Paths of Civilization

[Umi-san]

Given that Dead Priests most likely lack any and all sanitation and are aggressive and warlike and probably don't stockpile years' worth of food, just (well, 'just' - it is damn hard if at all possible) boxing them in the city will lead to a lot of diseases, famine and infighting.
Granted, it will still be extremely hard and burn economy (because investment is really hard and we'll need to feed it), but it can be done.

More or less this, with situational external actions and maybe land survey sometime because copper tools.

Click to shrink...

Survey will probably be our post-forest internal action. It just makes sense to use everything that we have, and is a relatively mil-cost-free action, cus it's unlikely that our surveyors will be raided, though logically speaking it would help with establishing forests.

The problem with boxing them in the city is that we don't have badass weapons and defenses yet. We need to get rid of their outlying settlements so that they can't come to the rescue and we need to work out how to quickly fortify so that when we surround their city we aren't easy to break past. Aka we need Roman engineers.

Why are you trying to set fire to a city? That's a incredibly difficult and a waste of resources, when there are far easier ways such as poisoning or fouling the river that they drink. This'll cause them illness and sickness, and as they become weaker become even more susceptible to illness, and importantly it can be done upriver from their capital settlement.

We even have a certain advantage from our black soil, by taking that experience but using it for a more nefarious purpose.

Click to shrink...

I agree that poisoning is something we should consider doing.

Our traits make it a..poor decision to poison land

Click to shrink...

But it's for the long term benefit... and it will only kill animals not the plants... Obviously, though, we could always just make a Diverge River megaproject...

 

[ctulhuslp]

Honestly, I am more concerned about diplomatic shitstorm over us starting to claim lowlands. We will have to do some sort of diplomatic mediation/send trade missions to both 'allies' afterwards, I think.

Our traits make it a..poor decision to poison land

Click to shrink...

If it were any other people, it would be a poor move. But with guys who literally built a wall out of skulls and are fucking up the land with shitty irrigation practices, it could go either way.

 

[veekie]

Given that Dead Priests most likely lack any and all sanitation and are aggressive and warlike and probably don't stockpile years' worth of food, just (well, 'just' - it is damn hard if at all possible) boxing them in the city will lead to a lot of diseases, famine and infighting.
Granted, it will still be extremely hard and burn economy (because investment is really hard and we'll need to feed it), but it can be done.

Click to shrink...

Also not possible. We don't HAVE the logistics to maintain an army surrounding their city for more than WEEKS at best, unless we literally build the chain of settlements until we wind up building a wall around their city and man it..

No standing armies. There are no marching armies.
The strategies of razing the fields and besieging a city to starve it out are not feasible yet.

Why are you trying to set fire to a city? That's a incredibly difficult and a waste of resources, when there are far easier ways such as poisoning or fouling the river that they drink. This'll cause them illness and sickness, and as they become weaker become even more susceptible to illness, and importantly it can be done upriver from their capital settlement.

We even have a certain advantage from our black soil, by taking that experience but using it for a more nefarious purpose.

Click to shrink...

It'd probably cause more unrest than it causes to just ignore the holy war. It's not Just, it ruins everything downriver, including innocents and allies. It destroys the environment for uncertain gain...


...finally you do realize how hard it is to really foul a river beyond usability for more than a few days right?

 

[Umi-san]

Also not possible. We don't HAVE the logistics to maintain an army surrounding their city for more than WEEKS at best, unless we literally build the chain of settlements until we wind up building a wall around their city and man it..

No standing armies. There are no marching armies.
The strategies of razing the fields and besieging a city to starve it out are not feasible yet.

It'd probably cause more unrest than it causes to just ignore the holy war. It's not Just, it ruins everything downriver, including innocents and allies. It destroys the environment for uncertain gain...


...finally you do realize how hard it is to really foul a river beyond usability for more than a few days right?

Click to shrink...

