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Paths of Civilization

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drake_azathoth said:
It's almost like rather than targets in the form of evildoers presenting themselves to us, we're looking for targets who are just basically doing what they've always done and using their cultural differences to consider them an acceptable target.

Bizarre.

Like, I suppose we'll have to conquer everybody that buys slaves after this because if they continue to provide a demand somebody is going to look to be their supplier.
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the trellis legit just went turbo asshole though. last turn they were somewhat cutthroat traders, this turn they became slaving pirates. We didn't really have an issue with them worth going to war over until they turned murderous.
 

@McLuvin
Monsters are not universaly hated, there is quite the market for monster fetishes.




As for vilification, that's not really true of the thread, most folks obscenely glorify it. Hell there is more wank here than most Sci-fi fandoms.

As for me personally, my objections to certain aspects of the Ymaryn are a matter of common knowledge.

As for more general morality, I never vilified the Ymaryn except for the whole homogeneous cultural purity discussion that went on a few turns before. And that was more or less towards voter proposals.

Hell I advocated pragmatism and targeted brutality, and never complained about our warfare (well I did, but more in the it's not ruthless enough vein).


However my monster post was about explaining that the morality of the Ymaryn is just that, Ymaryn morality. It has no bearing or meaning outside of our sphere of influence. If we wish to spread our morals, we should be bloody honest and Proclaim imperial, holy and cultural wars against everyone. Instead of saying we love all of humanity whilst looking in utter disdain and contempt at those who are not us.

That's What I truly vilify; The hipocrasy of claiming communality with fellow man whilst Proclaiming to be special god chosen angels separate from the common dregs of civilisation.

Hell I find the whole concept of applying moral absolutism on history rather strange. morals and norms differ wildly, it would be like judging oranges by the metrics of asparagus. Yes the individual must be an absolutist, but to understand the past one must understand its rules, not the rules of the modern era.

So am I vilifiing the Ymaryn? One aspect of them yes.




Well that was quite the rant, a tad off topic, but oh well.
 
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maximillian said:
Monsters are not universaly hated, there is quite the market for monster fetishes.




As for vilification, that's not really true of the thread, most folks obscenely glorify it. Hell there is more wank here than most Sci-fi fandoms.

As for me personally, my objections to certain aspects of the Ymaryn are a matter of common knowledge.

As for more general morality, I never vilified the Ymaryn except for the whole homogeneous cultural purity discussion that went on a few turns before. And that was more or less towards voter proposals.

Hell I advocated pragmatism and targeted brutality, and never complained about our warfare (well I did, but more in the it's not ruthless enough vein).


However my monster post was about explaining that the morality of the Ymaryn is just that, Ymaryn morality. It has no bearing or meaning outside of our sphere of influence. If we wish to spread our morals, we should be bloody honest and Proclaim imperial, holy and cultural wars against everyone. Instead of saying we love all of humanity whilst looking in utter disdain and contempt at those who are not us.

That's What I truly vilify; The hipocrasy of claiming communality with fellow man whilst Proclaiming to be special god chosen angels separate from the common dregs of civilisation.

Hell I find the whole concept of applying moral absolutism on history rather strange. morals and norms differ wildly, it would be like judging oranges by the metrics of asparagus. Yes the individual must be an absolutist, but to understand the past one must understand its rules, not the rules of the modern era.

So am I vilifiing the Ymaryn? One aspect of them yes.




Well that was quite the rant, a tad off topic, but oh well.
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I don't have a problem judging the Ymaryn and holding them to a higher standard because we have been controlling their development.

If the Trelli start being assholes, which they did, we can either try and convince them to stop through shitting on their economy, or prepare for them trying to attack us.

If the Ymaryn start being assholes, we can attempt to find what development lead to said assholery and try and change them so that they are no longer assholes.
 
drake_azathoth said:
It's almost like rather than targets in the form of evildoers presenting themselves to us, we're looking for targets who are just basically doing what they've always done and using their cultural differences to consider them an acceptable target.

Bizarre.
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eh, one problematic civ's city at a time, eh?

ThrawnCA said:
By killing them when they board? Or even before they do?

Per WoAN the climate may kill them in the first three turns. Better hope we have plenty of actions free...

And loss of the trading post, to snow or wolves or the locals or maybe even nomads.

Maybe I'll add the approval vote, since I guess that loss of two subordinates isn't actually *larger* than having the Trelli do the same. OTOH, it may be even more likely.

