BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
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We got one of the important ones of "Don't be dicks to your neighbours or they will pay you back at the worst possible moment".
That is always good advice.
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
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That is always good advice.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
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We seem to be missing that one at the moment. Or at least we have added on "if you are going to be a dick to them destory them completly."
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
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More like we saw the direct application of it in recent times, except we take the role of the neighbors and we thought child sacrifice was enough of a reason. (In the Bronze Age it is because hey the sacrificers might be pissing off the gods and thus the Xoh could be considered to be acting like dicks towards us)
We definitely saw it in the Lowlands Minors when they sacked Xohyr with us.
E: On the other hand your addendum is valid, though it can lead to the point where you have to destroy all of your neighbors.
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ThrawnCA
Carbon-based biped
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Note that Phygrif was an outsider to our values. He was learning, but still a nomad at heart.
And nomadic warfare has little or no concept of "over-extension".
Didn't take long for his ignorance/dismissal of this rule to bite us, either.
If it was a wonder I would think it's more likely those affected by the inferiority pulse would just be forced to bake some basic assumptions about how their own laws have to operate from ours.
BungieONI
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This too.
Can't expect non-literate outsiders who are more interested in war to remember a thing in our library which kinda runs counter to his initial values.
I doubt it's a Wonder per say and more of a Tier Upgrade. I had something of an inkling that we would need to upgrade it when it said Written Code of Laws (Copper Age).
I think part of it is that you have to take into account the kind of Megaproject it is when considering if it will really be a Wonder or not.
There is also the factor that some Wonders, even if perfectly maintained, may drop from Wonder Status as tech increases though I expect such a thing to take quite some time.
There is also the note that in order to be blocked from doing a Wonder by the Wonder Pulse, you have to at least be in tertiary contact with the civ that built the Wonder. So Ancient Not!China for example could make such a code of laws.
And/or this too.
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BungieONI
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Is it the same for China and Eastern Law?
Also I am not sure but I think the Romans cribbed some stuff from Hammurabi. So that particular code could be considered our nth-great grandparent.
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maximillian
Civilised Sheep
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BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
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Eee. That's a Demon Sheep. Do I need to grab the Buddhist mantras and preform an exorcism?Hat of the dragon Hunter
Oh also do you happen to know how much the Code of Hammurabi influenced the Roman Law codes?
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Nah, it's more that some megaprojects are essentially the implementation of certain technologies. Also, younger civilizations that developed with or after certain advancements can gain access to certain systems without having to first break their backs on megaprojects because the hard work of figuring things out has already been done.
Not exactly.
Our priests are the Pure Research theoreticians. They explore all the weird shit for the sake of exploration, but would prefer that the weird shit remain firmly in their hands. Further more, most religious authority backed influences operate at the first order level, the minority pursuing second order interpretations are rarer and usually drowned out by the more publically digestible ideas of direct interpretation.
Additionally, our priests will resist research which are against our values, examples are:
-Divine Stewards - This opposes anything which disturbs the environment or nature in any way, but promotes that which helps the environment even if the cost is steep. Examples of this was to do with smelting metals, the rodeo, and even back in antiquity organizing settlements and building roads(we've since grown to a more nuanced understanding fortunately).
-Death/impurity Taboo - This opposes anything which deals with dead bodies, or decomposition in any way. Fortunately we have half exiles to blunt the damage, but it HAS substantially damaged our ability to advance in surgery, and of course we had to increase the number of half exiles to cope with all the leather processing coming out of the Sacred Warding herds. It also somewhat makes warriors, especially as mercenaries far from our culture base, unhappy since in their career they don't get much CHOICE in the matter unless we increase the Carrion Eaters to handle such. A fair bit of doublethink involved here.
Which overall don't make things worse or better so much as make them more complicated.
Naw, oversimplifying.
We can see in the Nomads that people were egalitarian when at the edge of survival. Everyone had to play every part, even if they didn't enjoy it. This is equality born of necessity.
When you moved to settled peoples, the production of children rises in importance as it determines how much you could get out of the land. This puts a ding into women's rights due to the hazards of childbirth, multiple pregnancies substantially damaged their ability to get involved in, or excel in trades. Tendencies then become custom, custom becomes culture, and culture becomes law. You fight this by improving healthcare, with less infant mortality, there is less pressure to have multiple children so some survive.
Furthermore, when farming depends a lot upon physical strength(which increases as you add irrigation, terrace farms and other labor intensive constructions), sons tended to be more useful as sources of labor than daughters, which stacked on top. You fight this by the development of better tools and alternative sources of energy like animal, wind and water power, which offset the demands of raw physical strength in labor, and by the development of physically independent trades like scribes, priests and the like, which leveled the playing field.
Then you had war, which damaged it much further. On average, a lot more men are going to be in the military, which meant a lot of them are going to die, which in turn means that what men are left need to take multiple wives(which in turn dilutes the political power of the women as political power is based on the family unit and there's always more or equal numbers of women to men in each family). You fight this by basically not fighting. Which isn't an option for most cultures.
Ultimately, for most cultures by the time they get the technology to cope with these problems, they've already locked it in culturally and their religion will reinforce it.
Legitimacy has it's uses, though I'd personally try to make sure Religiou Authority isn't TOO far behind, so they are still kept in check.
That said a throne made of swords makes absolutely no sense to the Ymaryn.
Shovels, sickles, axes, quills, etc. We pride ourselves in our labor, not in war.
BungieONI
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Is that basically what happened with the HK? They didn't have to do a full mega of their own Law? Or was it too early?
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So they're tech priests?
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Can I go for groceries in peace or should I wait?
Does that mean they'd tend to use the Ymaryn Code as the basis then? It saves a lot of work, and even with adjustments to their culture, they'd have some quirks and themes slipping in as they reference ours.
There are some similarities!
BungieONI
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Yeah pretty much in that all of their knowledge is tied up in ritual.
Except with an actual drive for innovation, so in ways better than tech priests.
maximillian
Civilised Sheep
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Not much , not directly or consciously anyways, several centuries, a dozen languages, half a dozen cilivilizational collapses and a continent separated the two.
Any influence would be a runoff thing, as in how did A influence B, and B influenced C, and C D. Until you get to Y which is were rome is at.
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They learned more about it and implemented their own version, without entirely needing the prereqs to do so. That said...
Yeah, there are a couple of places where at the very least the structure of the laws are presented with definite familiarity for the People.
Friday nights I'm out, so I'm checking the thread before bed. Going to probably be about another twelve hours at least.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
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Thank you.
I thought they were much closer together on the timeline and had some form of at least one step removed contact.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
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We need more libraries to allow us to upgrade love of Wisdom more.
BungieONI
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Oooooh that sounds mildly ominous for them.
Somewhat. If we were a post collapse splinter I could see a drive to reattain past glories instead.
Nifty. Basically took the overall laws, considered what they didn't want to keep/couldn't afford to keep, struck those off, then considered what's unique to them and added it in.
Handy way to stealth propagate culture. E.g. the laws on proper corpse disposal responsibility might be copied, though they'd laugh and strike out the whole thing on regulating prostitution. They may or may not keep the anti-hoarding laws, since the King would be in favor even if the less powerful nobles wouldn't.
And then there'd be the traps like trying to implement our tax code without the intellectual infrastructure to have people to assess them properly.
BungieONI
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Which was what was initially suggested during that time.
Do you remember how soon they started their Law after we started ours?
That'd be solidly tech priest.