We haven't assimilated/dominated them yet, so we don't know where to gold came from.

On the other hand, if we take in this group, they might actually just tell us about the gold. :)

We need to send some trade expeditions out In the Wild...and to the northern nomads to begin process of assimilation.
When, though, is the question. This turn is booked, as is the next one....okay, how about this turn after next:
[Main] Trade Mission - Northern Nomads
[2nd] Expand Snail Cultivation
[2nd] New Trails

This way, we get trails to WC and ST for more trade, trade mission to look for new contacts (and thus ideas and shinies), and expand snailing for trade. Nice synergy here IMO.

EDIT: No, Study Forest does not synergize with New Settlement. Oh well, it's a shame.
 
[X] If you behave yourselves, you may settle (Strong chance of causing strife)

Everyone was so excited to learn about how the nomads work metal, well this is our chance. If we absorb one of the nomad raider's former settlements we will be able to learn their methods and techniques.

[X][Main] New Settlement
[X] Step-Farms
[X][Secondary] Expand Pasture

Also either magic in this setting is really mind bending... or the spirit talkers have developed techniques which allow them to hypnotize themselves into altered mind states.

Whatever the case may be I would love for our own people to learn astrology while also developing our own version of the Spirit Talker's berserk state.

Maybe some sort of hypersense state of being, better hearing, smell, and sight? That sort of thing. Maybe a way to get in touch with our forest on a deeper level? Whatever the case may be after this turn I'm hoping we can work on studying the forest more while growing and preparing for the next mega project.
 
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[X] If you behave yourselves, you may settle (strong chance of causing strife)

[X][Main] Step-Farms
[X][Secondary] Establish Annual Festival
[X][Secondary] New Settlement
 
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Somewhat, although ultimately a large number of those labourers have been tied up in maintaining the forests, so don't expect it to go up without further work.
Thanks. I may as well ask a second question even if it may cause some saltiness, just what would New Settlement have done with regards to the Forest Blight project?

Secondly wouldn't we have more excess black soil as well, improving our economy as the amount of it that was being consumed to rebuild the forest should be considerably more than what it takes to maintain it in it's current state. Particularly given Terra Preta's nature.
 
[X][Main] Expand Forests
[X][Secondary] New Settlement
[X][Secondary] Study Forests
By increasing centralized animal availability, you don't even need to use a single huge millstone, but you could make a dozen, and have horses tied to them to churn them all nonstop, which in turn means that we can go from transporting and storing grain to transporting and storing flour, through exceeding our ability to consume it. Flour kept dry also keeps for longer than grain, which basically means a transition to flour based food stores and the challenges of that. It's an economic gateway, where we can change things from "Animals used for heavy tasks" to "Animals used for all tasks".
Do you have a source for flour being easier and longer to store than grain?
Because flour seems to get bad in less than a year while I used grain that was some years old and it worked fine in beer.
 
[X] Escort them to the lowlands, where they can be safe from their relatives but are on their own after

[X][Main] Step-Farms
[X][Secondary] Expand Forests
[X][Secondary] New Settlement
 
[X] Escort them to the lowlands, where they can be safe from their relatives but are on their own after

[X][Main] Step-Farms
[X][Secondary] Expand Forests
[X][Secondary] New Settlement
 
Thanks. I may as well ask a second question even if it may cause some saltiness, just what would New Settlement have done with regards to the Forest Blight project?

Secondly wouldn't we have more excess black soil as well, improving our economy as the amount of it that was being consumed to rebuild the forest should be considerably more than what it takes to maintain it in it's current state. Particularly given Terra Preta's nature.

New Settlement was one of the actions that if done at full intensity (two Seconary actions) would have acted as an accelerator, in that part of the project involved settling people in the affected regions to tend to them. These sorts of actions will only ever be obvious in retrospect, but you might be able to guess them.

The long term effects of black soil on your economy will eventually kick in, yes.
 
