India had wootz mass production IIRC.
They even managed to skip the manpower demands of pumping the bellows by using the ocean breeze to pump it with wind power.

Still, it's freakishly lucky to get that, so it'd be nice but don't count on it.
You are correct as far as I can tell.

Looking at the requirements for wootz I think we have a couple of hurdles:
We need crucibles in charcoal furnaces and black magnetite. We have no sources of magnetite such as this so that's out.
We also need a means to shorten the man hour requirement. We have trip hammers to do this.

So we have to do it with wrought iron and very very carefully control the carbon content. I don't think we will be able to make it quickly, as looking at it, it seems to slot nicely into a Gromril equivalent. You need really skilled smiths and time to get it right.

More normal steels though should be feasible.


Welcome!
 
They even managed to skip the manpower demands of pumping the bellows by using the ocean breeze to pump it with wind power.

Funny enough with our aqueduct and a Windcatcher - Wikipedia tower, we could make a Blast Furnace to make enough cast iron, them mix it with wrought iron to make wootz steel, the true problem is giving time to people see the actual proportion of wrought-cast iron, that will fuse and make wootz...

Urgh... we need the royal artisans right now.
 
Funny enough with our aqueduct and a Windcatcher - Wikipedia tower, we could make a Blast Furnace to make enough cast iron, them mix it with wrought iron to make wootz steel, the true problem is giving time to people see the actual proportion of wrought-cast iron, that will fuse and make wootz...

Urgh... we need the royal artisans right now.
Arseeeeeenaaaaaals all the waaaaaaaaaaay!

We've done the best we can setting the stage, now we gotta hope they figure it out.

My hope is that they figure out a way to make cast iron in large quantities and a use for it. That would be a good opener to all these other things we are speculating about.

My biggest hope is that we hit upon steels of some form.
 
I've actually been digging deeper and it looks like one of the keys to wootz steel is plant matter. Like leaves and woody biomatter. These form the basis for the carbon nanotubes that permeate the metal and give it some of it's properties, as carburizing additives.

There are also cementite nanowires permeating it.

So I think the most logical way for it to be discovered accidentally is for leaves and other woody matter to get into a forge making wrought iron and a lot of luck.
 
IIRC it happens because the heir position is elected, and people give you That Look if you try to appoint your own child. Barring special merit, you would basically bargain with another noble family to appoint their guy heir in exchange for their vote for yours the next time the heir position comes around.

This is how we wind up with thoroughly mediocre Kings between awesome ones in the meantime. Our awesome kings ruin the cycle, and often aren't part of the top level game, so you get shitty compromises because nobody wants to elect someone TOO GOOD and then giving them the power to permanently vote themselves King.


India had wootz mass production IIRC.
They even managed to skip the manpower demands of pumping the bellows by using the ocean breeze to pump it with wind power.

Still, it's freakishly lucky to get that, so it'd be nice but don't count on it.
I mean, that's the ideal, yeah, and how it works at the king level. I'm asking about the lower levels, if things have devolved enough over the years that the province or sub-province or settlement chiefdoms have become 1-family deals, or something like Family A as chief, Family B as admin chief, family C as war chief, etc, because that would be rather hidden to us since the narrative focuses on the king usually.
 
A couple of things:
Plate armor is relatively easier to make for bronze than for iron, you use molds for bronze, so any large shape you could bake clay into works. With iron equipment, plate requires either extensive manpower investment to forge, or a hammer mill to just make the metal flat for the smith to use.
So for us, it's largely a matter of implementing the idea, it's actually cheaper to make plate than scale armor once you have hammer mills.
Considering scale is generally considered cheaper to make than maille, and I don't really see any indication that iron/steel plate armor was common before the late medieval era (outside of the segmentatum- but that has it's own issues) I'm going to be a bit skeptical. Lorica segmentatum wasn't super popular from what I understand, lorica squamata was a kind of scale, and lorica hamata was a hauberk. Everything I've seen suggests that the segmentatum was maintenence intensive and more expensive to make and maintain than the hamata, and that implies squamata was even cheaper.

I mean, Byzantine Cataphracts, the proto-typical knights, fought wearing heavy maille or scale when the Byzantines still should have had enough knowledge to use trip hammers to make sheets of iron less expensive.

Simply put, there's probably a reason the Romans didn't say fuck it and just make munition armor (possibly over maille or scale) standard issue.
 
I've actually been digging deeper and it looks like one of the keys to wootz steel is plant matter. Like leaves and woody biomatter. These form the basis for the carbon nanotubes that permeate the metal and give it some of it's properties, as carburizing additives.

