Interestingly, Trails might have reduced our Centralization cap, because we're that much more able to be inundated with lower-level concerns.
This is one of the ideas bopping around basically falling under the header of "as we can actively interact with more shit, our system gets more strained and people have to delegate(Cent cap drop)".
 
Just, like, look at this shit:
"Hey, king?" One of the warriors who had been nearby asked, causing Rulhuthyn to glance over at the man in curiosity over what was so important.

"Yes?" The king demanded.

"What was all that about 'glories of your ancestors'?" The man asked.

The king blinked a few times before he said, "You know, how when your ancestors fall in glorious duty to the People how you need to keep those deeds and traditions alive, to inspire the next generation?"

The warrior looked back at him somewhat blankly and then said, "No... no, I mean, I know that falling in battle or service to the People otherwise is a good thing for the afterlife..."

"Really? I thought they had that in the south?" Rulhuthyn asked incredulously.

The Carrion Eater who had showed up to begin the task of cleaning up the enemy corpse said, "The issue was reviewed by the temple but it never quite came up. The differences weren't considered a major sticking point."

"Huh," a couple of people all noted at that.

In some other people, that would be a pissing contest between divergent values. Our folks see different opinions, go literally "Huh, that's weird, but whatever" and that's it. That's CA in action, more or less, and it's narrative impact is fucking huge.
 
Interestingly, Trails might have reduced our Centralization cap, because we're that much more able to be inundated with lower-level concerns.
To be honest it is probably a combination of: Trails let us see more low level concerns, West Wall transferring their province when we are already having some issues, and stat interactions and heroes meaning we have been hovering at or above cap without realizing it. Plus some other things I am forgetting.

And it all sums up into the set of points that we really need a upgrade and then stay on top of it after.

E: Though ThrawnCA raises a point that our cap may not have dropped and instead our increased connectivity gives us two yellow numbers as we have more info.
 
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I fear that Cosmopolitan Acceptance may be at risk of being lost or damaged in the debates if we pick the minimum option.
 
:jackiechan:

How to deal with foreign gods?
[] [RA] Stamp down on all of this (-2 Stability, +2 Religious Authority)
[] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)
[] [RA] The correct gods will make themselves known (-1 Religious Authority, potential shift in Spiritual Values)

[] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)
[] [RA] The correct gods will make themselves known (-1 Religious Authority, potential shift in Spiritual Values)

Please, very much, read the vote options more carefully because this is silly.

CA is a SOCIAL value and thus exempt.
 
CA isn't spiritual, and spiritual values are the ones that are on the chopping block.

e-

Yeah.
 
I view CA as a kind of "pay Stability to get hidden resistance to strife due to different opinions and a chance to techsteal from literally everyone", Econ is kind of cherry on top of that.
I'm not really sure how you came to this conclusion given that the very definition of CA is that we are getting Econ, massive population increases, and low chances for tech in exchange for internal strife. The trait pulls in large numbers of strange people with strange ideas and then forces them to conform to the norms of our society and forces our society to conform to them in some small ways.

Hell, we have seen what happens when we repeatedly take in large numbers of refugees. People get grumpy because of a bunch of new strangers doing strange things. The loss of stability is a direct, narrative, correlation with an increase in internal strife.

On all other points I agree with you. Morally, narratively, and mechanically, it is one of our most useful and high quality traits, and the benefits it provides are numerous. There is a time and place for everything, however. It is a wonderful trait to use when we are otherwise stable, but despite our current +1 stability, we are not stable. We are going through a period of economic and religious strife. On the religious side, proving our beliefs to be correct is likely going to ride on numerous factors, and our populace's confidence in themselves and the kingdom is paramount in this. So I fail to see how causing social strife is beneficial at this moment. We are also going through a massive economic upheaval which we are only just seeing the initial ramifications of. Adding more of a burden to our administration than already exists while the system is currently crashing down around our ears seems like the height of folly.

Now, if we hadn't so recently taken the maximum refugee option just a few turns ago, I might be more sympathetic to your worry of losing the trait. However, not only did we take in the maximum number, but we have, for the followup turns taken in multiple small waves every main turn and several waves during a secondary addition. There were also innumerable silent waves of incoming refugees.

So, I suppose I will rephrase. Why do we need to take the tier 2 refugee option now?

