But we have cultural divergence in the ST, the WW, and even in our core provinces. Integration of the ST is a very low priority compared to expanding trails and building temples.

I'd rather propagate the STs for now to lessen their cultural influence, integrate what we can of the WW, establish the Heaven's Hawk as a March, increase our admin tech, and then do the whole integrate before propagating thing.
 
My basic priorities:
1) Finish the Sacred Forest Megaproject
2) Golden Age (Likely to be simultaneous or a single turn after the above given Balanced)
3) Get more actions: more Periphery states, then more provinces (include March propogation)
5) New Trails
6) Megaprojects (Palace -> Census -> Dam)
 
Do we all kinda agree on that much at least? Trails first, then see where it leaves us?
Trails second. Palace comes first. We're not at crisis point yet. Not helping out would've started the rumblings, but since we're helping out we're not only avoiding the beginning of a secession movement but delaying it.
 
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I'd say that it reminds me of EU4 with the Meiou and Taxes 2.0 mod.
 
Trails second. Palace comes first. We're not at crisis point yet. Not helping out would've started the rumblings, but since we're helping out we're not only avoiding the beginning of a secession movement but delaying it.
Right, right, whoops. :V

Wasn't clear on my context here. What I meant was, "when we start working on the North problem", do trails first. Fixing the north problem I took to be started after the crisis and the Palace.
 
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That does however, mean missing out on the opportunity to expand...

The issue is that every time we expand without making corresponding new trails, our communications issues get worse. Thus, it may be that we need to at least try for a double main new trails before we make the new provinces. If we're lucky this will lead to some advancements which will overall improve our roads, allowing us to expand without as many problems.
 
That does however, mean missing out on the opportunity to expand...
Not really.

The general path as I understand it is that we finish this Upgrade our Mega project in two turns or so, possibly three, and the crisis is still going for everyone else. (We've only had 2 turns I think out of 4 to 12)

Then we work on the Palace, quickly but not rushing, using megasupport policy. Try to finish it in two turns or so. If we do that the crisis will probably be in 5/4-12 at worst.
Outside of the Crisis taking up our neighbors attentions, there is also recovery time which I expect to take 3 to 4 turns.

What this all means is that our neighbors are still going to be recovering once we finish the Palace and we can expand into where we wish.


The issue is that every time we expand without making corresponding new trails, our communications issues get worse. Thus, it may be that we need to at least try for a double main new trails before we make the new provinces. If we're lucky this will lead to some advancements which will overall improve our roads, allowing us to expand without as many problems.
Ahh this too. The Palace will offset some of this. but yes when we start expanding in the window after the Palace is finished we do need to make more trails.
 
The point you guys seem to fail to understand is that we have three things we want to to do right after Forest Renewal Megaproject. Yes, the Palace needs to be done soonest and no one has propositioned to replace that with another action. The choice however becomes of whether we focus on integration and trails, or expansion and trails. The Stallion Tribe problem is urgent, but the Lowland Expansion opportunities are time limited. With the provinces (or us) stuck on Megaproject duty, it means we only have the opportunity of one.

I understand they are both important and this is not an argument for going one way or the other. Just a reminder that there were other plans earlier and expand the awareness that focusing on the Stallion Tribe will lose the opportunity to expand as well as visa versa.
 
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In all honesty while I am loathe to turn down lowlands expansion we are already eating up plenty of territory. We really need to integrate the Stallions soon and we're overdue for New Trails.

The Palace and Census are next on the megaprojects menu, but even we can't afford to go from megaproject to megaproject without doing centennial 'maintenance' work to keep together. The megaprojects will offer benefits, definitely, but they will also take a lot of time- and as we've said, our window to seize territory will close.
 
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The point you guys seem to fail to understand is that we have three things we want to to do right after Forest Renewal Megaproject. Yes, the Palace needs to be done soonest and no one has propositioned to replace that with another action. The choice however becomes of whether we focus on integration and trails, or expansion and trails. The Stallion Tribe problem is urgent, but the Lowland Expansion opportunities are time limited. With the provinces (or us) stuck on Megaproject duty, it means we only have the opportunity of one.

I understand they are both important and this is not an argument for going one way or the other. Just a reminder that there were other plans earlier and expand the awareness that focusing on the Stallion Tribe will lose the opportunity to expand as well as visa versa.
I think we should go with integration. Expansion means adding a problem (lowlands incursion) on top of another problem (lack of integration), leaving us with two long-term problems. Integration, on the other hand fixes a long-term problem we have and adds no more, leaving us with zero long-term problems.

That said, I think we might be able to do both, but integration should at least come first.
 
Fortunately, we've bought some breathing room this turn since we supported the north with our war action. I think that either propagating the march or building a temple would buy us a few more turns. At that point, we can either have a palace or better trails, and that should provide us a decent buffer for our expansion into the lowlands.
 
Not really.