Boring is good. I'd love a boring outcome to the Trelli situation. You want exciting, let's do multiple megaprojects simultaneously during a Golden Age :).
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So... we're going to just split up the entire company among all of our different trade ships going everywhere? Horrid thought.

Per WoAN the climate *##MAY!!!!* kill them within the first three turns. Boats + a single subordinate will help.

*shrug* The nomads don't exist nearby. The locals are too spread out to be a danger. Why would they die to wolves? They're a literal company of people with swords bows and houses. Winter and a lack of good planning is the most likely.

Boring is boring, and I already suggested doing that and was shot down by people being all "let's solve one thing at a time."

@BungieONI i meant the unfallen
 
I mean, don't get me wrong- the Trelli are slaving jackasses. It's just that, as our marshmallow roast of the Xoh children showed when we were 'saving them', jackasses are aplenty in these times.

Let's not pretend the Metal Workers and Tin Tribes aren't working their slaves to deaths in the mines to provide the demand for the suppliers here- and my experience with economics suggests that so long as the demand exists the supply will be found. I am all for fighting slavery, but this is almost like a 'war on drugs' where the effects even if we're successful might be minimal. Like, we stop the Trelli from selling slaves in our region. Now everyone to our West is grabbing slaves from civs along the Danube River who lived in peace before this, and the Khemetri have decided to conquer the northeastern Med to secure Tin cheaply. ' Success' may look pretty ugly.

Honestly, I feel that we'd do better to just try to reduce demand by conquering the Tin Tribes and Metal Workers and generally reducing the market for slaves so the demand evaporates, not try to cut off the supply. If slaving starts being more expensive than the price you get for slaves it will stop.
 
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maximillian said:
That's What I truly vilify; The hipocrasy of claiming communality with fellow man whilst Proclaiming to be special god chosen angels separate from the common dregs of civilisation
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Oh I'm not saying we should sit in a circle with our dipshit neighbors and sing kumbaya.
The Ymaryn are superior. No ifs or buts about it, our culture, our religion our looks and even our bodies are physically superior man to man. We are better then everyone else and I love being able to say that about the Ymaryn.

But I don't like the fact that our neighbour is using genocide, piracy and militarism to become a threat to us.

Trelli will have to one day be vassalised or destroyed, considering their position and culture it's the only outcome. I just want to keep them on a leash so we can delay that as long as possible, hopefully forcing them into vassalhood peacefully over the next century.
 
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It'd be nice to conquer them but finding the excuse to is harder than finding an excuse to conquer the Trell.
 
drake_azathoth said:
It's almost like rather than targets in the form of evildoers presenting themselves to us, we're looking for targets who are just basically doing what they've always done and using their cultural differences to consider them an acceptable target.

Bizarre.

Like, I suppose we'll have to conquer everybody that buys slaves after this because if they continue to provide a demand somebody is going to look to be their supplier.
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is there anything wrong with going for Emancipation CBs?
 
drake_azathoth said:
Honestly, I feel that we'd do better to just try to reduce demand by conquering the Tine Tribes and Metal Workers and generally reducing the market for slaves so the demand evaporates, not try to cut off the supply.
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So are you joining the internal stability and Chinese imperialist party? :V We will double our membership if you joined.

Manget said:
is there anything wrong with going for Emancipation CBs?
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Fighting a war to free slaves? It's a good excuse but the practice will not go away. Let's not even talk about the lawlessness and chaos after a war.
 
drake_azathoth said:
I mean, don't get me wrong- the Trelli are slaving jackasses. It's just that, as our marshmallow roast of the Xoh children showed when we were 'saving them', jackasses are aplenty in these times.

Let's not pretend the Metal Workers and Tin Tribes aren't working their slaves to deaths in the mines to provide the demand for the suppliers here- and my experience with economics suggests that so long as the demand exists the supply will be found. I am all for fighting slavery, but this is almost like a 'war on drugs' where the effects even if we're successful might be minimal. Like, we stop the Trelli from selling slaves in our region. Now everyone to our West is grabbing slaves from peaceful civs along the Danube River who lived in peace before this, and the Khemetri have decided to conquer the northeastern Med to secure Tin cheaply. ' Success' may look pretty ugly.