We just need to find olive trees and then we can burn their fields. Plant acres of olive, get oil, slosh said oil everywhere, throw pitch torches into the oil, and then their fields go up.
We could also probably just occupy the town and have farmers with scythes walk in a line through the fields cutting things... if we had scythes... Maybe have animals go through.. but the plants would recover... *sighs*

But yeah, redirecting the river is the best choice. If we move it far enough that they can't get water without walking for a day or seven it will force their megacity to displace itself, especially if we start planting trees and stuff where the old riverbed is - which will make redirecting the river somewhat harder. Notably, if we angle it toward the other river it will sort of create an island effect that we can take advantage of as a stronghold.

 

[tryrar]

We just need to find olive trees and then we can burn their fields. Plant acres of olive, get oil, slosh said oil everywhere, throw pitch torches into the oil, and then their fields go up.
We could also probably just occupy the town and have farmers with scythes walk in a line through the fields cutting things... if we had scythes... Maybe have animals go through.. but the plants would recover... *sighs*

But yeah, redirecting the river is the best choice. If we move it far enough that they can't get water without walking for a day or seven it will force their megacity to displace itself, especially if we start planting trees and stuff where the old riverbed is - which will make redirecting the river somewhat harder. Notably, if we angle it toward the other river it will sort of create an island effect that we can take advantage of as a stronghold.

Click to shrink...

Besides the logistical nightmare that would be, your reasoning they'll just sit there and spend several generations diverting the river is?

 

[Duesal]

I just hope we avoid setting off a new plague when we do get around to besieging them. Their sanitation is nonexistent, and their city planning is an absolute joke.

 

[Umi-san]

Besides the logistical nightmare that would be, your reasoning they'll just sit there and spend several generations diverting the river is?

Click to shrink...

That they will or that we will? I was thinking more that if WE expand toward their river we can start a megaproject aiming at diverting it. The settlements we create would provide something of a shield of our operations.

Diverting the river would step around the issue of surrounding their megacity by making the city unsustainable. However, it's probably a less economic way than simply smothering them with raids that steadily increase in strength and farms that steadily overtake their own. A city cannot survive without food, even if it can survive longer than it would without water.


"Hope we *avoid* setting off a plague" Why? It will kill the slaves, which I guess is bad, but it wall make ending them easier. As long as we shoot anyone fleeing the city we won't get infected in turn. And tbh I wouldn't put it above the DP to just send infected slaves out to their besieging foes.

 

[Neptune]

...finally you do realize how hard it is to really foul a river beyond usability for more than a few days right?

Click to shrink...

Considerably easier than the ideas of trying to divert a river, or setting fire to a city.

 

[tryrar]

Considerably easier than the ideas of trying to divert a river, or setting fire to a city.

Click to shrink...

....that says more for the sheer, near-impossibility of those items that for the practicality of poisoning the river.

 

[Umi-san]

....that says more for the sheer, near-impossibility of those items that for the practicality of poisoning the river.

Click to shrink...

When the river's low it's not that hard. I've seen rivers, they're like... 3 meters across and 2 deep, right?

 

[ctulhuslp]

Considerably easier than the ideas of trying to divert a river, or setting fire to a city.

Click to shrink...

And yet easier than gutting their economy by crushing their fields and stealing whatever is outside the walls, thus causing this mess of metropolis to descend into chaos.
Because changing the river for non-insignificant amount of time is...well, modern corporations are trying their best with far more poisonous chemicals than The People have, and yet don't always manage to poison the entire river downstream.

 

[tryrar]

When the river's low it's not that hard. I've seen rivers, they're like... 3 meters across and 2 deep, right?

Click to shrink...

.................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................*Error! sheer stupidity fault detected. tryar.exe has stopped working.*

 

[ctulhuslp]

.................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................*Error! sheer stupidity fault detected. tryar.exe has stopped working.*

Click to shrink...

Chill, man. I think it was a joke.

 

[tryrar]

Chill, man. I think it was a joke.

Click to shrink...

you would really hope so, bro, but then again this is the internet.

