Paths of Civilization

Cerillian · Jul 21, 2017

Sivantic said:
Actually is it not Stone Age Law that we have?

It is certainly not helping, true. I'd considering that rolled into the whole 'bronze age enforcement' thing. It is a social tool for encouraging and enforcing certain behavior as desired, and has a significant number of flaws. Now that the People have more experience in what it means to have written laws, and ways they can create results other than what is imagined by their writers, they can do a better job.

But I wouldn't consider the laws to be the whole of the problem. There is also the cultural standards, traditions, and expectations built up around and in response to the People's history and life. Some of them have some serious downsides, from the perspective of most of us here reading the thread. Among those, is the fact that when we encourage the People to develop behaviors we like, the way they go about pushing people to do that will pretty much always end up crushing some of the weakest members of society. We can try to change who that weakest is, but we cannot escape that fact.

Every step we take, there will be people underfoot. And standing still means falling on even more.

DragonParadox · Jul 21, 2017

notgreat said:
The South Of Cataracts settlement does nothing to help us in the near-medium term. We've got at least 2 turns before it'd have any utility at all. Why are people voting for it?

The land is not going to stay empty forever

BungieONI · Jul 21, 2017

notgreat said:
Enforce Justice's Centralization increase comes from bringing these sorts of cases to the King's attention. We need to get this information into the government. Reduce Corruption, increase Stability, and make sure the Govenment remains strong (increase Centralization)

The South Of Cataracts settlement does nothing to help us in the near-medium term. We've got at least 2 turns before it'd have any utility at all. Why are people voting for it? It's very important... for the Dam. Which is not going to be until after The Law. Propagating Hatvalley provides us with all the LTE we need to keep the Baby Boom going even before we count in the fact that colonies can absorb the Baby Boom.

Merc Companies still take a full main.

Well darn.

Agh.

Anyway another thing I'm going to float is taking in the minimum number of people till we get the law fixed so that fewer people are being subjected to our system.

Kiba · Jul 21, 2017

veekie said:
Cap raise from integration mostly

Will it raise our econ cap enough though?

Raichu1972 · Jul 21, 2017

SpeckofStardust said:
Your looking at this from a modern view. Please stop doing that when trying to deal with the people who don't have said view.

I'm sure that even the Bronze Age Ymaryn didn't think of their tax collector requiring bribes or their innkeepers overcharging their tax men needing to be payed off as normal just because they don't have a "modern" view.

The idea of corrupt taxmen is not "modern", and likely only started to truly come about through the tax crisis.

It's not a "modern" view to see yourself getting screwed off without knowing any way to rectify and feel like it is against the spirit of the law.

The idea that society should generally follow its own laws and that not expecting rampant corruption is a "modern" point of view is frankly idiotic.

DragonParadox · Jul 21, 2017

BungieONI said:
Well darn.

Agh.

Anyway another thing I'm going to float is taking in the minimum number of people till we get the law fixed so that fewer people are being subjected to our system.

I will note that our system is still better than slavery or starving to death.

Cerillian · Jul 21, 2017

Citino said:
You're a few thousand years too early for that. Even the most benevolent factions at this time just couldn't afford what you are suggesting for so many people.

Like, even modern day societies spend quite a bit of their budget on public education, and societies at this age only have a fraction of a fraction of what a modern state has in terms of resources. They literally cannot afford to spend so much teaching these immigrants on their own dime. That's why festivals are a thing, and even they are pretty expensive.

Only bright side to this, second gen immigrants almost always do far better than first gen immigrants in situations like this.

Oh, I did not intend to imply any of that was possible.

People in her situation are pretty solidly boned.

SpeckofStardust · Jul 21, 2017

Raichu1972 said:
I'm sure that even the Bronze Age Ymaryn didn't think of their tax collector requiring bribes or their innkeepers overcharging their tax men needing to be payed off as normal just because they don't have a "moder| view.

The idea of corrupt taxmen is not "modern", and likely only started to truly come about through the tax crisis.

It's not a "modern" view to see yourself getting screwed off without knowing any way to rectify and feel like it is against the spirit of the law.

The idea that society should generally follow its own laws and that not expecting rampant corruption is a "modern" point of view is frankly idiotic.

