Paths of Civilization

Enthusiast#117 · Mar 22, 2017

I'm new to the quest, but I'd like to question something:
Have we ever in this quest selected the New Settlement option? Even once?
Especially since our government method has this flaw:

Cons: Certain actions like new settlement development do not happen organically, but require direct intervention

I figure, forget expanding, we haven't even fully exploited our home-territory yet! Lets build a few settlements in our own backyard before trying to build some in the lowlands, maybe?

Umi-san · Mar 22, 2017

Enthusiast#117 said:
I'm new to the quest, but I'd like to question something:
Have we ever in this quest selected the New Settlement option? Even once?
Especially since our government method has this flaw:

I figure, forget expanding, we haven't even fully exploited our home-territory yet! Lets build a few settlements in our own backyard before trying to build some in the lowlands, maybe?

Yes... I think we have? Anyways, the point of building in the lowlands isn't to exploit things but to lay a claim to the land and make war easier. Our warriors have to go to a lot of trouble and don't bring back the loot that other people do because they have to carry it so far.

(Have we? Like, we have the valley, lower valley, coastal city, northern settlements... isn't there another one?)

Kiba said:
So we literally perform an investment by surrounding said mega-city with a ring of fortified settlement.

I can see it on the history channel now:

"It is unknown whether it is intentional, but the people of the valley appeared to have slowly encircled the lowlander's mega-city by building fortified settlement, as if they were playing multigenerational siege warfare."

If only that was how warfare could be performed

ctulhuslp · Mar 22, 2017

Sightsear said:
I don't think they're hands were actually tied. If anything, they were fighting harder than they ever had before, because mashing the War button was the only way to feed their mega-project (and people, but that's ancillary).

Althogh, I suppose you could argue it's scary because they have an extra action free to improve their economy again. The scariest result though, or at least most problematic, is the Wall of Fuckk-Off that they have built. We'll literally have to invent advanced seige craft for this.

2683

Their main action was taken by megaproject and they were burning economy and thus had to do something to deal with it - even if it was raids. Now they can devote more resources to war itself (with bonuses from megaproject to boot).
It will be hell of a bloodbath.

Umi-san said:
They did it based on the economy gained when only ST was raiding them, aka they were basically untouched. We completed the forest mega project while battling one person, w/o benefiting from war actions as our main dynergy.

I agree that we should build tall, and maybe make more settlements inside our base following the lowland settlement. If we do that then we'll be spread out a lot at the start but it will mean that all of our actions affect more settlements at once, that these settlements will each be growing on relatively untouched land at a steady pace, and etc. The coastal settlement, for one, might provide more benefit from fishing and snail farming, though we'll have to debate the merits of having one port city versus many. I think we all want the settlement at the elder's place.

If we make a settlement the wall needs to be a main action. We can then do pastures, forest, etc. after. I would probably be inclined to do forest first tbh, as it will make it easier for the lowland settlement to acquire wood to make carts and provide a place we're better suited for fighting in. I'd also do Study Forest that turn, but idk.

Main Wall + settlement + war/Main Wall + Main Settlement/Main Wall + Settlement + Expand Forests?
I think the first or second.
Hm

@Academia Nut , sorry, but...if we are explicitly building new settlement to make attacking Dead Priests easier, will not doing war action that turn still run risk of strife? And if it does, will the probability and severity be influenced by resources put into such a 'forward base'?

Enthusiast#117 said:
I'm new to the quest, but I'd like to question something:
Have we ever in this quest selected the New Settlement option? Even once?
Especially since our government method has this flaw:

I figure, forget expanding, we haven't even fully exploited our home-territory yet! Lets build a few settlements in our own backyard before trying to build some in the lowlands, maybe?

We did, two or three(?) turns ago. Went pretty well.

Umi-san · Mar 22, 2017

ctulhuslp said:
Their main action was taken by megaproject and they were burning economy and thus had to do something to deal with it - even if it was raids. Now they can devote more resources to war itself (with bonuses from megaproject to boot).
It will be hell of a bloodbath.

Main Wall + settlement + war/Main Wall + Main Settlement/Main Wall + Settlement + Expand Forests?
I think the first or second.
Hm

@Academia Nut , sorry, but...if we are explicitly building new settlement to make attacking Dead Priests easier, will not doing war action that turn still run risk of strife? And if it does, will the probability and severity be influenced by resources put into such a 'forward base'?

We did, two or three(?) turns ago. Went pretty well.