 

[Neptune]

And yet easier than gutting their economy by crushing their fields and stealing whatever is outside the walls, thus causing this mess of metropolis to descend into chaos.
Because changing the river for non-insignificant amount of time is...well, modern corporations are trying their best with far more poisonous chemicals than The People have, and yet don't always manage to poison the entire river downstream.

Click to shrink...

You don't need to do it for a considerable period of time though. People need to drink daily, and if the water source is contaminated the populace quickly becomes sick. The Dead Priests society also is unorganized from the descriptions of the capital, their cleanliness is likely to be poor making the illness worse, and they are noted cannibals making things considerably worse once sickness starts spreading and food starts being restricted.

For the comments about whether our polity could do it with our traits, I'd refer to the Shapers that allows us to take negative actions if it's for the long term benefit of the land which the DP would qualfy. And as you stated, the fouling of the river is not going to last much longer after we've stopped actively doing it.

 

[hylas240]

Building a new settlement every other turn might cause problems with the ST or the WC, but I doubt it'd be a significant problem (building 1 or 2 settlements every turn though would definitely piss them off). More settlements in the lowlands means a much much easier support structure for our military, and will go a long way towards surrounding the WC with our influence (eventually assimilating them).

Pastures would mean more meat, which means taller and stronger people, and more beasts of burden. Expand Fishing means more meat, a chance at developing sea vessel tech, and a drought independent food source. Both are good choices to take, but pastures would provide more horses and cattle, which is more important short-term for the war effort.

I doubt there'd be any synergy with Expand Forests and Study Forests since the expansion would be happening in the Northern Hills or the Lowlands (while the Shamans at the Sacred Forest holy site would see what they can figure out at their place).

Expand Forests in the North is really important, since it would make it nearly impossible for the raiders to fuck with the northern hill village. Since there's a drought coming up (most likely), they'd probably look to raid neighbors for food in the future, which means a dedicated raiding party to our northern settlement.

Expand Forests in the Lowlands would provide a great terrain bonus to our settlement, an easy source of quality timber, and food in the form of herbs//deer/bunnies/etc. It'd also be the start of reversing the desertification of the lowlands and turn it into the incredibly fertile land we all know it was before the drought.

 

[bluefur87]

Honestly, I am more concerned about diplomatic shitstorm over us starting to claim lowlands. We will have to do some sort of diplomatic mediation/send trade missions to both 'allies' afterwards, I think.

Click to shrink...

I'm pretty sure our successfully waging war and maintaining claim over land against the Dead Priests is more likely to have the WC consolidate into us more than anything. The Spirit Talkers are a bit bigger of a question, as they could either hate us for settling in the cursed land or see us purifying it with proper farming and forestry techniques and then decide to back us, or that we are at least able to purify said land. Either way though, they can't really get to us and wage war easily.

Our best bet at winning the war against the Dead Priests is to just be the existential multi-generational horror story of the creeping forest of doomTM​ and harass them until they collapse from internal strife now that they have that accursed wall. That we gain tons of land and econ from it means we can sustain it as a massive land grab and treat our military strategy as a rather expensive set of econ actions with massive pay off. Seriously, giving some of the best farmers in existence like us flood plains is huge.

 

[ctulhuslp]

You don't need to do it for a considerable period of time though. People need to drink daily, and if the water source is contaminated the populace quickly becomes sick. The Dead Priests society also is unorganized from the descriptions of the capital, their cleanliness is likely to be poor making the illness worse, and they are noted cannibals making things considerably worse once sickness starts spreading and food starts being restricted.

For the comments about whether our polity could do it with our traits, I'd refer to the Shapers that allows us to take negative actions if it's for the long term benefit of the land which the DP would qualfy. And as you stated, the fouling of the river is not going to last much longer after we've stopped actively doing it.

Click to shrink...

Basically the good old trick with throwing animal carcasses into besieged city to spread disease, only with river instead of catapults as the method of delivery?
Well...it is extremely dubious idea for several reasons (*war crimes*, for example - our civ is pretty averse to those, at least compared to the era), but maybe?

