Just one more pro-more-refugee flip vote needed.

Okay, folks, my current vote is:
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[X] [Low] Send over assistance (Transfer 1 Econ + 1 Martial)
[X] [High] Humiliate (+1 Prestige, completes immediately)
[X] [RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Hatvalley
[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
[X] [City] No
[X] [Refugee] Bring in a bit more than usual (-1 Stab, potential further loss, +4-5 Econ)

Can I trade votes with anyone for 1 flip or 2 more -1.5 refugees vote?
 
Which was what was initially suggested during that time.

Do you remember how soon they started their Law after we started ours?

Megaproject Completed!
Written Code of Laws (Copper Age)
Bold, early innovators, the People have established an early written code of laws. While it will undoubtedly change over the centuries, this early establishment of what the rules definitely are with clear guidelines for punishment will serve as an important cornerstone for maintaining stability and clarity of order. Upgrades Enforce Authority to Enforce Law, doubles the strength of one Policy action per turn, and allows for the 'Megaproject support' Policy.

What is the purpose of law but to ensure the harmony of all people with each other and with the spirits? This is the principle literally carved into the law and placed on display throughout the Land for all to see. And when the traders who came from the south saw the king go to the stele, read off the wisdom of the ancestors, and then politely tell them that among the most important laws is that all who come to the People are to be welcomed, and to avoid disharmony with those who have not declared violence. Thus the king says, if the Thunder Horse wish to trade with the People the People will welcome them, and if the Highland Kingdom doesn't like that, well, they'll have to take it up more strongly than just making such a demand.

From the way the traders went paler than nomads from distant lands of snow, and retreated with a look that suggested that their testicles were trying to drag their butts into their chest, apparently this was a considerably more terrifying suggestion than the king had initially though. A year later another caravan arrived, this time with lavish goods offered in apology, along with rumours rebounding back to the south of how the People had such terrifying magic that they had woven a geas over their entire population.
The Law - Main Turn result. The Law completed
Harmony in Law - Mid turn result. Highlanders learn about the Law when they demanded we fight the Thunder Speakers and were told to fuck off because the Law says so.
Death by Taxes - Main Turn result
End of Crisis - Mid Turn result
Just like you imagined - Main turn result
Healing Magic - Mid Turn result - Xohyssiri learn about The Law with a delegation to repay the Cholera cure.
So much salt - Main Turn result. Highlanders begin The Law after succession crisis resolved.
New ventures - Mid Turn result - Ymaryn learn about Xohyssiri Great Temple
As the tides - Main Turn result. Highlanders trigger legitimacy drop from The Law decisions, with a breakaway province.
The salt must flow - Mid turn result. Heroic Main turn result. Magwyna saves Highlanders from rebellion with Salt Gift. Magwyna comes up with the idea of the Census, but lacks the prereqs.
Dreams of Bureaucrats - Mid turn result. Heroic Main turn result. Magwyna's son comes up with the idea of the Library to meet the Census prereq. Highlanders demonstrate behavior which looks vaguely like The Law's effects.

Threw in a few random observations. Would take too much time to actually be detailed.
Short version:
-Highlanders learn about The Law in the same generation it was made.
-Highlanders start The Law 3 generations after we finished it.
-Highlanders PROBABLY finished it 6-7 generations after we finished it.
 
The Law - Main Turn result. The Law completed
Harmony in Law - Mid turn result. Highlanders learn about the Law when they demanded we fight the Thunder Speakers and were told to fuck off because the Law says so.
Death by Taxes - Main Turn result
End of Crisis - Mid Turn result
Just like you imagined - Main turn result
Healing Magic - Mid Turn result - Xohyssiri learn about The Law with a delegation to repay the Cholera cure.
So much salt - Main Turn result. Highlanders begin The Law after succession crisis resolved.
New ventures - Mid Turn result - Ymaryn learn about Xohyssiri Great Temple
As the tides - Main Turn result. Highlanders trigger legitimacy drop from The Law decisions, with a breakaway province.
The salt must flow - Mid turn result. Heroic Main turn result. Magwyna saves Highlanders from rebellion with Salt Gift. Magwyna comes up with the idea of the Census, but lacks the prereqs.
Dreams of Bureaucrats - Mid turn result. Heroic Main turn result. Magwyna's son comes up with the idea of the Library to meet the Census prereq. Highlanders demonstrate behavior which looks vaguely like The Law's effects.