@Andres110
  1. Ok, sure, but 4-5 Econ isn't much anyway in exchange for a full stability point which has multiple secondary narrative effects and isn't exactly easy to replace. Remember, whenever stability drops, corruption increases and people lose faith in the kingdom and the system. Econ hasn't been a hard thing to generate in at least twenty turns, and with just a single secomdary action, we can generate all of that Econ you are so passionate for without all of the secondary effects. Furthermore, with a single secondary policy switch, we can generate more Econ that we can possibly use. Econ isn't a great reason to do this.
  2. This is why you are picking this, and it is the only real reason. Everything else is a rationalization for a choice based solely on emotion. You also aren't wrong. I even agree with the sentiment. I just simply think there is a time and place for everything, and now just isn't the time. We simply have too much going on.
  3. When has this ever happened? Ever? Also, why on earth would you think that more voices added on the opposing side of the debate would help? Seriously?
  4. This is base speculation. There is no reason to think that taking in refugees in higher numbers fills up some sort of trait progress bar. We have had this trait for ages and the only time it ever evolved was when we merged it with greater good. We have taken multiple instances of tier 2 and higher refugee influxes. The traits are a narrative and mechanical framework that we have seen change only in instances of great narrative flux.
If there are any major spelling errors I'm on an iPad, so I apologize.
 
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:jackiechan:





Please, very much, read the vote options more carefully because this is silly.

CA is a SOCIAL value and thus exempt.
Alright, calm down, it was just a simple mistake. No need to get twisted up in a knot.

When has this ever happened? Ever? Also, why on earth would you think that more voices added on the opposing side of the debate would help? Seriously?
It's a bunch of people coming out of utter shitholes to a place that a refugee a long time ago equated with paradise. They are then introduced to a party where they can join in and where they'll learn about the People and our gods. Then they go "You know, I kind of have to agree with the priests. This place is a lot better than where we came from so your gods probably are the better ones if so much good can come under them."

The Red Banner guys spreading the word of the crap gods just think of our civilisation as normal. The extra voices are needed to bring the outside perspective that paints our civilisation as a truly wonderful place to live, and with it the "proof" that our gods really are better than their gods.
 
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CA + Symphony is a big reason that we have not had a single civil war yet, and I have no idea why you think that habit of tolerance and understanding can possibly mean "not much narratively".
Specifically upgrading from level 1 to level 2 doesn't do much narratively. CA as a trait does major stuff narratively, but increasing the refugee level by that tiny amount doesn't, not when we're still integrating the previous major batches.
 
It's a bunch of people coming out of utter shitholes to a place that a refugee a long time ago equated with paradise. They are then introduced to a party where they can join in and where they'll learn about the People and our gods. Then they go "You know, I kind of have to agree with the priests. This place is a lot better than where we came from so your gods probably are the better ones if so much good can come under them."
This is so idealistic it almost hurts. Society and people simply don't work this way on short timescales. Hell, look at Americas current immigration crisis.

This has also never happened in this quest. Ever.

It has always taken time and a rigorous regimen of policing through restore order and enforce justice in order to make people conform and keep the chiefs in charge of them honest.
 
Specifically upgrading from level 1 to level 2 doesn't do much narratively. CA as a trait does major stuff narratively, but increasing the refugee level by that tiny amount doesn't, not when we're still integrating the previous major batches.

Still better than not increasing.
Like, it's not much, but it is something.
 
Still better than not increasing.
Like, it's not much, but it is something.
And that is worth a full stability point and all the trouble associated with that drop?

How do you propose raising stability? It isn't like we have much, if any leeway in centralization.

That is the whole point here. You want just a little bit more for a huge relative cost. I mean is 2-3 Econ worth a whole stability point? We can spend that amount just getting that stability back.

Edit: Holy hell, it is 04:00. I'm going back to sleep.
 
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And that is worth a full stability point and all the trouble associated with that drop?

How do you propose raising stability? It isn't like we have much, if any leeway in centralization.

That is the whole point here. You want just a little bit more for a huge relative cost. I mean is 2-3 Econ worth a whole stability point? I mean, we can spend that amount just getting that astability back.

Yes, it is worth it.
RO+PG for +1-3 Stability at cost of -3 Art, -1 Econ. We have not done RO for quite a while anyway, so it is quite overdue.
Delays Palace for one turn, which is bad, but is otherwise a good combo to use time to time.
Or, if you want only 1 action, Festivals. Way worse narratively, but will give Stability, so ehh.

As for why it is worth it - as I've said, to encourage the mode of thinking which leads to taking in more people, which is tolerance and generosity. Yes, it is not full -3, but I take what I can get.

Agaain, it is not for Stability, it is for encouraging practice of helping people in need and accepting them, which then shows in religious and regional divides being less likely to grow into violence and people being ready to accept foreign ideas if they have merit (cue Iron).