Building a new settlement every other turn might cause problems with the ST or the WC, but I doubt i'd be a significant problem (building 1 or 2 settlements every turn though would definitely piss them off). More settlements in the lowlands means a much much easier support structure for our military, and will go a long way towards surrounding the WC with our influence (eventually assimilating them).

Pastures would mean more meat, which means taller and stronger people, and more beasts of burden. Expand Fishing means more meat, a chance at developing sea vessel tech, and a drought independent food source. Both are good choices to take, but pastures would provide more horses and cattle, which is more important short-term for the war effort.

I doubt there'd be any synergy with Expand Forests and Study Forests since the expansion would be happening in the Northern Hills or the Lowlands (while the Shamans at the Sacred Forest holy site would see what they can figure out at their place).

Expand Forests in the North is really important, since it would make it nearly impossible for the raiders to fuck with the northern hill village. Since there's a drought coming up (most likely), they'd probably look to raid neighbors for food in the future, which means a dedicated raiding party to our northern settlement.

Expand Forests in the Lowlands would provide a great terrain bonus to our settlement, an easy source of quality timber, and food in the form of herbs//deer/bunnies/etc. It'd also be the start of reversing the desertification of the lowlands and turn it into the incredibly fertile land we all know it was before the drought.

Click to shrink...

We can maybe make a deal with WCs where they are totes okay with us getting clay in lowlands in exchange for our help with the walling of their settlements.
I am extremely leery of helping STs in the same way though.

I'm pretty sure our successfully waging war and maintaining claim over land against the Dead Priests is more likely to have the WC consolidate into us more than anything. The Spirit Talkers are a bit bigger of a question, as they could either hate us for settling in the cursed land or see us purifying it with proper farming and forestry techniques and then decide to back us, or that we are at least able to purify said land. Either way though, they can't really get to us and wage war easily.

Our best bet at winning the war against the Dead Priests is to just be the existential multi-generational horror story of the creeping forest of doomTM​ and harass them until they collapse from internal strife now that they have that accursed wall. That we gain tons of land and econ from it means we can sustain it as a massive land grab and treat our military strategy as a rather expensive set of econ actions with massive pay off. Seriously, giving some of the best farmers in existence like us flood plains is huge.

Click to shrink...

WCs are peer power, so I doubt, but closer ties are plausible.
STs are almost definitely future enemy though.

 

[Duesal]

"Hope we *avoid* setting off a plague" Why? It will kill the slaves, which I guess is bad, but it wall make ending them easier. As long as we shoot anyone fleeing the city we won't get infected in turn. And tbh I wouldn't put it above the DP to just send infected slaves out to their besieging foes.

Click to shrink...

Because we always seem to get screwed over when it comes to sparking disaster. If a plague starts we will somehow contract it, especially with our Land of Opportunity trait.

 

[Umi-san]

you would really hope so, bro, but then again this is the internet.

Click to shrink...

It was a joke but also an admission that, as a Californian, all the rivers I've ever seen have been that size, MAX. Like, when I want to Japan, Thailand, and Europe I saw larger rivers but when I think "river" I still think of the LA River rather than the one flowing through Bangkok.

Building a new settlement every other turn might cause problems with the ST or the WC, but I doubt it'd be a significant problem (building 1 or 2 settlements every turn though would definitely piss them off). More settlements in the lowlands means a much much easier support structure for our military, and will go a long way towards surrounding the WC with our influence (eventually assimilating them).

Pastures would mean more meat, which means taller and stronger people, and more beasts of burden. Expand Fishing means more meat, a chance at developing sea vessel tech, and a drought independent food source. Both are good choices to take, but pastures would provide more horses and cattle, which is more important short-term for the war effort.

I doubt there'd be any synergy with Expand Forests and Study Forests since the expansion would be happening in the Northern Hills or the Lowlands (while the Shamans at the Sacred Forest holy site would see what they can figure out at their place).

