Or expanding our land-based trade network. If we want to get new plants from the Not!America, that would require drastic advancement in ship technology. Otherwise, we would just expand our trade network so we keep finding more plants to cultivate.
Ships just offer significantly better transport, even with their dangers, so trading up and down the coast with them would be huge.

I think most of us agree with Step-Farms, Pastures, and Fishing in the next two turns, along with Festival and settlement this following turn, it's just a matter of order of value for each of us.
 
While I would argue that cattle are probably a good reliable source of protein I feel that I should point out that pastures are also the source of four other things; horses, milk, dairy made products (such as cheese), and leather.

We need horses for animal labor and war, cow milk is a good nutriational suppliment, cheese (which we don't have now but I hope we do later) is awesome, and leather is probably the best form of armor we are going to have available for a long time. Plus, even when we do start making armor out of metal we will still need leather as a base to attach said metal to.

So pastures are pretty important as a source of animal power, food, nutrition, and even military might. It would be a bad idea to neglect them.
Why is cheese awesome (other than in regards to the taste of bleu cheese)? I haven't denied that pastures are otherwise useful, but most of their benefits can be worked around - e.g., rather than attaching metal to leather we can attach it to hemp strands/rope. Or we could just not need armor by making our sole tactic 1) Build walls 2) Build Forest 3) Make Bows From Forest 4) Stand on walls with bow 5) Fire.
 
If we pick Step-Farms at the same time as we establish the New Settlement it will gain Step Farms when it's built rather than gaining them later - which seems like better synergy to me.
We're one Step Farm action away from doing them automatically anyway, so that's accounted for in "Step Farms now propagate automatically with farms", so that particular element is mostly neutral. It still needs to be done because we've learned how painful a megaproject can get, so stacking up the advantages before we start up the canal is wise, but overall it doesn't cost any action no matter if it's done now or later.

I'm uncertain if Pastures will actually impact the Milling technology - I'm of the opinion that we already have enough animals harvesting them, and more animals are less likely to upgrade it than a new discovery of how we can better utilize them would. I mean, MAYBE if we have an excess of cattle assigned to a mill the miller would go "Ah, what if we expand the number of places a cattle can be stationed! That would let us use a heavier stone and thus grind even more!" But idk how likely that is - especially if we're spreading cattle to a new village at the same time.
Actually, the Milling technology's next step is exploding in use. Currently, work animals are a limited resource, most of them are dedicated to bulk hauling, which means driving up the costs of Milling.

By increasing centralized animal availability, you don't even need to use a single huge millstone, but you could make a dozen, and have horses tied to them to churn them all nonstop, which in turn means that we can go from transporting and storing grain to transporting and storing flour, through exceeding our ability to consume it. Flour kept dry also keeps for longer than grain, which basically means a transition to flour based food stores and the challenges of that. It's an economic gateway, where we can change things from "Animals used for heavy tasks" to "Animals used for all tasks".
Fishing... well, I can't deny that it would be useful in a rather general way. I just feel that it wouldn't provide a great deal of synergy with the establishment of a new settlement, though arguably the increased number of shells would synergize with the Festival's art.
Maximum synergy isn't always the most effective course of action, and well...we're not too far off from a breakthrough in boat construction, now that we have reached a Fuckton of wood.
 
Ships just offer significantly better transport, even with their dangers, so trading up and down the coast with them would be huge.

I think most of us agree with Step-Farms, Pastures, and Fishing in the next two turns, along with Festival and settlement this following turn, it's just a matter of order of value for each of us.

Guess is that Settlement is neutral, and Festival is going to cost us, and one econ action is only to give us one economy point.

So, I am not sure if we could do both Settlement and Festival.
 
Cheese is awesome because it lasts a long time, is easy to travel with, goes well with a bunch of other foods, and has protein and goodness due to being made of milk.
 
Go to south america, and bring together corn and manihot.
So you want to go to South America and find inedible grains and roots? You do realise the modern day potato and corn went through extreme selective breeding to become the modern day version? We'd be better off creating our own variety of crops. Not only would they be better suited for our enviroment they will also be easier for The People to consume.
 
Go to south america, and bring together corn and manihot.

Potatoes are way less exhausting for the soil than corn. And generally are cheap, pretty high-yield, high nutritious value vegetable.
But yeah, our agricultural powers will only grow with more plants to cultivate.

Ships just offer significantly better transport, even with their dangers, so trading up and down the coast with them would be huge.