Taking the least option is a tradeoff too, you know. So, well, why do you think it is better than -1.5 option? How do you propose raising our tolerance otherwise - for Stability raising we have actions, for 'not being assholes' not so much.
So far defenders of the least option tended to just describe other ones as more risky and almost...superfluous? Luxurious? Not austere enough?
Not sure how to explain it, but I am frankly tired of discussion where I explain the benefits of higher option in at least 3 (or was it more by now?) quite posts in less than two days, while my opponents, instead of explaining benefits (both narrative and numerical...although numerical ones are saving up 1 action, basically) of their choice, spend time picking away at mine.

1 stability-restoring action saved is all I can see in terms of benefits from the least option (refugees taking is Econ-neutral, given the restoration options costs).
Effectively, the apt underselled (it ignores 'glue our people together by traditions of tolerance' aspect, which is quite a big deal too) description of -1.5 as compared to -0.5 is "take 1 action to get a more likely to win shot at techstealing and foreign intel", which is a deal worth taking on its own, I think.


TL;DR: What do we gain from the least option as opposed to taking some more, besides 1 action? What is the comparative benefit that makes it worthwhile?
 
How do you propose raising our tolerance otherwise - for Stability raising we have actions, for 'not being assholes' not so much.
We just did. Right this turn.

When confronted with foreign beliefs opposing us, we didn't crush them out. We put them up to debate to determine their value relative to ours and whether we should adopt them.

THAT, is the definition of Cosmopolitan Acceptance, considering the values of other cultures as valid and deserving consideration
 
@ctulhuslp why do you want the second level refugee influx? We don't need the Econ, and we certainly don't need the extra voices or stability loss.
We're at war on multiple fronts. Every Econ point we drain from our neighbors means less soldiers for them, and more for us (via We Have Reserves and similar traits), meaning better chances of success on each front.

It wouldn't be hard for that to save us from losing a Stability point (Divine Stewards), thus even paying for itself.

We may not need the Econ as Econ, but we do need all the military advantages we can get ATM. CA offers an unblockable strike at every enemy nearby, and it pays us for it.

@veekie You wanted to take territory from the HK, to take them out of the war, until it became clear that there may be more Cent/admin woes than we realised. Well, Econ drain is an alternative path to crippling them. If we could launch a -3 strike, we'd likely push them close to bankruptcy. Even -1 still has to hurt; +4 Econ for us, with our higher population, is known to represent something different (probably a larger figure) for them.

It's even OK narratively. Defeating them, not through battle, but simply by being so awesome that their own people would rather switch sides? Great!
 
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We just did. Right this turn.

When confronted with foreign beliefs opposing us, we didn't crush them out. We put them up to debate to determine their value relative to ours and whether we should adopt them.

THAT, is the definition of Cosmopolitan Acceptance, considering the values of other cultures as valid and deserving consideration

Only really relevant decision to our priests and rulers, with some caveats such as traders, RB and those who talk to those mentioned.

Compared to that, refugee taking impacts all populace. I mean, yes, it could impact our spiritual (mind you, spiritual and not social, which probably means things about the classes of society most impacted - especially in theological debating, which can be somewhat abstracted from everyday life) values, so there is some potential for more widespread impact, but would have way less spread than refugees.

My point still seems to stand just as strongly unless you have a reason to believe theological debate has a lot of impact on tradition of generosity in some random farming community in, say, Redshore.
 
Not sure how to explain it, but I am frankly tired of discussion where I explain the benefits of higher option in at least 3 (or was it more by now?) quite posts in less than two days, while my opponents, instead of explaining benefits (both narrative and numerical...although numerical ones are saving up 1 action, basically) of their choice, spend time picking away at mine.
I don't know why I'm still awake, but whatever.

Ok, so, I'm pretty sure I've stated a benefit numerous times. Hell, my entire post (the long one) was about that singular benefit.

What is that benefit? It is keeping just one more pressure off of a society that is currently fit to burst. The only reason I want that tier 1 option is that we know taking in refugees is difficult at the social and administrative levels. Both of these are areas that are currently at the breaking point.

I think stressing our administration with a larger than normal refugee influx and increasing the stress in the debates is absolutely stupid. Point blank.

If it was one or the other, I could happily condone bringing in more people, because I agree with you about how CA works, but it isn't. It's both, and more refugees is a direct stressor on both of these issues.
 
[X] [Refugee] Bring in a bit more than usual (-1 Stab, potential further loss, +4-5 Econ)
 
I don't know why I'm still awake, but whatever.