Threw in a few random observations. Would take too much time to actually be detailed.
Short version:
-Highlanders learn about The Law in the same generation it was made.
-Highlanders start The Law 3 generations after we finished it.
-Highlanders PROBABLY finished it 6-7 generations after we finished it.
Thanks veekie.

I wonder what their legitimacy dropping choice was? Something really un-popular with everyone except the King I would think i.e it pissed off their nobles.

E: Seems like their system was also really fragile/decentralized, possibly over-extended, or that was a big legit hit if a province broke off.
 
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if the HK steal our reforms again I will be wroth
I actively pushed to help them steal the reforms. It means culture conversion if they want to USE it
It'd probably either a) Break their system into tiny little pieces with the various complexities involved or b) be utterly worthless since they do not have currency.

And a) would be because we have: A huge trading network, a proto-stockmarket, currency, and a huge population with millennia of admin advances to name a few. If they tried to implement all of that they'd probably pop due to all the progressive strain.
Yeah a couple of big differences:
-Ymaryn law assumes that once you get a piece of land, it's your country's for good. No accounting for people refusing to hand it over to a better user, or loss in war. Our economy is fully integrated with every piece.
--There is a lot of laws and subregulations about the transfer of land admin rights and management as well as regulations about protecting the land.
---Want to see what happens to a Hereditary Land culture that copies that by accident? Hint: Rebellion.

-Ymaryn law has a lot of restrictions on private ownership, hoarding and taxes.
--Most of these would be a nightmare to manage for a more capitalist society like the Highlanders. Those without the culture backing it up will be furious at the idea of repossession of property.

-Ymaryn law has a lot of regulations on how to reward land quality and improvements, and penalties on how to punish misuse of the land, but in exchange the assumption is that the government gets most of the returns and redistributes it.
--Most of these are going to be completely insane to implement if you don't have an army of clerks. And if the land doesn't pay to the government.



Yeah you wanna implement these super advanced and progressive things without the background infrastructure? Okay I'll let you try. <- Crow teaching a dumbass a lesson.

-Ymaryn law is complex as fuck because every town, down to the smallest village, has at least one literate priest in it. We got that from Sacred Warding. Additionally, due to our absurdly high Hierarchy, we have a large percentage of clerks and accountants who are also literate/semi-literate to double check the priests interpretations and avoid utter bullshit.
--It's going to be pretty funny to see people try to supply enough people who can read and understand the laws, until they realize you could just make ONLY your noble class literate.

No, we went through our Trelli hatred phase. I remember a lot of people were immediately in favour of killing them off as a knee-jerk reaction to meeting them.
That was when we found out they dominate the slave trade I think. And that they'd potentially attack trade posts near them.
Well actually there was a big funk about the Trelli when they first appeared.

Then the Khem showed up and we hated them for a second. Then we realized, "Oh wait this dude is a scrub trader who is posturing and we are seeing culture clash".
We realized it for a while, just that people don't quite realize the somewhat gangsta posturing between traders going on as subtext.
Some damn fools who deny the word of the holy sheep and have orgies with trees.
Bacchians/Dionysians? Though IIRC even the sheep were not safe from them.

And then there was Aleister Crowley...
 
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And then there was Aleister Crowley...
Uhh do I wanna know what he did?

--It's going to be pretty funny to see people try to supply enough people who can read and understand the laws, until they realize you could just make ONLY your noble class literate.
It's gonna be hilarious to see it if they try.

-Ymaryn law assumes that once you get a piece of land, it's yours for good.
I'm not sure on this one. Isn't it still "It's yours till your chief/boss/headdude says otherwise", or did it change and where did it? Nevermind you changed it a bit and I agree now.
Agree with the rest.