She's the one bribing him.
She's the one offering up her body.
She's the one who could go see the someone to tell them that she being mistreated.

notgreat · Jul 21, 2017

DragonParadox said:
The land is not going to stay empty forever

The only people who could take it are the Txolla (no problem, just integrate/propagate them) or the Highland Kingdom (likely still recovering from the Sacred Forest climate damage, let alone the latest one, and they don't really have any reason to want to go there)

And even if we lose it (which we probably won't), all we lose is a couple of slots' worth of bonus from making the new lake in the Badlands and terraforming it. Instead we just put it below Lower Valleyhome, a minor loss but not one worth worrying about.

VoidZero · Jul 21, 2017

BungieONI said:
Well darn.
Agh.
Anyway another thing I'm going to float is taking in the minimum number of people till we get the law fixed so that fewer people are being subjected to our system.

I think while our system is a bit broken at the moment, it still is an improvement over plain slavery. Of course we are dealing with other issues, so fixing the system may not happen for a while.

At least the priests/shamans aren't short of children to educate.

Manget · Jul 21, 2017

veekie said:
Cap raise from integration mostly

WE are going to get some martial from the integration so it make it a little worse

Neptune · Jul 21, 2017

The Census - How many People are there anyway? (2-3? action commitment, -4 Mysticism per action) [Reserves + Library]
The Games - Physical competition and prowess are becoming a popular pass time and way for warriors and militia to train. Could a special festival be founded to celebrate this? (2-3? action commitment, -2 Mysticism and Art per action, 2 Econ total commitment) [Elites]

[X] [Main] The Census
[X] [Secondary] The Games
[X] [Secondary] The Games x2

I'll just go with this. Census as it should help us out administratively and paves the way for The Law, and given it came about due to having Reserves it may help somewhat with our martial problem from economy like perhaps it only activating in war. Like wise, I've gone for the Games as it seems inevitable we're going to be having red martial problems to come given people have expressed a wish to integrate our subordinate states and they're gonna keep pumping us full or martial. The Games should ideally limit the downsides of having red martial via being able to turn it into a cultural competitive activity, and the Games in general is mentioned to be a special festival so it's quite likely to give us some stability on completion which would be further helpful.

It should also help us with our more martial cultures in our civilization via giving them an outlet and a way to generate prestige, and it seems like one of the wonders that's more likely to be lost.

@Academia Nut - given how the Law works doubling a main on mega project support, are one of those actions potentially going to be wasted regardless if say Census only needs 2 main actions to complete; or would that overflow into the Games?

SpeckofStardust · Jul 21, 2017

[X][Main] The Census
[X][Main] Raise Army
Here's my vote for the day.

notgreat · Jul 21, 2017

SpeckofStardust said:
[X][Main] Raise Army

...Are you trying to make us accidentally start a war? We're at Martial Cap already.
*M: -3 Econ, -4 Wealth, +7 Martial, +1 Art, potential additional effects
That puts us so far over it's not even funny.

DragonParadox · Jul 21, 2017

notgreat said:
The only people who could take it are the Txolla (no problem, just integrate/propagate them) or the Highland Kingdom (likely still recovering from the Sacred Forest climate damage, let alone the latest one, and they don't really have any reason to want to go there)

And even if we lose it (which we probably won't), all we lose is a couple of slots' worth of bonus from making the new lake in the Badlands and terraforming it. Instead we just put it below Lower Valleyhome, a minor loss but not one worth worrying about.

Badlands Dam also helps with navigation and thus long term connectivity to the lowlands. I don't want to risk that. We can take a stab increase on the mid turn.

Sivantic · Jul 21, 2017

Deathbybunnies said:
Nope, we got Bronze Age Law early by being super awesome.

Looked back. It is actually Copper Age Law so you are wrong

Funnily enough I think we are just about to get Bronze Age Law. Even though ww have Iron, everyone else still has bronze so yeah.

Cerillian said:
It is certainly not helping, true. I'd considering that rolled into the whole 'bronze age enforcement' thing. It is a social tool for encouraging and enforcing certain behavior as desired, and has a significant number of flaws. Now that the People have more experience in what it means to have written laws, and ways they can create results other than what is imagined by their writers, they can do a better job.

But I wouldn't consider the laws to be the whole of the problem. There is also the cultural standards, traditions, and expectations built up around and in response to the People's history and life. Some of them have some serious downsides, from the perspective of most of us here reading the thread. Among those, is the fact that when we encourage the People to develop behaviors we like, the way they go about pushing people to do that will pretty much always end up crushing some of the weakest members of society. We can try to change who that weakest is, but we cannot escape that fact.