There are also cementite nanowires permeating it.

So I think the most logical way for it to be discovered accidentally is for leaves and other woody matter to get into a forge making wrought iron and a lot of luck.

The answer is that we have colonies near India to absorb wootz metal secret?
 
I've actually been digging deeper and it looks like one of the keys to wootz steel is plant matter. Like leaves and woody biomatter. These form the basis for the carbon nanotubes that permeate the metal and give it some of it's properties, as carburizing additives.

There are also cementite nanowires permeating it.

So I think the most logical way for it to be discovered accidentally is for leaves and other woody matter to get into a forge making wrought iron and a lot of luck.
Naw, remember we know to keep smelters dry because when moisture gets in, they can explode. We'd be unlikely to make a discovery that way because we keep them scrupulously clean.

However, we use charcoal for fuel, so it's already got carbonized plant matter.
I mean, that's the ideal, yeah, and how it works at the king level. I'm asking about the lower levels, if things have devolved enough over the years that the province or sub-province or settlement chiefdoms have become 1-family deals, or something like Family A as chief, Family B as admin chief, family C as war chief, etc, because that would be rather hidden to us since the narrative focuses on the king usually.
Hopefully not, since we've set things up to prevent that very stunt.
But not impossible.
 
haven't seen anyone else link it, so a new Extra History that might be relevant in the relatively near future:

We currently have a "Mixed Logo-/Phonographic" writing system:
Writing (Mixed Logo-/Phonographic)
Which judging from wikipedia means that we're probably at a similar point as the Egyptians as of the bronze age collapse; Mostly "symbol = syllable" characters, some holdovers of "symbol=concept/word" characters, and probably a few "symbol = sound" that are closer to a regular alphabet letter. Of course, with any luck we wont collapse, unlike the situation in the EH episode, but if we're lucky we might be able to develop closer to an alphabetic system over time...or maybe the collapse of nearby civilizations will lead to some nomadic trading groups picking up those "symbol = sound" aspects like the traders did to the egyptian system in RL, and then we can pick up that innovation back from them?
 
Naw, remember we know to keep smelters dry because when moisture gets in, they can explode. We'd be unlikely to make a discovery that way because we keep them scrupulously clean.

However, we use charcoal for fuel, so it's already got carbonized plant matter.
:V

Derp. I forgot about that clean forge thing. Oh well charcoal works too.

@BungieONI I would like to join your party :).

Also thanks so much for the information.
You are welcome for both!
 
Considering scale is generally considered cheaper to make than maille, and I don't really see any indication that iron/steel plate armor was common before the late medieval era (outside of the segmentatum- but that has it's own issues) I'm going to be a bit skeptical. Lorica segmentatum wasn't super popular from what I understand, lorica squamata was a kind of scale, and lorica hamata was a hauberk. Everything I've seen suggests that the segmentatum was maintenence intensive and more expensive to make and maintain than the hamata, and that implies squamata was even cheaper.

I mean, Byzantine Cataphracts, the proto-typical knights, fought wearing heavy maille or scale when the Byzantines still should have had enough knowledge to use trip hammers to make sheets of iron less expensive.

Simply put, there's probably a reason the Romans didn't say fuck it and just make munition armor (possibly over maille or scale) standard issue.
You have to keep in mind the enabler is the spread of hammer mills, which IRL only really got popular when the Black Death killed off so many people that it was more economical to invest in the infrastructure expensive, skill intensive but manpower cheap plate armor.

Before that...why go to the expensive effort of producing plate metal when you could just use a dozen apprentices/slaves to churn out scales and rings repeatedly? It's not particularly difficult to train someone to forge lots of rings, but its difficult to train someone competent to shape and fit plate armor, while ALSO expensive to build the hammer mills to make the plate metal.
Local economic maxima says that as long as manpower is cheap, people will avoid developing expensive labor saving infrastructure and avoid anything dependent upon expensive skilled labor. People hate large upfront costs, but are willing to pay hundreds of small ones.
 
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haven't seen anyone else link it, so a new Extra History that might be relevant in the relatively near future:

We currently have a "Mixed Logo-/Phonographic" writing system:

Which judging from wikipedia means that we're probably at a similar point as the Egyptians as of the bronze age collapse; Mostly "symbol = syllable" characters, some holdovers of "symbol=concept/word" characters, and probably a few "symbol = sound" that are closer to a regular alphabet letter. Of course, with any luck we wont collapse, unlike the situation in the EH episode, but if we're lucky we might be able to develop closer to an alphabetic system over time...or maybe the collapse of nearby civilizations will lead to some nomadic trading groups picking up those "symbol = sound" aspects like the traders did to the egyptian system in RL, and then we can pick up that innovation back from them?