On the positive side, it's important to note that it was their slaves who were building it, not the warriors or upper hierarchy - who were and will be the people battling us. So we'll kill their warrior population down as they fight us more, and then they'll either have to a) breed more warriors, probably on slaves who will thus know their mother was a slave or b) create a promotional system for the slaves to be raised up to a warrior status. Either way, we're facilitating the democratization of their society and laying seeds of instability.

The main thing that we need to pursue is denial of resources - especially people. I'd argue that we shouldn't plant forest so they can't harvest wood, but the forest will be by us so if they send slave teams to harvest it they're basically just asking for us to attack their guards and overseers and bring them into our fold.

I want to do the Main/Main choice just to see wtf happens.

zamin · Mar 22, 2017

Enthusiast#117 said:
I'm new to the quest, but I'd like to question something:
Have we ever in this quest selected the New Settlement option? Even once?

We did it once right after finishing the Mega Project. However, bear in mind that even without picking the New Settlement option, we've been able to expand by basically annexing our neighbors via diplomacy.

IIRC, our coastal, northern hills and lower valley settlements all originally belonged to other people who decided to join us because they thought we were awesome (also because we helped them by teaching farms, giving protection or fixing their environmental issues).

veekie · Mar 22, 2017

ctulhuslp said:
Settlement walk will guarantee war with STs and anger to unknown degree WPs, so...only in moderate doses, please.

No guarantee. The STs only claim the center of the lowlands are cursed. We SPECULATE that this is due to selfish landgrab reasons, but it could very well be that the weather patterns are going to send another series of weather instability that way.
Or they could just be referring to the damaged soil and encroaching desertification if it's further overtaxed without remedial work, in which case we can claim we know the soil, water and wood spirits better.

ctulhuslp said:
Given that we explicitly are making the new settlement as a forward base for raiding, it might even lower the chance of strife due to Sacred War, so it seems pretty legit to main both.

Doubt it. AN already jossed previous speculation along those lines, though I'd note that if we use the walled settlement walk strategy, the Holy War trait may evolve to take into account for indirect efforts to prosecute a war.

Academia Nut said:
Admittedly, they had to be making war on their neighbours each turn in order to progress their megaproject, and they have ways of gaining Econ from making war, so there was a definite synergy going on.

Basically, they turned war into a growth industry. As long as they don't lose too many warriors raiding, attacking people is profitable, so whyever stop?

Kiba said:
We could main a settlement as an econ action inside our territory rather than the lowland perimeter as an econ action. Since we need all the population number we can get, it's probably a good idea?

Right now, we're behind the DP in term of population, and the WC is as big as us if not bigger. By building new settlement inside our territory, we could grow our number.

Enthusiast#117 said:
I'm new to the quest, but I'd like to question something:
Have we ever in this quest selected the New Settlement option? Even once?
Especially since our government method has this flaw:

I figure, forget expanding, we haven't even fully exploited our home-territory yet! Lets build a few settlements in our own backyard before trying to build some in the lowlands, maybe?

The reason for pushing down into the lowlands is that the high distance and difficult route makes it a very unfavorable war, limiting our use of our technological advantage of War Carts(due to the difficulty of getting them down there through trackless hills and desert), and that we only have the Holy War trait helping there, with the supply train large and vulnerable to retaliatory raids.

A Trail followed by Main Walls and Secondary Settlement gives us a secure, walled site to use as a supply point, and where we can gain the Shapers territory defense bonus, a Wall bonus, AND be able to build war carts on site, maintain and deploy them close to the target area.
As a bonus it also makes food and lets us start expanding forests onto the lowlands to slow down the desertification

veekie · Mar 22, 2017

Umi-san said:
The main thing that we need to pursue is denial of resources - especially people. I'd argue that we shouldn't plant forest so they can't harvest wood, but the forest will be by us so if they send slave teams to harvest it they're basically just asking for us to attack their guards and overseers and bring them into our fold.

Well...harvesting wood from a forest that contains US is going to end with a lot of unmarked graves and freed slaves...

Duesal · Mar 22, 2017

I'm seriously considering calling on the Spirit Talkers to help us annihilate the Dead Priests. While the Spirit Talkers technically declared war on our Western Confederacy allies, they won't hesitate to bring their A-Game against the Dead Priests--ESPECIALLY when they hear about the wall of skulls. And I wouldn't mind the Spirit Talkers wearing themselves out in this war instead of us.

Umi-san · Mar 22, 2017

zamin said:
We did it once right after finishing the Mega Project. However, bear in mind that even without picking the New Settlement option, we've been able to expand by basically annexing our neighbors via diplomacy.

IIRC, our coastal, northern hills and lower valley settlements all originally belonged to other people who decided to join us because they thought we were awesome (also because we helped them by teaching farms, giving protection or fixing their environmental issues).