Every step we take, there will be people underfoot. And standing still means falling on even more.

Which is why we are moving forward, even as our people do so blindly.

We act so proud of HALPING others we forget that we are also capable of HALPING ourselves ._.

Mortis · Jul 21, 2017

[X] [Main] Census
[X] [Secondary] New Settlement - south of cataracts
[X] [Secondary] Integrate Colony - Hatvalley - Propagate

Raichu1972 · Jul 21, 2017

SpeckofStardust said:
She's the one bribing him.
She's the one offering up her body.
She's the one who could go see the someone to tell them that she being mistreated.

Oh, so because she had the option (that she didn't know she had) to tell on the tax collector (to who I wonder, the King far away in Valleyhome?) while she is starving because while on the way there she has no way to actually pay for any food, and then tell the King that his tax collector is corrupt (in most likely heavily accented Ymaryn because she is still learning the language) and then the King will make it all better?

That's some pretty heavy victim blaming you have going on there.

VoidZero · Jul 21, 2017

Civilization Stats

General
Diplomacy 12 [+2]
Economy 15 [-2+5]
-Sustainable Forests 7/8
-Econ Expansion 4 (+1) [+2-5]
Martial 10 {15}
Wealth 10 [+5-1]
Stability
Stability 0 (neutral)
Legitimacy 3 (max)
Organizational
Centralization 5
Hierarchy 7
Religious Authority 4
Cultural
Art 8
Mysticism 15 [+1]
Prestige 50

Actually, i think our problem is partly stemming from excess economy. Since there are a lot of people with money, and the less good people have money to bribe people to make more money.

So if we make everyone less rich then people may be kinder, or would have less bribe money at least. I should also note that capped Mysticism might contributed to Shamans/Priests being able to adopt children on a wider scale. But that may create issues down the road as well.

agumentic · Jul 21, 2017

SpeckofStardust said:
[X][Main] Raise Army

I think you want that 10 martial company, but you need to double main for that. Can't do it with Census and then Law.

notgreat · Jul 21, 2017

DragonParadox said:
We can take a stab increase on the mid turn.

No, we're starting The Law on the mid-turn with extremely high probability. We only get a single new-main action per mid-turn generally (along with a few other related decisions that are much more restricted)

BungieONI · Jul 21, 2017

VoidZero said:
I think while our system is a bit broken at the moment, it still is an improvement over plain slavery. Of course we are dealing with other issues, so fixing the system may not happen for a while.

At least the priests/shamans aren't short of children to educate.

Which is why her kids will probably be much better off.

This is basically the problem of an immigrant. America still hasn't figured it out. I think the only really truly long standing solution is to build a culture and society that teaches newcomers how to live, which is insanely difficult right now. The Law is a good first step though.

And you are right, it is a good boost over slavery. I'm mostly just very sad and don't want people to have to suffer so I am making a shot in the dark suggestion I think may help with that.

OliWhail · Jul 21, 2017

BungieONI said:
Options for you.

[] [Main] Census
[] [Secondary] New Settlement - south of cataracts
[] [Secondary] Found Mercenary Company

or

[X] [Main] Census
[X] [Secondary] Found Mercenary Company
[X] [Secondary] Integrate Colony - Hatvalley - Propagate

I'd keep either of settlement or propagate in order to maintain space for baby boom.

Cool, thank you very much!

[] [Main] Census
[] [Secondary] Found Mercenary Company
[] [Secondary] Found Mercenary Company x2

Kiba · Jul 21, 2017

AN did said she would get fabulously wealth if she knew the Law, which she don't, because nobody is going to teach her the knowledge she needs to be a great lawyer.

Raichu1972 · Jul 21, 2017

VoidZero said:
Actually, i think our problem is partly stemming from excess economy. Since there are a lot of people with money, and the less good people have money to bribe people to make more money.

So if we make everyone less rich then people may be kinder, or would have less bribe money at least. I should also note that capped Mysticism might contributed to Shamans/Priests being able to adopt children on a wider scale. But that may create issues down the road as well.

Making everyone less rich would involve getting less Wealth, not Economy.

Paths of Civilization

Seven gremlins in a trench coat

Passing Flan 布丁魔王

Passing Flan 布丁魔王

Seven gremlins in a trench coat