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Paths of Civilization

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So - 3 generations without march would eat the Mercenaries stationed there and possibly interrupt happy building with a "Main: Defense" action?
 
Academia Nut said:
If you think you can go without a march up north for about three generations, integrating would be better, else propagating them is far more action efficient.
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Alright so Integrating just sounds like the better option long term. We Integrate them and their culture can be subsumed into our own and all of these "ideas" that they don't need us go away, where as Propagating them just means moving the problem forward and making them even more independent. We already have the Hawks and Red Flags on call, so going without a March for three turns isn't bad. If anything because of that this is likely the best time for us to not have a March in the north.
 
MTB said:
... so, besides being the !Vikings, we'll invent/become also the !Mongols?
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I actually think we will create the Vikings.
Let's look at what we will be doing up to the North in Not!Russia/Scandinavia, we will be introducing the idea of Longboats to the tribes there who will most likely see the efficiency of them and pick them up if they can, we will likely influence their gods, it's already been joked about that Crow will probably become Not!Loki or Not!Odin to them. Most importantly we will be introducing the idea of a strong unified kingdom and a rich south. How long after they start to have regular trade with us until they discover how to make Longboats and go raiding?

We aren't the Not! Vikings, but we are going to end up creating them up north if we get regular trade there like we want
 
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Academia Nut said:
If you think you can go without a march up north for about three generations, integrating would be better, else propagating them is far more action efficient.
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I think we can definetely handle this. Red Banner and the Hawks have the power of two marches combined and there aren't even any nomad heroes right now. They can easily tank the martial slack ST would leave by integrating.
 
Academia Nut said:
Basically, if you immediately found a new march, most of the people you wanted to integrate in will go to the new march. You have to wait for them to die off and the culture to blend out first.
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Ooh, ok, that makes sense =3 I suppose my opinion on the matter will depend on how this upcoming war action goes...part of why i like the secondary war mission is that hopefully it'll mean we get more fluff about it, which should help us figure out how much the nomads are doing with horseback riding, and how close they seem to be to actual cavalry...
 
Academia Nut said:
If you think you can go without a march up north for about three generations, integrating would be better, else propagating them is far more action efficient.
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Considering Nomads drive by every couple generations...probably not something I want to count on.

Just get some double Main Trails out at last. We know they work, they are cheap, and we even generate Wealth off the process!
Note that Stonepen, Black River and Northshore are suffering drift and integrating won't really help them aside from remove a northern political focus point.
 
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We have to propagate the March to be able get the canal mega project up North. At least this way we get the richer settlements under our control so they lose much of their self reliance.
 
veekie said:
Considering Nomads drive by every couple generations...probably not something I want to count on.

Just get some double Main Trails out at last. We know they work, they are cheap, and we even generate Wealth off the process!
Note that Stonepen, Black River and Northshore are suffering drift and integrating won't really help them aside from remove a northern political focus point.
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I think it'll depend on how close the nomads are to full on horseback riding; with the secondary war mission this turn we should get more info in the update to determine that. If they're still far away from it, then "secondary war mission + war hawks + red banner +western wall" should be enough to turn back any nomads, barring another bullshit double hero horde...and honestly with such a horde, we'd likely need to provide main missions of our own anyway...

And "remove a northern political focus point" is pretty important on its own... but yeah, whether we integrate or propogate we'll end up with cent room to do more trails, which will be great...though its Diplo we get from it, not Wealth, fyi
ETA50M said:
We have to propagate the March to be able get the canal mega project up North. At least this way we get the richer settlements under our control so they lose much of their self reliance.
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No we don't? We can do either to get the canal:
Academia Nut said:
Integrating or propagating the Stallions would allow for the construction of a new canal system
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Abby Normal said:
And "remove a northern political focus point" is pretty important on its own... but yeah, whether we integrate or propogate we'll end up with cent room to do more trails, which will be great...though its Diplo we get from it, not Wealth, fyi
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Going to need more than one Cent worth of New Trails, hence we'd need to generate Wealth off Distribute Land(now that AN had finally laid the misinformation that the land's ownership changes to private) to fit it.
 
veekie said:
Going to need more than one Cent worth of New Trails, hence we'd need to generate Wealth off Distribute Land(now that AN had finally laid the misinformation that the land's ownership changes to private) to fit it.
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Ahh, ok that makes sense, though personally i'd just as soon get that cent room by making one of the three provinces available to us,since while i dont want to do so during the megaproject, i doubt we'll have the actions to either integrate/propogate ST or to do the double main trails until after its over anyway :p
 
Academia Nut said:
If you think you can go without a march up north for about three generations, integrating would be better, else propagating them is far more action efficient.
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This to me sounds like a challenge, one with excellent rewards but not something that can be done effortlessly. Still, between the Stallion Tribes' new forest, our mercenaries, the Martial we'd get from the Stallion Tribes, and the old advantage of iron, this should be perfectly doable. Hell, if the last several turns are anything to go by we may not even be attacked once! Nomad aggression could also be delayed or directed away through applications of Trade Missions and Salt Gift.

Yeah, I think we should go for the three-generation integration then propagate the March. We have enough advantages that we can survive the nomads, chances are we won't be fighting nomads for that entire time, and if we play it right - or if we just get lucky - we won't even have to fight any nomads at all.

McLuvin said:
I actually think we will create the Vikings.
Let's look at what we will be doing up to the North in Not!Russia/Scandinavia, we will be introducing the idea of Longboats to the tribes there who will most likely see the efficiency of them and pick them up if they can, we will likely influence their gods, it's already been joked about that Crow will probably become Not!Loki or Not!Odin to them. Most importantly we will be introducing the idea of a strong unified kingdom and a rich south. How long after they start to have regular trade with us until they discover how to make Longboats and go raiding?