They joined us 100% because of the latter reasons. They thought we were weird, impressively so but still weird. Showing ambassadors an expanse of farms literally covering hills endlessly is our main diplomatic tactic; it makes them realize that we can give them useful stuff.

veekie said:
in which case we can claim we know the soil, water and wood spirits better.

Doubt it. AN already jossed previous speculation along those lines, though I'd note that if we use the walled settlement walk strategy, the Holy War trait may evolve to take into account for indirect efforts to prosecute a war.

Basically, they turned war into a growth industry. As long as they don't lose too many warriors raiding, attacking people is profitable, so whyever stop?

The reason for pushing down into the lowlands is that the high distance and difficult route makes it a very unfavorable war, limiting our use of our technological advantage of War Carts(due to the difficulty of getting them down there through trackless hills and desert), and that we only have the Holy War trait helping there, with the supply train large and vulnerable to retaliatory raids.

A Trail followed by Main Walls and Secondary Settlement gives us a secure, walled site to use as a supply point, and where we can gain the Shapers territory defense bonus, a Wall bonus, AND be able to build war carts on site, maintain and deploy them close to the target area.
As a bonus it also makes food and lets us start expanding forests onto the lowlands to slow down the desertification

We could always just claim that the spirits of the earth and forest asked us to help lift the curse on the land and heal the Lowland Kami.

I think we've basically all agreed that settlement walking coupled with raids is the best strategy. Make settlements, wall them so that they can't be attacked easily, convince locals to be assimilated, and lay down suppressive raids as we build new forts, roads, forest, farms, pastures, etc.

Where do Study Forest, Survey, and Expand Fishing fall in this plan?

veekie said:
Well...harvesting wood from a forest that contains US is going to end with a lot of unmarked graves and freed slaves...

yeah... I said that.. in the post u quoted...

veekie · Mar 22, 2017

The Spirit Talkers are already hitting them from the other side. They literally can't stop and have never really stopped longer than to stop immediate starvation.
See the trait we took off them.

Our choice was to team up with the Western Confederacy when raiding, which basically meant that we coordinated our raids with for best effect with them. We're hitting their Western front and hindering slave captures on this side.

Duesal · Mar 22, 2017

veekie said:
The Spirit Talkers are already hitting them from the other side. They literally can't stop and have never really stopped longer than to stop immediate starvation.
See the trait we took off them.

Our choice was to team up with the Western Confederacy when raiding, which basically meant that we coordinated our raids with for best effect with them. We're hitting their Western front and hindering slave captures on this side.

I was thinking more in line with one big massive assault on their city--one turn where EVERYTHING is dedicated to the war (when we can afford it).

tryrar · Mar 22, 2017

Duesal said:
I was thinking more in line with one big massive assault on their city--one turn where EVERYTHING is dedicated to the war (when we can afford it).

Not going to work. At all. Unless we get advanced siegecraft.

I mean, that's what they build that Big Huge Fuckk-Off Wall for, to prevent things like you're suggesting.

Duesal · Mar 22, 2017

tryrar said:
Not going to work. At all. Unless we get advanced siegecraft.

I mean, that's what they build that Big Huge Fuckk-Off Wall for, to prevent things like you're suggesting.

That's kind of a given, which is why I said "when we can afford it". That means economically, and when we actually have a means of breaching the wall.

tryrar · Mar 22, 2017

Duesal said:
That's kind of a given, which is why I said "when we can afford it". That means economically, and when we actually have a means of breaching the wall.

Speaking of, @Academia Nut can you give us a hint on what action(s) lead to a chance for siege craft?

veekie · Mar 22, 2017

Duesal said:
I was thinking more in line with one big massive assault on their city--one turn where EVERYTHING is dedicated to the war (when we can afford it).

Still wouldn't do it. Without siegecraft all they can do is insult their mothers from outside no matter how many dudes you raided with. The first person onto the wall WILL die. No questions. Which rather puts a crimp on trying to storm it.

Like said before, with their megaproject wall, the Dead Priests are no longer something that can be overwhelmed easily. We have to take it like the Blight megaproject. Move resources and settlements into place and develop specialized tools against them. Secure the perimeter and prevent the rot from spreading. Isolate and burn out individual patches of infection. Starve them of resources.

Then by the time we reach the walls we actually might have a usable solution.

veekie · Mar 22, 2017

tryrar said:
Speaking of, @Academia Nut can you give us a hint on what action(s) lead to a chance for siege craft?