[x] If you behave yourselves, you may settle (strong chance of causing strife)

[X][Main] Establish Annual Festival
[X][Secondary] Step-Farms
[X][Secondary] Expand Fishing
 
[x] If you behave yourselves, you may settle (strong chance of causing strife)

[X][Main] Establish Annual Festival
[X][Secondary] Step-Farms
[X][Secondary] Expand Fishing
 
We need to send some trade expeditions out In the Wild...and to the northern nomads to begin process of assimilation.
When, though, is the question. This turn is booked, as is the next one....okay, how about this turn after next:
[Main] Trade Mission - Northern Nomads
[2nd] Expand Snail Cultivation
[2nd] New Trails
This way, we get trails to WC and ST for more trade, trade mission to look for new contacts (and thus ideas and shinies), and expand snailing for trade. Nice synergy here IMO.

EDIT: No, Study Forest does not synergize with New Settlement. Oh well, it's a shame.
There's a high chance of any caravan we send being attacked by a group of raiders. I'd rather wait one more turn and see how the in fighting plays out.

I'm not really sure we need to expand our snail cultivation again, since there's no increase in demand that would necessitate it.

Perhaps this instead:

[Main] New Trails
[2nd] Expand fishing
[2nd] Study Forests

More dedication to trails would improve the result, expand fishing would unlock sea trading vessels, and study forests would boost our religion/art and possibly unlock new plants to cultivate. Having a more developed religion would be a great buffer to the ST, since we'll be having their influence spreading via the roads.

I'm pretty sure their cave acts as a modifier to religious/cultural domination.
 
[x] Escort them to the lowlands, where they can be safe from their relatives but are on their own after
[X][Main] Establish Annual Festival
[X][Secondary] Step-Farms
[X][Secondary] New Settlement
 
Okay, on the nomads, we basically have three potentially viable options and one obviously terrible one. Refusing them outright is likely to cause strife and will gain us a potential future enemy for no gain whatsoever. Settling them in the lowlands is certainly a possibility but I fear they'll start raiding our allies in the Confederacy, which will tank our relations with them since we provided safe passage. Then, there's the total acceptance of these people into our people, which I would be fine with under normal circumstances. However, these are not normal circumstances. No, these nomads have been raiding us for generations and while their leader might've been a kid who wasn't old enough to raid, the tribe is still guilty of commiting the crimes against our people.
Their culture as it stands does not mesh well with our own at all, which will likely cause significant problems in the future if we accept them without hesitation. That's why I think the conditional acceptance is the right choice. They need to understand that they've done wrong and atone for this, or the problem will only fester until the next generation. Thus, my vote on the tribal refugees is:
[] You must live as half-exiles until you can demonstrate proper behaviour (Strong chance of being rejected)

Next up we have the vote on our actions this turn. Remember, our Econ is currently 0, which puts us at a significant risk if some emergency or opportunity comes up. I want us to have something in the bank before we start with the various festivals, holy places and martial pursuits, no matter how tempting these might be right now. We'll be kicking ourselves next turn if something comes up but we lack the necessary Econ to take advantage or if another huge drought or natural disaster strikes. Let's avoid short-term gain and focus on building a piggy-bank for a rainy day.
Now, there are several potentially useful actions in terms of economy here. The one I like the best is the New Settlement option. In the previous turns, we've been told that the option would be Econ neutral over an entire generation, which is great. However, the description on the option has changed this turn:
New Settlement - The land is not particularly good for farming in between the valley and the sea, but there are places where a settlement could be set up, serving as a stop over point along the journey between the two settlements, especially now that the forests in between are ripe for grooming
This strongly suggests to me that the action is now a net positive Econ gain, which is amazing considering how costly building a new settlement really is. Taking it as our main action will ensure that the new settlement will grow quickly to provide for itself and our Holy Site at the waterfall. This is why my main action is:
[][Main] New Settlement

There are several strong contenders to our two secondary options. Step-farms seem particularly useful, since AN has told us that taking the option enough times will eventually result in it being automated by our civilization. This is huge, as it will provide boosts to Econ and food supply without needing our entervention. We need all the actions we can get for other things, so it'd be great to avoid actions on something like this, which is vital but also fairly simple.
[][Secondary] Step-Farms