I think most of us agree with Step-Farms, Pastures, and Fishing in the next two turns, along with Festival and settlement this following turn, it's just a matter of order of value for each of us.

Kinda yes, with a caveat: if the war continues, we'll need to instead do Festival+Settlement+War Action. Or something similar.
 
We're one Step Farm action away from doing them automatically anyway, so that's accounted for in "Step Farms now propagate automatically with farms", so that particular element is mostly neutral.
I don't understand how it's a neutral element. If we're one step away from Step Farms propagating automatically, that still means that they do not propagate automatically.
It's true that choosing Step-Farms later would still establish them @ the New Settlement, but something to consider is that the New Settlement will be based in rough, broken land that is unsuitable for normal farming. Doing Step Farms now rather than later will speed up the growth and development of the town, allowing it to be economically productive quicker.

By increasing centralized animal availability, you don't even need to use a single huge millstone, but you could make a dozen, and have horses tied to them to churn them all nonstop, which in turn means that we can go from transporting and storing grain to transporting and storing flour, through exceeding our ability to consume it. Flour kept dry also keeps for longer than grain, which basically means a transition to flour based food stores and the challenges of that. It's an economic gateway, where we can change things from "Animals used for heavy tasks" to "Animals used for all tasks".
Tbh I don't know what tasks animals can be used for that we do already use them for, other than plowing, because we lack plows. They're used as beasts of burden and as animal power to turn things. I'd argue that the economic gateway is partly to the increased reliance on flour, but more to the development of plows - though admittedly that's a dangerous path to go down if we plough too deeply.

Maximum synergy isn't always the most effective course of action, and well...we're not too far off from a breakthrough in boat construction, now that we have reached a Fuckton of wood.

Maximum synergy is always the most effective course of action. If we repeatedly pursue deformed economic models, we will become either rounded or an arrow pointing toward the future.

Cheese is awesome because it lasts a long time, is easy to travel with, goes well with a bunch of other foods, and has protein and goodness due to being made of milk.
You could say the same for dried fish.
 
I am confused why do people say the nomads were the inventors of the war carts?

When Gwygotha made them.

Second, she (Gwygotha) ordered the construction of more of the war wagons she had dreamed up, mostly because she (Gwygotha) enjoyed them but they had a tendency to break, and because the northern nomads had begun to adopt the idea they had seen used against them. At some point however it was realized by both groups that neither one could actually do lasting damage to the other and they were basically just using the conflict to train their young men, and since the nomads were mostly ignoring the villages for retaliation attacks - they were still going after them for the raids they usually did - it was decided that the whole thing had gone beyond the point of reason and it was best to simply walk away and let the hotheads among the nomads cool off.
 
Why is cheese awesome (other than in regards to the taste of bleu cheese)? I haven't denied that pastures are otherwise useful, but most of their benefits can be worked around - e.g., rather than attaching metal to leather we can attach it to hemp strands/rope. Or we could just not need armor by making our sole tactic 1) Build walls 2) Build Forest 3) Make Bows From Forest 4) Stand on walls with bow 5) Fire.
Okay, milk primer: Milk doesn't last long. You can transport it less than a day sans refrigeration without the damned thing going bad, it's TOO easy to digest, so basically if you want milk, you'd best live within walking distance of an udder. However, for all that, if you live near it Milk is cheap as a source of steady reliable protein, mostly since it doesn't need to kill the animal to produce, as long as the animal being milked has grazing to eat..
Cheese means you can turn milk into a type of food that can be stored for a long time, which means it can be stockpiled and traded. Hard dry cheeses can be stored for months or even years in a reasonably cool storehouse(i.e. granary), and softer cheeses provide readily available protein to the immediate area.

There's a reason the stereotypical traveling food is a block of waxed cheese and hard bread. Together, they provide for your protein and carbohydrate needs.
 
Kinda yes, with a caveat: if the war continues, we'll need to instead do Festival+Settlement+War Action. Or something similar.
If the war continues, I think we'd be doing Festival + Economy Action + War action, since War and Festival both cost economy, while Settlement is neutral. You'd need a profit source to at least break even. More optimally, it'd be Settlement + Economy Action + War Action, but the Festivalites will riot.