E: And this doesn't even include all the currency bullarky into the mix.
 
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@ctulhuslp why do you want the second level refugee influx? We don't need the Econ, and we certainly don't need the extra voices or stability loss.
 
Still no answer about whether we can reintegrate Free Cities later :|

If we can, and given we will soon integrate the Stallions, there's no real downside to the Free City, and lots of short-term benefits like winning the current debates and making Cent space for more trails.

Incidentally, did anyone else read AN's statement on Cent being yellow to mean, not that the red cap has dropped from 6 to 5, but that we now, with better awareness, get yellow at both 4 and 5?
 
Uhh do I wanna know what he did?
Cake of Light - Wikipedia

For starters
Still no answer about whether we can reintegrate Free Cities later :|

If we can, and given we will soon integrate the Stallions, there's no real downside to the Free City, and lots of short-term benefits like winning the current debates and making Cent space for more trails.

Incidentally, did anyone else read AN's statement on Cent being yellow to mean, not that the red cap has dropped from 6 to 5, but that we now, with better awareness, get yellow at both 4 and 5?
Reminder that though we could theoretically integrate Marches, it was neither easy nor painless to set up.
 
Incidentally, did anyone else read AN's statement on Cent being yellow to mean, not that the red cap has dropped from 6 to 5, but that we now, with better awareness, get yellow at both 4 and 5?
Hmm! Interesting thought. I don't particularly want to test it but it is a good thought.


Cake of Light - Wikipedia

For starters

Reminder that though we could theoretically integrate Marches, it was neither easy nor painless to set up.
*sees reference to menstrual blood and/or semen*

*other interesting things*

Well.
 
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Hmm! Interesting thought. I don't particularly want to test it but it is a good thought.
Probably one of those things that the Palace would clear up.
And more roads too.

At present we don't even know how close we are to the edge, communications were that bad.
But the previous few turns' strain would make sense if the cap was actually lower than we thought it was and we didn't realize it because we were at Red(and thought we were at Yellow) with a long series of Heroic leaders.

Hell, Phygrif's actions was textbook Red Centralization in hindsight "Do dumb things really REALLY efficiently" describes that turn perfectly doesn't it?
*sees reference to menstrual blood and/or semen*

*other interesting things*

Well.
He had fetishes and was not afraid to promote them.
 
But the previous few turns' strain would make sense if the cap was actually lower than we thought it was and we didn't realize it because we were at Red(and thought we were at Yellow) with a long series of Heroic leaders.
Makes some sense since Rulwyna and her band were at full capacity dealing with Red 6 Cent, which seems a bit odd considering she was a Admin Hero explicitly.
 
@ctulhuslp why do you want the second level refugee influx? We don't need the Econ, and we certainly don't need the extra voices or stability loss.
Agreed. I see no reason to go for the tier 2 refugees right now. I'd still like to learn more about the ??? effects, but we should do that in a time that we're safe, not in the middle of admin and tax woes. We've just massively reinforced the trait during the Enforce Justice spree we did, it's about as strong as it can get, and going just 1 stage up really isn't gonna help all that much.

It's a bad trade mechanically and doesn't do much narratively. IMHO it makes more sense to do the occasional big push than a bunch of medium ones, that's much more damaging to our neighbors' plans and it gives us unique opportunities.
 
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Makes some sense since Rulwyna and her band were at full capacity dealing with Red 6 Cent, which seems a bit odd considering she was a Admin Hero explicitly.
Admin hero supported by two more heroes, and exactly at the cap but so massively overloaded...yeah, it did seem kind of hinky in hindsight. Especially when her Hero father was completely lost with the day to day admin despite being merely Mediocre.

Our Hierarchy at least helped offset the fireworks, but also MASKED the problem.
 
[X] [Refugee] Just those who come of their own initiative (Potential stab loss, +2 Econ)

Adding this portion of vote

Edit: adding old vote as well.

[X] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)

[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)

[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)

[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
Adhoc vote count started by Finite on Jul 8, 2017 at 4:59 AM, finished with 70285 posts and 103 votes.
 
