active)
[X] [Policy] Innovation (Extra innovation roll each turn)
[X] [Policy] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x1
[] [Policy] Defence (+1 significant walls/turn) x1
[] [Policy] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns)
[] [Policy] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates)

Pick a bonus for retaining King of the Hill in a Great Power War
[] [Bonus] Gain a random value slot
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade a random value
[] [Bonus] Free Main Proclaim Glory
[] [Bonus] Free Main Build Theatre
[X] [Bonus] At least two technology upgrades (exploding rolls)
 
This is not good. We're going to go far over the Martial cap and we're losing stability over a warrior-based megaproject. I don't see this going well.

Also, guys, Gulvalley needs our help. We should integrate them instead of the Stallion Tribes. It'll help them greatly, it won't put us over our Martial cap just as we're about to lose more Stability, and it'll more easily let us build the Khemetri Trade Route megaproject.
 
@Academia Nut, what will Gulvalley do next turn if we don't integrate it, given that it doesn't have many places to expand to?

[X] [Mystic] Search the entire kingdom for someone who might understand her and put her at ease (-1 Mystic, -1 Econ, -1 Wealth, -1 Culture)
[X] [Hero] The next heir was forged in this war (Guaranteed Heroic heir in the next main turn)
[X] [Hero] The smiths working overtime produced a prodigy (Heroic to Genius level artisan)
[X] [Prov] Integrate Gulvalley (-4 Diplo, +3 Econ, +8 Econ Expansion, +2 Mysticism, +3 Culture, +1 Tech, new core province)
[X] [React] Main Expand Snail Cultivation
[X] [React] Main Plant Poppies
[X] [Policy] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x1
[X] [Policy] Defence (+1 significant walls/turn) x1
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade a random value
[X] [Bonus] At least two technology upgrades (exploding rolls)
 
Yeah, see, this is why I'm legit confused here. Passive Policies are supposed to be semi intelligent, right? They build things we need, as I understand it. Every argument I've seen against Infrastructure basically assumes that it's going to build nothing but the only thing that could hurt us (Aqueducts) and ruin us, when it's quite likely that it'll build roads since we need Centralization.

I'm not saying it's impossible for it to build too many Aqueducts, but we can always use some actions on Trails to get us back on track if need be. Am I missing something here? Because it seems like we're avoiding making use of our OP Iron Age Law and Heroic or Genius Admin bonus to Infrastructure based on some pretty small fears, and we have an unreal amount of Infrastructure work to do.

They are intelligent.

They also don't have any other options.
Passive infrastructure policy builds:
-Salterns - We currently have 2 slots. They will be done in 2 turns with the current SINGLE policy.
-Aqueducts - Will spawn cities. We have 5 slots, they will take 20 Progress to finish. With the current SINGLE policy, this takes 6 turns to spawn 5 more cities. Think about that.
-Temples - Will spawn cities(citation, Sacred Forest, Stallion Pen both had a forced aqueduct alert happen within 6 turns of building them.), will also raise Religious Authority. We have 15 slots, one of which is already a city, we can build one per turn. Take a moment to consider that.
-Governor's Palace - Will spawn cities(citation, Palace building in Redshore would have triggered an aqueduct alert). We have, presumably 6 slots, one for each province. We can build one per turn.

Ergo, Passive infrastructure policy will be spawning cities, because optimistically if they built up a single location to max rather than spread them around, we already will finish one extended project per turn, so we will get a new city every 3-5(accounting for libraries) turns without more Policy directed to it. A second policy halves the timespan needed.

It's like staying on Offense policy while at Yellow martial and then being surprised when you go into Red martial because they can only take actions that raise Martial. Or on Expansion policy and then being surprised when your border grows rapidly.
 
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[X] [Mystic] Search the entire kingdom for someone who might understand her and put her at ease (-1 Mystic, -1 Econ, -1 Wealth, -1 Culture)
[X] [Hero] The smiths working overtime produced a prodigy (Heroic to Genius level artisan)
[X] [Prov] Integrate Gulvalley (-4 Diplo, +3 Econ, +8 Econ Expansion, +2 Mysticism, +3 Culture, +1 Tech, new core province)
[X] [React] Megaproject - The Games
[X] [Policy] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns)
[X] [Policy] Innovation (Extra innovation roll each turn)
[X] [Bonus] At least two technology upgrades (exploding rolls)
 
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Ergo, Passive infrastructure policy will be spawning cities, because optimistically if they built up a single location to max rather than spread them around, we already will finish one extended project per turn, so we will get a new city every 3 turns without more Policy directed to it. A second policy halves the timespan needed.
When integrating the Stallions we also get the Canal extended project in their territory, and you're forgetting about Colossal Walls and Governor's Palaces. And we're likely to get dams as an extended project once we finish the first one. And each city with a temple in it supports 2 libraries.

Getting 1 aqueduct every 5 turns is a pretty reasonable amount IMO. Especially since aqueduct only means city if we get low enough on econ expansion.
 
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[X] [Hero] The smiths working overtime produced a prodigy (Heroic to Genius level artisan
[X] [Prov] Integrate Gulvalley (-4 Diplo, +3 Econ, +8 Econ Expansion, +2 Mysticism, +3 Culture, +1 Tech, new core province)
 
Getting a new kind of Sacred Warrior could be nice, but I think it stems from her unique cocktail of mental disorders and trauma and probably can't be outright taught. Studied, maybe, like the Spirit Talkers and their berserkers.
Beserkering doesnt work well against highly disciplined highly skilled armoured opponents and from what we've seen she gets calmer in battle rather than beserk. I think she may have figured out a martial art that aids against armoured opponents,
 
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