I don't understand how it's a neutral element. If we're one step away from Step Farms propagating automatically, that still means that they do not propagate automatically.
It's true that choosing Step-Farms later would still establish them @ the New Settlement, but something to consider is that the New Settlement will be based in rough, broken land that is unsuitable for normal farming. Doing Step Farms now rather than later will speed up the growth and development of the town, allowing it to be economically productive quicker.
That would be true prior to the Sacred Forest megaproject granting us an alternative source for settlement growth. Currently it would be nice but not necessary.
Tbh I don't know what tasks animals can be used for that we do already use them for, other than plowing, because we lack plows. They're used as beasts of burden and as animal power to turn things. I'd argue that the economic gateway is partly to the increased reliance on flour, but more to the development of plows - though admittedly that's a dangerous path to go down if we plough too deeply.
One reason for not having plows yet is the lack of animal power to do it with. Basically, people won't go looking for new ways to put their animals to work when they don't have many animals and all those animals are already busy working. Currently our animals are used to haul wagonloads of everything, which range from food, to rubbish, to Black Soil to saplings, rocks and mud for terraforming projects.

An excess of animals just standing around probably starts making people wonder why the animals don't have something to do though.

Maximum synergy is always the most effective course of action. If we repeatedly pursue deformed economic models, we will become either rounded or an arrow pointing toward the future.
I would point you to the following factions pursuing a route of maximum synergy:
-Original lowlanders. Pioneer Spirit + Slavery combo to rack up the stability loss and grow rapidly by splintering. Shattered like glass due to pursuit of a short term optimal action.
-Spirit Talkers. Pure religious tribute -> military power model of social control, with imported food for everything using their economic power...led to the discovery that if you trade for food, you will starve even if you are rich when nobody has food to trade to you.
-Us. Settlement was never synergizing with anything at any time, so no settlements were ever built.

Maximum short term synergy needs to factor in the long term viability.
You could say the same for dried fish.
Fish was produced in a single corner of our polity, risky to harvest and then transport. Cheese can be manufactured in any of our settlements locally with pastures. That's the economic and nutritional difference towards putting a lot more protein into the diet. Cows are basically Grass to Protein convertors with that.

...This is basically going to be what our missionaries say, isn't it?
Oh and:
While obviously perturbed, the foreign chief nodded after a moment and then began to talk. It was awkward and pantomiming, but he obviously had some experience with this as his point started to get across. Well, mostly, since Nishiphur soon grew confused. He got the idea that this chief considered this land theirs, and that they considered Nishiphur's clan intruders, but... Nishiphur was sure that he had to be confused. These people wanted to teach his people how to farm? That didn't make a grain of sense!
We have a lot of practice at teaching people how to farm our way even if they don't understand us at all.
"These people are crazy," Nishiphur's son Narrabur noted with a mixture of genuine confusion and contempt and gratitude. Nishiphur had to mildly agree, in that they just sort of showed up with food and supplies and experts and said, 'Here, this is how you build a village. Would you like to trade grain for dyes? How about marrying our daughters?'
We also put up construction project, bargains for shinies and waifus on the market.
As such it only takes the majority of a season to get from the valley to the core of the Confederacy, where the experts are welcomed warmly if with a bit of confusion. The lowlanders don't quite get why aid like this is being sent, or why they're being sent farmers of all people, but after a few demonstrations of the land management techniques they start to appreciate it.
And everyone gets Strong Opinions About Agriculture
 
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Honestly?

I agree with festival and settlement and step farms for next turn. Get the step farms done so it's an automatic, then I think we should look at fishing. We need the boats, for trade if nothing else. You guys all want to diversify crops, but we need cheap trade to do it. And while overland trade routes are easy, they're rediculously risky.

As a seaside agricultural society, sea-trade should be a focus. That's how you become a major power in the ancient world.

Of course this all depends on the war.

Also. Olive trees. *Mic drop*

Ok picking it back up. But olives are one of the single most useful crops. Oil, fantastic wood, protein.
 
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Why is cheese awesome (other than in regards to the taste of bleu cheese)? I haven't denied that pastures are otherwise useful, but most of their benefits can be worked around - e.g., rather than attaching metal to leather we can attach it to hemp strands/rope. Or we could just not need armor by making our sole tactic 1) Build walls 2) Build Forest 3) Make Bows From Forest 4) Stand on walls with bow 5) Fire.
Well the benefits of cheese were already said so I won't repeat it.

When I say that leather is used as a way to attach metal though, I mean people make jackets of leather to which the metal parts are attached to.

The leather serves as under armor. You can't use hemp/rope because it's too easy to cut through and doesn't function as well as properly created leather does.
 
If the war continues, I think we'd be doing Festival + Economy Action + War action, since War and Festival both cost economy, while Settlement is neutral. You'd need a profit source to at least break even. More optimally, it'd be Settlement + Economy Action + War Action, but the Festivalites will riot.