The two previous actions will likely leave us with 2 Econ, which is acceptable. While I would really like to take the Annual Festival, I'm afraid it'd cost 1 Econ, which I really don't think we can afford at this time. This leaves us with several potential options but there's a variable this turn that might give one of the options an edge. Nomads are requesting our protection this turn but they'll need work in our society. Sending them out in the fields to farm or out on the ocean to fish would be a terrible waste of their talent and they've probably never seen a forest in their life. This leaves them with few options but we do have some work that's suited to them, which is tending the herds. I believe taking this option will increase our chances of a succesful and smooth integration which is why my last vote will be:
[][Secondary] Expand Pasture

My vote this turn is thus:
[X] You must live as half-exiles until you can demonstrate proper behaviour (Strong chance of being rejected)
[X][Main] New Settlement
[X][Secondary] Step-Farms
[X][Secondary] Expand Pasture
 
[x] If you behave yourselves, you may settle (strong chance of causing strife)

[X][Main] Establish Annual Festival
[X][Secondary] Step-Farms
[X][Secondary] New Settlement
 
So. Confirmation of something. Hallucinogens are still a possibility, but that was some low level lovecraftian shit, so I'm inclined to the idea of some limited background magic.

Also either magic in this setting is really mind bending... or the spirit talkers have developed techniques which allow them to hypnotize themselves altered mind states.

The update really reads like hypnotism and illusion to me.

Our people probably aren't familiar with the echoes of deep caves. In the right position, resonance can make a some sounds tremendously loud (we were asked to stand in a certain region). Lots of optical illusions could create the sense of extra deep darkness. Everything else seems consistent with adrenalin and an awe-inspiring situation. Repetitive sounds, powerlessness, sudden appearance of people near to you all add to that.

Other things also give this flavor. For example, the crystals are something that would be remarkable to someone who hadn't seem them before, but we understand there isn't anything mystical going on.

If anything, this update has decreased the likelihood I give to there being magic.
 
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@Academia Nut, is this vote acceptable?

[] You must live as half-exiles until you can demonstrate proper behaviour, if you're not prepared to do this we will escort you to the lowlands, where you can be safe from your relatives but are on your own after
 
If anything, this update has decreased the likelihood I give to there being magic.
Yep. Honestly, I WAS willing to give some credence to genuine supernatural stuff prior to actually meeting the Spirit Talkers.

Given the elaborate setup with the cave and the smoke they had our diplomats undergo, the lack of actual inexplicable phenomena, and the obvious induction of an ecstatic state with the warriors... Well. I'm sure some would call it magic. But I'm less worried about it.

[X] If you behave yourselves, you may settle (strong chance of causing strife)

[X][Main] Establish Annual Festival
[X][Secondary] Step-Farms
[X][Secondary] Expand Fishing

Fishing is a cheap economy build-up, and it acts as a buffer for bad weather in terms of harvests. Remember the prior drought? We should make sure to keep up with the fishing and nautical expansions, it'll pay off in a lot of ways.
 
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Versharl makes some good points so.

[X] You must live as half-exiles until you can demonstrate proper behaviour (Strong chance of being rejected)
[X][Main] New Settlement
[X][Secondary] Step-Farms
[X][Secondary] Expand Pasture
 
Okay, on the nomads, we basically have three potentially viable options and one obviously terrible one. Refusing them outright is likely to cause strife and will gain us a potential future enemy for no gain whatsoever. Settling them in the lowlands is certainly a possibility but I fear they'll start raiding our allies in the Confederacy, which will tank our relations with them since we provided safe passage. Then, there's the total acceptance of these people into our people, which I would be fine with under normal circumstances. However, these are not normal circumstances. No, these nomads have been raiding us for generations and while their leader might've been a kid who wasn't old enough to raid, the tribe is still guilty of commiting the crimes against our people.
Their culture as it stands does not mesh well with our own at all, which will likely cause significant problems in the future if we accept them without hesitation. That's why I think the conditional acceptance is the right choice. They need to understand that they've done wrong and atone for this, or the problem will only fester until the next generation. Thus, my vote on the tribal refugees is:
[] You must live as half-exiles until you can demonstrate proper behaviour (Strong chance of being rejected)