Ok, so, I'm pretty sure I've stated a benefit numerous times. Hell, my entire post (the long one) was about that singular benefit.

What is that benefit? It is keeping just one more pressure off of a society that is currently fit to burst. The only reason I want that tier 1 option is that we know taking in refugees is difficult at the social and administrative levels. Both of these are areas that are currently at the breaking point.

I think stressing our administration with a larger than normal refugee influx and increasing the stress in the debates is absolutely stupid. Point blank.

If it was one or the other, I could happily condone bringing in more people, because I agree with you about how CA works, but it isn't. It's both, and more refugees is a direct stressor on both of these issues.

On the other hand, as per AN, while it increases the problematicness of debate due to more dudes to argue against, it also makes our argument stronger due to both talking the talk and walking the walk, so I'd assume it sort of evens out at worst (although we are not sure of exact proportions I imagine).

As for non-debate side and societal pressure....our societal pressure seems to mostly come from difficulty managing so many people from so much land, so I guess you do have a point about their non-Stability-shown impact. It might be counterbalanced by the very same action reinforcing tolerance making disagreements and strife less likely, but I am not sure either way. Guess I am ceding this one - that it probably will increase administrative load to some degree.
I still think that it's a worthy tradeoff due to other stuff, but yeah, it is most likely a thing.
 
@veekie You wanted to take territory from the HK, to take them out of the war, until it became clear that there may be more Cent/admin woes than we realised. Well, Econ drain is an alternative path to crippling them. If we could launch a -3 strike, we'd likely push them close to bankruptcy. Even -1 still has to hurt; +4 Econ for us, with our higher population, is known to represent something different (probably a larger figure) for them.
I already laid that out. This is spread across 4 polities. It won't do any damage unless we're draining at least a -3 strike. We'd need a -4 strike to actually cripple them.
On the other hand, as per AN, while it increases the problematicness of debate due to more dudes to argue against, it also makes our argument stronger due to both talking the talk and walking the walk, so I'd assume it sort of evens out at worst (although we are not sure of exact proportions I imagine).
...AN said that it'd make the debate more difficult however, as you add even MORE foreign voices. That's not how you come out on top of such debates here, and higher Stability does help, in that people generally think that the Ymaryn way of life is perfectly fine, so why change it for uncertain foreign values?
 
How to deal with foreign gods?
[X] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)

How to deal with the lowlanders? (Pick as many as you like)
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Crack down on their priests (-1 Stability, potential war with vassal, potential +1 Religious authority)
[] [Low] Restrict right to wage war to defensive only (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[X] [Low] Permit their use of iron tools (Allows iron tools to be traded to vassal)
[X] [Low] Send over assistance (Transfer 1 Econ + 1 Martial)

War Goals for Highlanders
[X] [High] Extra tribute (+2 Prestige, +2 Wealth, probably completes this turn)

Deploy the Red Banner
[] [RB] Remain at rest
[] [RB] Deploy north to guard against nomads
[] [RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Valleyhome
[] [RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Hatvalley
[X] [RB] Deploy to assist vassal against the Swamp Folk

Trouble's brewing, how to prepare?
[] [React] Main Expand Econ
[X] [React] Main Build Mills
[] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
[] [React] Main Expand Forests
[] [React] Main Survey

You're having trouble with the management of cities, make Sacred Forest a Free City?
[X] [City] Yes (Transfers 2 Econ + 2 Econ expansion, nulls cost of maintenance for Sacred Forest)
[] [City] No
I rather it burst from too much Econ, but it doesn't seem likely. So, changed to burst it another way

Everyone else isn't coping with the weather well
[X] [Refugee] Just those who come of their own initiative (Potential stab loss, +2 Econ)
 
I already laid that out. This is spread across 4 polities. It won't do any damage unless we're draining at least a -3 strike. We'd need a -4 strike to actually cripple them.
OK, it's definitely not as devastatingly effective as seizing tin mines, but we're probably already fighting all those polities, so all those little drains add up.

If the shift in Econ (and resulting Martial) gives us just a 10% better chance of winning against each opponent, that adds up to a 34% chance of winning at least one battle we would otherwise lose.

(ETA The -3 strike really is tempting for the ???, but per WoAN the TS and TH and Swamp People are doing OK ATM, so it wouldn't bring them to their knees. So too risky :|)
Adhoc vote count started by ThrawnCA on Jul 8, 2017 at 7:28 AM, finished with 70317 posts and 103 votes.
 
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