I can see two main options:
-War Missions - Every turn we raid them, some warrior is going to be thinking about how to go over the wall or to tear it down without touching the corruption.
-Build Walls(Main) - Building a wall isn't THAT different from tearing one down(easier even to break it, given room to do it uninterrupted). Build enough walls and we'd have the tools to take down a wall. And when you try to figure out how others might take down your walls...

pbluekan · Mar 22, 2017

You know there's other ways to kill people inside walled cities. It's brutal, but fire is pretty dangerous in this day and age. If you aren't planning to raid the city and loot it...

veekie · Mar 22, 2017

pbluekan said:
You know there's other ways to kill people inside walled cities. It's brutal, but fire is pretty dangerous in this day and age. If you aren't planning to raid the city and loot it...

Not brutal enough. We don't have pitch. We don't have tar. We have buildings made out of packed mud and brick because the Dead Priests don't have that much wood to work with in their area. Throwing burning charcoal bricks at their mud homes is going to be less than awesome.

You're thinking of the wrong era man. Setting fires is hard work at this point.

NotteBoy97 · Mar 22, 2017

pbluekan said:
You know there's other ways to kill people inside walled cities. It's brutal, but fire is pretty dangerous in this day and age. If you aren't planning to raid the city and loot it...

Especially if a city was randomly built with no planning put into it.

Umi-san · Mar 22, 2017

pbluekan said:
You know there's other ways to kill people inside walled cities. It's brutal, but fire is pretty dangerous in this day and age. If you aren't planning to raid the city and loot it...

Yeah but how the hell are we going to light a fire in their city if we don't have catapults and trebuchets? At which point we have siege engines.

And don't tell me the whole bird/bat nesting thing that one military leader (alexander? Genghis Khan?) did cus like... that's unreliable and trebuchets are cooler.

tryrar · Mar 22, 2017

Umi-san said:
Yeah but how the hell are we going to light a fire in their city if we don't have catapults and trebuchets? At which point we have siege engines.

And don't tell me the whole bird/bat nesting thing that one military leader (alexander? Genghis Khan?) did cus like... that's unreliable and trebuchets are cooler.

That was actually a WWII project. I shit you not.

zamin · Mar 22, 2017

Umi-san said:
I think we've basically all agreed that settlement walking coupled with raids is the best strategy. Make settlements, wall them so that they can't be attacked easily, convince locals to be assimilated, and lay down suppressive raids as we build new forts, roads, forest, farms, pastures, etc.

Where do Study Forest, Survey, and Expand Fishing fall in this plan?

From what I can tell, our general plan is...

Current turn (Turn1): Restoration of Harmony + New Trails

Next Turn (Turn 2): New Settlement + Build Wall

Turn 3: Expand Forest + Study Forest

Turn 4: Economic + Economic/Internal/Military action as needed

Turn 5: New Trails + Economic/Internal/Military action as needed

Turn 6: Repeat from Turn 2 onwards

ctulhuslp · Mar 22, 2017

Given that Dead Priests most likely lack any and all sanitation and are aggressive and warlike and probably don't stockpile years' worth of food, just (well, 'just' - it is damn hard if at all possible) boxing them in the city will lead to a lot of diseases, famine and infighting.
Granted, it will still be extremely hard and burn economy (because investment is really hard and we'll need to feed it), but it can be done.

zamin said:
From what I can tell, our general plan is...

Current turn (Turn1): Restoration of Harmony + New Trails

Next Turn (Turn 2): New Settlement + Build Wall

Turn 3: Expand Forest + Study Forest

Turn 4: Economic + Economic/Internal/Military action as needed

Turn 5: New Trails + Economic/Internal/Military action as needed

Turn 6: Repeat from Turn 2 onwards

More or less this, with situational external actions and maybe land survey sometime because copper tools.

Neptune · Mar 22, 2017

Why are you trying to set fire to a city? That's a incredibly difficult and a waste of resources, when there are far easier ways such as poisoning or fouling the river that they drink. This'll cause them illness and sickness, and as they become weaker become even more susceptible to illness, and importantly it can be done upriver from their capital settlement.

We even have a certain advantage from our black soil, by taking that experience but using it for a more nefarious purpose.

tryrar · Mar 22, 2017

Neptune said:
Why are you trying to set fire to a city? That's a incredibly difficult and a waste of resources, when there are far easier ways such as poisoning or fouling the river that they drink. This'll cause them illness and sickness, and as they become weaker become even more susceptible to illness, and importantly it can be done upriver from their capital settlement.

We even have a certain advantage from our black soil, by taking that experience but using it for a more nefarious purpose.

Our traits make it a..poor decision to poison land

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