Expand Forests in the North is really important, since it would make it nearly impossible for the raiders to fuck with the northern hill village. Since there's a drought coming up (most likely), they'd probably look to raid neighbors for food in the future, which means a dedicated raiding party to our northern settlement.

Expand Forests in the Lowlands would provide a great terrain bonus to our settlement, an easy source of quality timber, and food in the form of herbs//deer/bunnies/etc. It'd also be the start of reversing the desertification of the lowlands and turn it into the incredibly fertile land we all know it was before the drought.

Click to shrink...

I feel like a Main Expand Forest would allow us to expand it in both of those areas, though to a lesser degree than one place alone - of course.

I support Pastures but feel that we need to decide now-ish whether we want to fully dedicate to conquering the lowlands or not. The former would require that we ignore Expand Fishing and other coastal options for a while. The latter would mean that we need to accept a longer pace for the war, with a greater chance that the DP will adapt to our methodology in time to reduce its effectiveness. Land grabbing only works when they don't anticipate that we will be land grabbing; forts only work when they don't yet know that they can just kill the people building it as it's erected.

Basically the good old trick with throwing animal carcasses into besieged city to spread disease, only with river instead of catapults as the method of delivery?
Well...it is extremely dubious idea for several reasons (*war crimes*, for example - our civ is pretty averse to those, at least compared to the era), but maybe?

We can maybe make a deal with WCs where they are totes okay with us getting clay in lowlands in exchange for our help with the walling of their settlements.
I am extremely leery of helping STs in the same way though.

WCs are peer power, so I doubt, but closer ties are plausible.
STs are almost definitely future enemy though.

Click to shrink...

The WC's will eventually become ours, especially since they're roughly pinned between our valley and the lowlands, since they reside in the lower hills. If we expand enough this will become clear, and either make them our enemy or not. Tbh, idk how the ST will work. They might become our enemies, they might just expand in the north. All of our speculation has been based on a speculation that they want to possess the lowlands, rather than simply declaring it cursed in the hopes that the DP will die already.

Because we always seem to get screwed over when it comes to sparking disaster. If a plague starts we will somehow contract it, especially with our Land of Opportunity trait.

Click to shrink...

*shrug* True... but we deal with plagues okay-ish, right?

 

[ctulhuslp]

It was a joke but also an admission that, as a Californian, all the rivers I've ever seen have been that size, MAX. Like, when I want to Japan, Thailand, and Europe I saw larger rivers but when I think "river" I still think of the LA River rather than the one flowing through Bangkok.

Click to shrink...

> lives in Kiev
> has about 200-meter wide river smack in the middle of the city
> last flood was about, what, 50 years ago?

I love temperate climate.

I feel like a Main Expand Forest would allow us to expand it in both of those areas, though to a lesser degree than one place alone - of course.

I support Pastures but feel that we need to decide now-ish whether we want to fully dedicate to conquering the lowlands or not. The former would require that we ignore Expand Fishing and other coastal options for a while. The latter would mean that we need to accept a longer pace for the war, with a greater chance that the DP will adapt to our methodology in time to reduce its effectiveness. Land grabbing only works when they don't anticipate that we will be land grabbing; forts only work when they don't yet know that they can just kill the people building it as it's erected.

Click to shrink...

Well...but we would adapt too and, as long as we don't forget to grow industrial capacity, we'll outslog them eventually?

The WC's will eventually become ours, especially since they're roughly pinned between our valley and the lowlands, since they reside in the lower hills. If we expand enough this will become clear, and either make them our enemy or not. Tbh, idk how the ST will work. They might become our enemies, they might just expand in the north. All of our speculation has been based on a speculation that they want to possess the lowlands, rather than simply declaring it cursed in the hopes that the DP will die already.

Click to shrink...

Only if we make an effort to bring us closer. Trade Missions, helping them deal with desertification, hashing out deal about who gets which parts of lowlands instead of madly rushing it...