Honestly, I feel that we'd do better to just try to reduce demand by conquering the Tine Tribes and Metal Workers and generally reducing the market for slaves so the demand evaporates, not try to cut off the supply.
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for me at least it's more about the piracy and the militarism. a major power deciding it really likes raiding shit developing warships when most of our best shit is on the coast is not such a good geopolitical situation. It would be a matter of time before they either decided to raid us, or leverage naval dominance to force unfair trade deals.
 
VoidZero said:
So are you joining the internal stability and Chinese imperialist party? :V We will double our membership if you joined.



Fighting a war to free slaves? It's a good excuse but the practice will not go away. Let's not even talk about the lawlessness and chaos after a war.
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Imperialists party is already taken, get yer own faction terminology!


Or join the unholy alliance! You get free catnip!
 
BungieONI said:
Ahh. Yeah that too. Frankly those guys are just Happy Space Ents. And Space Fungus.

I'm okay with being them. Starlifting from multiple stellar masses for building material would be easier if we had a Bramble extending through our local cluster.
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Star lifting is a cool but weird concept. Is it possible to fuse matter on a large enough scale to turn hydrogen into, say, iron in usable quantities?
 
maximillian said:
@McLuvin
Monsters are not universaly hated, there is quite the market for monster fetishes.




As for vilification, that's not really true of the thread, most folks obscenely glorify it. Hell there is more wank here than most Sci-fi fandoms.

As for me personally, my objections to certain aspects of the Ymaryn are a matter of common knowledge.

As for more general morality, I never vilified the Ymaryn except for the whole homogeneous cultural purity discussion that went on a few turns before. And that was more or less towards voter proposals.

Hell I advocated pragmatism and targeted brutality, and never complained about our warfare (well I did, but more in the it's not ruthless enough vein).


However my monster post was about explaining that the morality of the Ymaryn is just that, Ymaryn morality. It has no bearing or meaning outside of our sphere of influence. If we wish to spread our morals, we should be bloody honest and Proclaim imperial, holy and cultural wars against everyone. Instead of saying we love all of humanity whilst looking in utter disdain and contempt at those who are not us.

That's What I truly vilify; The hipocrasy of claiming communality with fellow man whilst Proclaiming to be special god chosen angels separate from the common dregs of civilisation.

Hell I find the whole concept of applying moral absolutism on history rather strange. morals and norms differ wildly, it would be like judging oranges by the metrics of asparagus. Yes the individual must be an absolutist, but to understand the past one must understand its rules, not the rules of the modern era.

So am I vilifiing the Ymaryn? One aspect of them yes.




Well that was quite the rant, a tad off topic, but oh well.
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Have you met the United Federation of Planets yet?
 
Manget said:
is there anything wrong with going for Emancipation CBs?
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Yeah, honestly, I kinda feel there is. Since everyone in this time period DOES use slavery it's kind of an excuse to go to war with anyone. And I feel if we keep using it, it will eventually REQUIRE us to go to war with everyone.

Not only is that unsustainable, it's basically trying to bludgeon the world into working the way we want rather than try to understand it. There are issues like arms proliferation that spelled the death knell for slavery- we should use them and prove 'slavery doesn't work' rather than prove 'the Ymaryn are bastards'. Like, successful slave revolts may be easier or harder to engineer than conquest, but I feel they are a greater deterrent than just us busting heads.

Like, dry up the demand for slaves however we can and make taking and raising slaves more dangerous. Harder to do and slower, but it actually accomplishes something.
 
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drake_azathoth said:
Yeah, honestly, I kinda feel there is. Since everyone in this time period DOES use slavery it's kind of an excuse to go to war with anyone. And I feel if we keep using it, it will eventually REQUIRE us to go to war with everyone.

Not only is that unsustainable, it's basically trying to bludgeon the world into working the way we want rather than try to understand it. There are issues like arms proliferation that spelled the death knell for slavery- we should use them and prove 'slavery doesn't work' rather than 'the Ymaryn are bastards'.
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Technically not everyone, but most people.
 
Kiba said:
Yes. Just get a particle accelerator and build it on a GIANT SCALE. No new technology needed.

It's more efficient than a supernova explosion anyway.
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Step zero: Live as a computer program in a VR scape.
Step X-Y: How to be the best civ possible: Drive to a red giant. Harvest a bunch of asteroids for their metal. Establish a small particle accelerator, power array, and starlift setup. Generate more metal. Repeat, scaling upward until max efficiency is reached. Send some people off to a different Red Giant.
 
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