The general path as I understand it is that we finish this Upgrade our Mega project in two turns or so, possibly three, and the crisis is still going for everyone else. (We've only had 2 turns I think out of 4 to 12)

Then we work on the Palace, quickly but not rushing, using megasupport policy. Try to finish it in two turns or so. If we do that the crisis will probably be in 5/4-12 at worst.
Outside of the Crisis taking up our neighbors attentions, there is also recovery time which I expect to take 3 to 4 turns.

What this all means is that our neighbors are still going to be recovering once we finish the Palace and we can expand into where we wish.
Sigh.

No, that is not the plan. Or to be more precise, if that is anyone's plan, they're likely in for a rude awakening the turn after we finish the current megaproject and they look at our current Art score.

Currently our megaproject can take anywhere from 3-7 more actions, with the average being 5. This means 3 more turns (including this one), is the likely scenario unless we get slightly lucky (possible), or something amazing happens. We also have a slight problem of our current art. At best, we're left with 3 additional art, unless this pays off with art when done. Considering megaproject policy requires us to take a single main action to direct said project, we'd instantly take up the rest of our art. What we should do is either go onto expansion policy to regain econ and econ slots, along with getting more forests or balance policy (because people are cripplingly paranoid of taking any other policy at this point it seems), and either use our double mains to build up the palace or to spend a turn increasing Art before we start it. A [Main] Art Patronage is very beneficial if we can afford it.

And as has pointed out, connectivity isn't the problem. Yes, there are some issues with connectivity, but our northern provinces are likely only considering it because of our low Diplomacy score. In story terms they are able to realize that they can completely stand on their own is the reason for possible, eventual succession. The problem here is our diplomacy score and not giving the northern provinces enough love and actions in general, integrating them does not fundamentally change this.
I think we should go with integration. Expansion means adding a problem (lowlands incursion) on top of another problem (lack of integration), leaving us with two long-term problems. Integration, on the other hand fixes a long-term problem we have and adds no more, leaving us with zero long-term problems.

That said, I think we might be able to do both, but integration should at least come first.
Integration is more expensive, it costs Diplomacy, where as expansion is solved much more easily by simply getting on the expansion policy while we personally build the palace.

We could also do the expansion policy now, while we're building the megaproject, which would give us the most needed resource we have currently, econ, which is the only one that the megaproject isn't effectively paid for and we suffer damage to every turn.
 
I think with our mercenaries and martial bonuses we can definitely afford to integrate Stallion Tribes rather than propagating. The narrative for propagation seems to be that the Stallion Tribe leaders would simply relocate to new territory- that's decidedly likely to cause further ill feeling, as opposed to integration which turns those leaders into more typical village leaders.

It costs Diplomacy, yes, but it actually addresses the problem rather than moving it. AN actually explained to solve issue we need to integrate and wait a few generations before grabbing another march north of Stallion Tribes- having a nearby frontier gives the discontented a place to rally. Propagation was listed as an option but not as one that will resolve the political divide.
 
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not rushing, using megasupport policy.
These are two fundamentally incompatible choices unless you want to be running with dangerously low stats. You will get 3 Megaproject actions per turn from the provinces- that means 4 actions on the first turn, and finish in 2-3 turns.

My plan is simple: Get a Golden Age (nearly guaranteed 1 turn after finishing the megaproject), then ride those advancements and get more periphery states and provinces. Use the centralization opened from the provinces to do a double-main New Trails.

Then we can start doing megaprojects via double-mains while leaving the provinces on Balanced to provide resources to sustain both the megaprojects and the golden age.
 
These are two fundamentally incompatible choices unless you want to be running with dangerously low stats. You will get 3 Megaproject actions per turn from the provinces- that means 4 actions on the first turn, and finish in 2-3 turns.

My plan is simple: Get a Golden Age (nearly guaranteed 1 turn after finishing the megaproject), then ride those advancements and get more periphery states and provinces. Use the centralization opened from the provinces to do a double-main New Trails.

Then we can start doing megaprojects via double-mains while leaving the provinces on Balanced to provide resources to sustain both the megaprojects and the golden age.
Okay, I really have to ask, because I don't see how this will happen. What two stats do you plan to overflow for the golden age?

I can see a chance of overflowing mysticism, but that's it.
 
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Wealth and Mysticism Perhaps? We have those on the uptick. If the Renewal project is immunity, then we can start overflowing both.
 
Trails second. Palace comes first. We're not at crisis point yet. Not helping out would've started the rumblings, but since we're helping out we're not only avoiding the beginning of a secession movement but delaying it.
I disagree. I think taking a few turns to work on Trails or libraries or temples Or just raising our stats again from the bottom of the barrel where they will be at after the mega project is done would be more useful then diving right into another Mega project. We'd have to spend what five turns on before we saw any dividends?
 