 

[Umi-san]

> lives in Kiev
> has about 200-meter wide river smack in the middle of the city
> last flood was about, what, 50 years ago?

I love temperate climate.

Well...but we would adapt too and, as long as we don't forget to grow industrial capacity, we'll outslog them eventually?

Only if we make an effort to bring us closer. Trade Missions, helping them deal with desertification, hashing out deal about who gets which parts of lowlands instead of madly rushing it...

Click to shrink...

Making efforts to bring them closer in the manner you described would definitely work to forestall a turn toward dislike, but I don't truly believe that it would actually foster closer ties. I feel that more or less cutting them off from other avenues is a better policy - it fosters dependence and thus cultural assimilation. But then again, I trend toward aggressive yet passive moves.

Negotiating deals about where we'll distribute land is... difficult. At present, none of our scores are high enough to give us a superior position that will allow us to simultaneously get the best positioning for our settlements and set their areas up so as to facilitate maximal interpolity contact. But it would work after we've set up two more settlements or so.

We would adapt too but if they reach this strategy of prevention before we've established a firm enough hold our overall growth will be hampered, and we'll have to turn from a steady outward growth model to a mixed military action and internal consolidation one. Technological capabilities are presumed to trend toward an arms-race style more than anything else, though we benefit from our xenophilia and regular contact with the Coppers. Arguably, Expand Fishing will foster our later technological development through such means.


Also, California is arguably "temperate" but Mid-Southern California is more correctly described as "Mediterranean" aka a pleasant desert.

 

[ctulhuslp]

Making efforts to bring them closer in the manner you described would definitely work to forestall a turn toward dislike, but I don't truly believe that it would actually foster closer ties. I feel that more or less cutting them off from other avenues is a better policy - it fosters dependence and thus cultural assimilation. But then again, I trend toward aggressive yet passive moves.

Negotiating deals about where we'll distribute land is... difficult. At present, none of our scores are high enough to give us a superior position that will allow us to simultaneously get the best positioning for our settlements and set their areas up so as to facilitate maximal interpolity contact. But it would work after we've set up two more settlements or so.

We would adapt too but if they reach this strategy of prevention before we've established a firm enough hold our overall growth will be hampered, and we'll have to turn from a steady outward growth model to a mixed military action and internal consolidation one. Technological capabilities are presumed to trend toward an arms-race style more than anything else, though we benefit from our xenophilia and regular contact with the Coppers. Arguably, Expand Fishing will foster our later technological development through such means.


Also, California is arguably "temperate" but Mid-Southern California is more correctly described as "Mediterranean" aka a pleasant desert.

Click to shrink...

But I do not mean getting the better end of the deal. Previously, cultural assimilation worked due to being generous, not trying to maneuver them into position of dependence. Same with deals about lowlands: we do not want 'better' chunks only to ourselves, we want fair deal in which everybody will profit and which will minimize conflicts.

 

[Umi-san]

But I do not mean getting the better end of the deal. Previously, cultural assimilation worked due to being generous, not trying to maneuver them into position of dependence. Same with deals about lowlands: we do not want 'better' chunks only to ourselves, we want fair deal in which everybody will profit and which will minimize conflicts.

Click to shrink...

*squirms uncomfortably* G-giving up our own power..? Making people stronger...? What is this?

We were generous when other people were needy. They are not needy right now, they are wanty. We need to establish a firm economic base so that when the drought comes we can give them food and teach them how to prevent economic disasters through the magic of forests. Until then, allowing them to take things that would give them even more power just empowers them, you know?

Being fair and generous will ensure that our relations stay positive, but that doesn't mean it will lead to assimilation, just affable relations until all of the vertical room for growth has ceased. At that point conflict for horizontal power is likely to develop, so long as they remain equals rather than inferiors.
Generosity is for the rich.

 

[Kiba]

To make the WC a not-peer power, we need to increase population number. That mean spamming new settlements to grow # of people.