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Admin hero supported by two more heroes, and exactly at the cap but so massively overloaded...yeah, it did seem kind of hinky in hindsight. Especially when her Hero father was completely lost with the day to day admin despite being merely Mediocre.

Our Hierarchy at least helped offset the fireworks, but also MASKED the problem.
I am more and more appreciating every day that we setup a advisor system.

One of our best decisions ever.
 
[X] [Refugee] Just those who come of their own initiative (Potential stab loss, +2 Econ)

Adding this portion of vote
@Finite

You need to post the whole vote or the rest of your vote gets dropped.

I am more and more appreciating every day that we setup a advisor system.

One of our best decisions ever.
People say our hypercentralization is the defining quality of our civilization(it's not particularly, though we like it high, it swings around), but I suspect our hierarchy is probably 5 points over theirs.
 
People say our hypercentralization is the defining quality of our civilization(it's not particularly, though we like it high, it swings around), but I suspect our hierarchy is probably 5 points over theirs.
Pseudo-Chinese Bureaucracy here we come!

Hmm. I wonder if setting up a Bureaucracy can count as a Megaproject. We've certainly spent enough actions on it.

I wonder if people like the HK have artificially high Hierarchy, with few actual levels but because of various rules normal peasants of the HK are just not allowed to speak to the king of the Highlanders creating artificial distance. This is me remembering that some component of Hierarchy is visibility of the king among their subjects as evidenced by the child vote.
 
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@ctulhuslp why do you want the second level refugee influx? We don't need the Econ, and we certainly don't need the extra voices or stability loss.
1. We ALWAYS need Econ and large amounts of it, especially when we've got a megaproject lined up.
2. Taking the second level refugee influx will help more people. It's the way of the People to help others even if it hurts us.
3. Synergy with Improve Festival may result in the extra voices being a positive effect.
4. Progress to trait evolution.
 
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Interestingly, Trails might have reduced our Centralization cap, because we're that much more able to be inundated with lower-level concerns.
 
@ctulhuslp why do you want the second level refugee influx? We don't need the Econ, and we certainly don't need the extra voices or stability loss.

1. Because the CA is a thing that needs constant maintenance; everything we do is a habit, and they can degrade without usage. It does not do so immediately, but, well, we did not have a direct warning of Nobility in Humility going away until it went away; we are not going to be warned CA is dead until it is too late so I'd rather err on the side of caution, and -1.5 is not really that bad, especially since we are at +1.Helping people is a good habit to have.
2. Not only for CA effects, but for the cultural moral imperative of acceptance and help; I asssume that a big part of our no-civil-wars streak is that people with diverging values and viewpoints (namely, North vs South) are willing to tolerate the opinions and views of people they disagree with, as long as no lines in the sand are crossed. Without CA and such things it narratively says about us, interprovincial strife would be much more severe, I imagine (although Symphony would have mitigated it to some degree).

3. For the chance to learn more about Swamp Folks, ideally to steal their farming techs and the cultures they farm (rice? papyrus?). But even failing tech steal, at least some information would not go amiss. And AN has confirmed we are getting some refugees from both Swampers and Thunder Horse despite distances.

So, mostly narrative internal and external intel effects, plus tech steal; Econ payout is mostly a side bonus.
I view CA as a kind of "pay Stability to get hidden resistance to strife due to different opinions and a chance to techsteal from literally everyone", Econ is kind of cherry on top of that.


It's a bad trade mechanically and doesn't do much narratively. IMHO it makes more sense to do the occasional big push than a bunch of medium ones, that's much more damaging to our neighbors' plans and it gives us unique opportunities.

What. Like, man, just look at how North views South as total weirdos and yet do not go about how those weaklings deserve to die; or how traders are not viewed with disdain by warriors; or how priests do not look down at everyone else; or how warriors can literally adress the chief as "Hey, King, what's up with your customs?", recognize and admit disagreement without nobody batting an eye.

CA + Symphony is a big reason that we have not had a single civil war yet, and I have no idea why you think that habit of tolerance and understanding can possibly mean "not much narratively".
 
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