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Currently our megaproject can take anywhere from 3-7 more actions, with the average being 5. This means 3 more turns (including this one), is the likely scenario unless we get slightly lucky (possible), or something amazing happens. We also have a slight problem of our current art. At best, we're left with 3 additional art, unless this pays off with art when done. Considering megaproject policy requires us to take a single main action to direct said project, we'd instantly take up the rest of our art. What we should do is either go onto expansion policy to regain econ and econ slots, along with getting more forests or balance policy (because people are cripplingly paranoid of taking any other policy at this point it seems), and either use our double mains to build up the palace or to spend a turn increasing Art before we start it. A [Main] Art Patronage is very beneficial if we can afford it.

Actually, depending on our econ at the midturn, we could swap over to megaproject support and get it done potentially next turn. At that point we could main Art Patronage + Palace, going straight into the next megaproject depending on whether province actions have produced art this turn.

As to Expansion policy, the sad truth is that it won't produce more forests unless this megaproject helps it do so-there's going to be too many available settlement slots, especially with the recent mass die-offs and inflow of refugees, for expansion to pick forests or even expand econ for some time.

I disagree. I think taking a few turns to work on Trails or libraries or temples Or just raising our stats again from the bottom of the barrel where they will be at after the mega project is done would be more useful then diving right into another Mega project. We'd have to spend what five turns on before we saw any dividends?

4 without policy support. 2 with, provided we can keep our stats up.
 
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I would support any plan that has at least one main trails after we complete this megaproject, as they are something that we desperately need to get the most out of our centralization stat.
 
Computerization
Hypothetical PoC Video Game Design

So, if someone were to hire me to build a Paths of Civilization game, I would probably go with something Paradox-ish. I mean, if I had unlimited budget and access to devs I would probably bring in more of Sid Meier's Civilization elements, but for a game that would actually get made I would go with a more limited design. Within a Paradox style game I would probably do it with a real world map and start centred around the Eastern Mediterranean - the edges would probably be the north shore of the Black Sea, the Balkans, the second Nile cataract, and Bactra - and would run from say 5000 BC - 300 BC. Western Europe and India as well as a timeline extension to say 400 AD could be saved for expansion packs. The map would then be divided up into a large number of provinces, so the look would be very much like if someone decided to make the prequel game to Crusader Kings. Design would also have three distinct phases of early game, mid-game, and late game divided up into Neolithic, Bronze Age, and Iron Age.

The play style would however be very much closer to a combination of the Europa Universalis and Victoria games, only turn based, with each turn being maybe 5 to 10 years. Colonization, infrastructure development, and internal stability would be key goals, but the primary challenge would be balancing long term development with immediate survival. Over developing farmlands can lead to soil degradation and thus agricultural collapse, but you need to keep food production and granary supplies high in order to do things and keep people happy. There would also be a relatively complex resource dependency network, where again you should feel like you always need more resources just to stay ahead of the demands of the priests, bureaucrats, artisans, and warriors that keep your civilization running.

For research I would probably have something like a hybrid of Civilization and Victoria II, with a splash of Master of Orion 2. There would be a number of Main Techs in an interconnecting tree, but each Main Tech would also have a number of Secondary Techs that branch off. While everyone can develop the Main Techs, the secondaries are somewhat random in what actually opens up, weighted by environmental factors. The big thing though would be that tech develops primarily by use. Building lots of farms encourages the growth of farming tech, working with metals grows the smithing techs, and so on and so forth. Being in contact with other civilizations that have techs will also encourage the growth of those techs, dependent upon what policies you and they have. Somewhat related would be social values and policies, which would also develop over time, but new ones can open up with increasing technology, and then you have the question of retaining older but more developed systems or moving to initially less powerful values that have more room to grow.

There would be a fairly robust random and semi-random event system, with a strong emphasis on the environment being ready to kick you in the ribs at the slightest provocation, and your subordinates being total dickheads. In fact, I would put more emphasis on keeping your subordinates in order than necessarily conquering your neighbours, at least until the Iron Age. One of the big things I would emphasize is that there's not enough actions in a turn to do everything, and thus you need to delegate to the AI, which might be less competent than a human player but at least things are happening instead of everything grinding to a halt because the king doesn't have enough hours in a day.

Finally, the combat system would be fairly radically different than most of these sorts of systems. Each province would have a garrison and for the most part wars would be fought by setting garrisons on the edges of your territory to raid neighbours or explore or what have you. The direct movement of units would probably be restricted to a sort of mini-game when engaging other major kingdoms and empires proper, and/or restricted to the Iron Age.

So yeah, if I were to do this, I would start out relatively unambitious in terms of scope, limiting to a time period of the start of agriculture to the early classical period and within the Fertile Crescent. If I had more resources, including developer brain power, I would start by expanding the area a bit more and extending out the timeline to the classical period. More resources still and I would try to add in China (that or just focus on East Asia as its own standalone spinoff). Then if I could I would add in a random map maker, so that there could be more varied gameplay. Finally, if all of the above were working, then I would see about getting somewhat ridiculously ambitions and go for the full Civilization meets Paradox experience and extend out the timeline beyond the classical, hopefully all the way to the Information Age... although the shifts in gameplay along the way might make sensible to split it up into multiple games running off the same engine, each with somewhat different mechanics.
 
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