I don't see a good reason to change our writing system given that we could lose so much history by doing so.
 
It's because like most mass media, the internet, and therefore SV, is usually leftist? I don't know if you noticed, but the left won the cultural war a while ago. Capitalism is primarily centrist, and therefore evil. Never mind that it's the only viable method of resource distribution in a scarcity society that doesn't involve institutionalized force or indoctrination.

or it could just be human nature. humans are wired to put more value on negatives than positives, and over time will tend to take positives they've never been without for granted. So whatever system they are in looks bad because they pay more attention to stuff like rising poverty, or our near annual negligence induced industrial disaster than stuff like lack of famine or a high rate of innovation. Or I could be wrong and it's the ghost of Stalin brainwashing the masses by pouring socialism into the water supply.
 
I don't see a good reason to change our writing system given that we could lose so much history by doing so.
Why would we loose history?

It's not like we'd burn all the old history, we'd just have to retranslate it.

Make sure we keep plenty of dictionaries well preserved ones at that, and we should be in the clear...

Theoretically.

Besides it'd confuse the **** out of future archaeologists :V

Or I could be wrong and it's the ghost of Stalin brainwashing the masses by pouring socialism into the water supply.
Oh stop that friend no need for it.

Besides it was Marx doing the pouring not Stalin :D.
 
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*walks into thread, metaphorical tea in hand*

Huh.

Ok. Guess it's time then.


The Goblet, the party of survival and prosperity.

Motto: Sometimes people are dicks, doesn't mean we have to be.

Party manifesto:

The current war:
The party aims to see the People victorious and safe in combat. The final goal of the war is dominance of the south coast and a demand of tribute and reparations from the Khemetri for the expenses incurred while fighting.


Economy: The party believes strongly in the interconnected flow of goods in the suzerain-tributary relationships of the mandala. Luxury goods are greatly appreciated and supported as the gateway to culture. Thus, patronage of the arts and support for those artisans, as well as the wine, dyes and salt that made the Ymaryn their name in trading shall be a party goal. Pushes for technical advances to streamline production will be at the forefront, as their benefits are multiplicative, and the delegation of mineral rights with Royal support will continue a pace. The delegation of land is something the party is cautiously hopeful about, for as the Ymaryn people grow larger, it may be necessary to use it to discover administrative advances. Together the party hopes these goals will allow the Ymaryn people, from the least to the greatest have more time, and opportunity, for cultural and technical activities for the betterment of all in a glorious and Joyous Symphony.


Education: The way to prosperity is firmly believed by the party to lie in education. The opening of education to more people will require the establishment of many temples and library complexes, greatly pleasing the priests and installing them as our teachers. As a very positive side effect this will let more of the public interact more easily with the clergy in times of trouble, reducing stress and increasing happiness on a civilizational level.


Health and social care: The core of our Law is based on the health and care of our peoples, all peoples. As the priests and shamans are our doctors and mental health experts we must support them by building more places for them. We must also see to it that our leaders have access to these professionals so that they can correctly make decisions that help keep our society healthy. We can do this simply by expanding the shrine annex and the previously mentioned building of more temples.


Government: Not too much, not too little is the parties ideal. A hard balancing act certainly, but one the party is confident it can do. The party believes the State is a powerful tool for caring for and supporting the People. The state should act as the shield for the people, defending them in times of trouble and times of peace and care for their ills in all times. Without the people the State has nothing to support and thus no purpose and thus no power. As such it should not become so top heavy that it strangles those it cares for, and so at times a pruning and streamlining will be required, as can be seen with our laws.


Foreign affairs and defense: A core belief of the Goblet is that in these times our fellow humans are oft times not very harmonious. However, the party holds no ill will for them and in fact would far prefer to take them into our sphere as friends. In support of this the party will be pushing for trade missions to our neighbors and diplomatic overtures, with the goal of forestalling war and future friendship. The parties view on expansion is a complex one. Conquest for the sake of land is not necessary, and is actively detrimental to the Ymaryn people if a sudden reversal occurs. However, there is a long history for accidental gains to be made, so the party has a state of caution and watchfulness. Any gains made this way must be fortified quickly and thoroughly. All those who seek to come to our borders for asylum and care will also be welcomed to the best of our ability, and the party will endeavor to expand that ability, for the party very firmly believes that with patience and care all Peoples will become one with us.
The opportunistisk monarchs would like to join the coalition
 
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