Next up we have the vote on our actions this turn. Remember, our Econ is currently 0, which puts us at a significant risk if some emergency or opportunity comes up. I want us to have something in the bank before we start with the various festivals, holy places and martial pursuits, no matter how tempting these might be right now. We'll be kicking ourselves next turn if something comes up but we lack the necessary Econ to take advantage or if another huge drought or natural disaster strikes. Let's avoid short-term gain and focus on building a piggy-bank for a rainy day.
Now, there are several potentially useful actions in terms of economy here. The one I like the best is the New Settlement option. In the previous turns, we've been told that the option would be Econ neutral over an entire generation, which is great. However, the description on the option has changed this turn:

This strongly suggests to me that the action is now a net positive Econ gain, which is amazing considering how costly building a new settlement really is. Taking it as our main action will ensure that the new settlement will grow quickly to provide for itself and our Holy Site at the waterfall. This is why my main action is:
[][Main] New Settlement

There are several strong contenders to our two secondary options. Step-farms seem particularly useful, since AN has told us that taking the option enough times will eventually result in it being automated by our civilization. This is huge, as it will provide boosts to Econ and food supply without needing our entervention. We need all the actions we can get for other things, so it'd be great to avoid actions on something like this, which is vital but also fairly simple.
[][Secondary] Step-Farms

The two previous actions will likely leave us with 2 Econ, which is acceptable. While I would really like to take the Annual Festival, I'm afraid it'd cost 1 Econ, which I really don't think we can afford at this time. This leaves us with several potential options but there's a variable this turn that might give one of the options an edge. Nomads are requesting our protection this turn but they'll need work in our society. Sending them out in the fields to farm or out on the ocean to fish would be a terrible waste of their talent and they've probably never seen a forest in their life. This leaves them with few options but we do have some work that's suited to them, which is tending the herds. I believe taking this option will increase our chances of a succesful and smooth integration which is why my last vote will be:
[][Secondary] Expand Pasture

My vote this turn is thus:
[X] You must live as half-exiles until you can demonstrate proper behaviour (Strong chance of being rejected)
[X][Main] New Settlement
[X][Secondary] Step-Farms
[X][Secondary] Expand Pasture
He was offering fealty to the High Chief in exchange for protection, which practically meant that he and his people would have to be resettled somewhere. There was probably enough land that could be safely turned over to pasture that it could be done...
Going by the wording, welcoming them would have us automatically expand our pastures to accommodate their animals

Do you have a plan for them rejecting the offer if we choose to make them half-exiles?
 
[X] You must live as half-exiles until you can demonstrate proper behaviour (Strong chance of being rejected)

[X][Main] Establish Annual Festival
[X][Secondary] Step-Farms
[X][Secondary] New Settlement
 
[X] You must live as half-exiles until you can demonstrate proper behaviour (Strong chance of being rejected)
[X][Main] New Settlement
[X][Secondary] Step-Farms
[X][Secondary] Expand Pasture
 
[x] If you behave yourselves, you may settle (strong chance of causing strife)

[X][Main] Establish Annual Festival
[X][Secondary] Step-Farms
[X][Secondary] Expand Fishing
 
I'm off, so here you go so you know who to argue with.
Vote Tally : Paths of Civilization | Page 267 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.7.10.1
[19] If you behave yourselves, you may settle (strong chance of causing strife)
[6] You must live as half-exiles until you can demonstrate proper behaviour (Strong chance of being rejected)
[5] Escort them to the lowlands, where they can be safe from their relatives but are on their own after
[1] If you behave yourselves, you may settle

——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Main
[25][Main] Establish Annual Festival
[5][Main] Step-Farms
[3][Main] New Settlement
[1][Main] Expand Forests

——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Secondary
[25][Secondary] Step-Farms
[18][Secondary] New Settlement
[12][Secondary] Expand Fishing
[5][Secondary] Expand Pasture
[4][Secondary] Expand Forests
[2][Secondary] Study Forests
[1][Secondary] Expand Snail Cultivation
[1][Secondary] Establish Annual Festival
Total No. of Voters: 34
 
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