Am Festivalite, can confirm: will riot.
That would be true prior to the Sacred Forest megaproject granting us an alternative source for settlement growth. Currently it would be nice but not necessary.

How do you mean? We still need settlements to grow population 'cap', which is definitely there, even if not explicitly defined.


As a seaside agricultural society, sea-trade should be a focus. That's how you become a major power in the ancient world.

I wanted to argue with Rome as example, but their defeat of Carthage in 1st Punic did establish them as the strongest maritime faction, so...you are right, more or less. With caveats and such, but still.
 
And everyone gets Strong Opinions About Agriculture

Yeah our people have realized that in order to maintain a healthy ecosystem we need to ensure that not just our land but the land of others are well managed. And have really internalized the fact that generosity is one of the key virtues that we need to remain in the good graces of the spirits.
 
That would be true prior to the Sacred Forest megaproject granting us an alternative source for settlement growth. Currently it would be nice but not necessary.
It's an alternate source for settlement growth, but not really for that settlement in particular, unless you want them to become a weird sort of ranger settlement? That might work, actually, considering that the settlement will contain elders. It would turn it into a weird bard place.
It would still limit its food production for a while, arguably. But then again, the excess from other villages gets fed to it.
-Us. Settlement was never synergizing with anything at any time, so no settlements were ever built.
Us: Super wonderful infrastructure, building tall, difficult to defeat and internally stable. Only major problem is that we don't spread quick so that a wider puddle can defeat our deeper pool.
Cows are basically Grass to Protein convertors with that.
That's a good metaphor.
&
*shrug* That was literally me being snarky. I don't really have an opinion toward cows & cheese other than not wanting to become Texas 2.0.

The leather serves as under armor.
The rope serves as under armor, or more likely an under-harness. It serves as well as properly created leather does if it's properly created.

You were talking about a cuirass then - when you attach small metal plates to an overall leather garment? Okay. I was thinking more of wider metal plates held together by semi-thick strands of rope - vaguely like samurai armor, though I think they might have used leather. Chainmail would work as well but be vastly more difficult to develop, of course.

And again, instead of armoring we can just shoot them from atop our walls and/or trees.
 
Potatoes are way less exhausting for the soil than corn. And generally are cheap, pretty high-yield, high nutritious value vegetable.
But yeah, our agricultural powers will only grow with more plants to cultivate.

Do you know the triple crop technique? Beans, Squash and Corn, all of american continent, winch permited year round crops because the beans would restore the soil, and climb corn, them offering better soil to squash? and Squash would protect the soil from rain and sunlight, avoiding ressecation?


So you want to go to South America and find inedible grains and roots? You do realise the modern day potato and corn went through extreme selective breeding to become the modern day version? We'd be better off creating our own variety of crops. Not only would they be better suited for our enviroment they will also be easier for The People to consume.

And manihot is not enedible, you only need to cook the roots of it, and before someone says it's less nutritional, don't forget that adding the leaves of the plant together with the roots makes a perfect balanced diet? go read before shaming yourself.
 
Olive trees do grow veeeery slowly though.
Once they're grown, they produce for hundreds of years, and they can be trimmed for wood. It's still one of the most sought after materials for wood carving, and the oil itself is one of the most useful materials for the period. It's a big part of the reason Rome and Greece rose to such primacy.
 
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Once they're grown, they produce for hundreds of years, and they can be trimmed for wood. It's still one of the most sought after materials for wood carving, and the oil itself is one of the most useful materials for the period. It's a big part of the reason Rome rose to such primacy.
And greece, and Carthage. All of them traded oil. (Carthage supposedly had higher quality oil, tho. It switched to making it when Rome moved in on the grain market, IIRC.)

Do you know the triple crop technique? Beans, Squash and Corn, all of american continent, winch permited year round crops because the beans would restore the soil, and climb corn, them offering better soil to squash? and Squash would protect the soil from rain and sunlight, avoiding dessecation?

And manihot is not enedible, you only need to cook the roots of it, and before someone says it's less nutritional, don't forget that adding the leaves of the plant together with the roots makes a perfect balanced diet? go read before shaming yourself.
Did y'all grow the three sisters in a school garden like we did? We did those and then planted onions and marigolds around them for pest control.
 
Can we just take a moment to appreciate how the majority vote did a 180 over time? The original bandwagon was Martial, Festival, Wagons, Wilds. And then eventually it changed to Social, New Site, Walls, Spirit Talker. The power of frantic debates!
 
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