We aren't the Not! Vikings, but we are going to end up creating them up north if we get regular trade there like we want
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AN said that we might be the primogenitors of the vikings. Your idea of "we will inspire the native peoples to become vikings" doesn't hold up. The vikings could only do all the stuff they did because they had agriculture back home. The natives up north would have to learn how to do agriculture and go through a lot of boat-building before they arrive at longships.
 
veekie said:
Considering Nomads drive by every couple generations...probably not something I want to count on.

Just get some double Main Trails out at last. We know they work, they are cheap, and we even generate Wealth off the process!
Note that Stonepen, Black River and Northshore are suffering drift and integrating won't really help them aside from remove a northern political focus point.
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They're a massive focus point. The Stallion Tribe was originally composed of nomads and we've had hints to integrate them long ago. They were at the forefront of the North-South divide a while back. The fact that it even takes 3 generations for the culture to fully blend shows how badly they've drifted away from us. Ancestral Deeds was the first mechanically obvious difference in cultural drift but the Stallions have been there whenever we have any internal problems.

They've existed for nearly half of this quest. We got them back in late April.

Edit: Also, key quote.
Academia Nut said:
the Stallion Tribes are honestly going to be the nucleation point for a number of social problems as they are the spearpoint of interaction between the People and other cultures.
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Wouldn't integration push us over our Martial cap? Just how much Martial do the Stallions have?

I would rather build trails to them, on the whole, followed by a building, eg Saltern. For multiple reasons: roads are cheap in the short term, so we can do them while saving up for other things. They will push our road building tech along (less Cent boost would be great). They will help us administer the Stallions, in whatever form they take, March or province. And not least, I don't specifically mind the Stallions having a more military culture - after all, they're our shield against the nomads, it's inevitable and probably helpful - so long as they still feel that they're part of the People. So I'd rather focus efforts on building connections, rather than trying to erase the differences.

Plus, I'd rather propagate than integrate, to take more land and retain our March, and propagation probably won't help with cultural divide, so we need some other way to keep them as happy citizens.

ETA The Stallions would likely enjoy the Games.
 
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If we integrate the March, wait three turns, and then create a new one, won't we still end up with the same problems as we originally had with the Stallion Tribes? They are still going to be mixing with nomads, they are still going to have a pastoral economy, we'll still have terrible communications, and we'll still have terrible cultural influence. Five turns after their creation, I'd bet that we couldn't tell the difference between a propagated Stallion Tribes and a newly created March.
 
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Rakuhn said:
If we integrae the March, wait three turns, and then create a new one, won't we still end up with the same problems as we originally had with the Stallion Tribes? They are still going to be mixing with nomads, they are still going to have a pastoral economy, we'll still have terrible communications, and we'll still have terrible cultural propagation. Five turns after their creation, I'd bet that we couldn't tell the difference between a propagated Stallion Tribes and a newly created March.
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That's where we have to spend effort to propagate our values to all of our People.
 
Rakuhn said:
If we integrae the March, wait three turns, and then create a new one, won't we still end up with the same problems as we originally had with the Stallion Tribes? They are still going to be mixing with nomads, they are still going to have a pastoral economy, we'll still have terrible communications, and we'll still have terrible cultural influence. Five turns after their creation, I'd bet that we couldn't tell the difference between a propagated Stallion Tribes and a newly created March.
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They wouldn't have the political power to unify the northern territories the way the Stallion Tribes do.
 
Integrating the Stallion Tribes is one of those things that's expensive in the short term but will save on so much trouble in the long term.
 
Rakuhn said:
If we integrae the March, wait three turns, and then create a new one, won't we still end up with the same problems as we originally had with the Stallion Tribes? They are still going to be mixing with nomads, they are still going to have a pastoral economy, we'll still have terrible communications, and we'll still have terrible cultural propagation. Five turns after their creation, I'd bet that we couldn't tell the difference between a propagated Stallion Tribes and a newly created March.
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What course of action do you favor? Do you want to integrate them and not found a new March? Probably not militarily feasible. You mentioned poor communication; do you want to build roads? I'll support that, we just need Centralization room. Do you want more temples to reinforce our culture? That might help, or they might just gain divergent priests.

What are you advocating?
 
Abby Normal said:
Ahh, ok that makes sense, though personally i'd just as soon get that cent room by making one of the three provinces available to us,since while i dont want to do so during the megaproject, i doubt we'll have the actions to either integrate/propogate ST or to do the double main trails until after its over anyway :p
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...but each new province increases the amount of roads needed.
 
I don't see the need to propagate the Stallion Tribes, considering they would just be spreading into more nomad land that can be taken at any time.

Plus, we could always use the 3 turns between absorption and cultural integration of the Stallion Tribes to improve communications and infrastructure by building roads and aqueducts and such, as well as a canal.

Edit: Also, on the discussion about the necessity of a march, wasn't one of the main reasons we hired the Heavan's Hawk to protect our northern boarder from nomads?

I would think that an established nomad group that is supplied by a settled nation would be stronger than a newly migrated nomad group without any outside support, which is what we usually deal with.
 
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Therealtahu said:
They're a massive focus point. The Stallion Tribe was originally composed of nomads and we've had hints to integrate them long ago. They were at the forefront of the North-South divide a while back. The fact that it even takes 3 generations for the culture to fully blend shows how badly they've drifted away from us. Ancestral Deeds was the first mechanically obvious difference in cultural drift but the Stallions have been there whenever we have any internal problems.

They've existed for nearly half of this quest. We got them back in late April.

Edit: Also, key quote.
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The issue is that while they're a focus point, integrating them, then spawning a new March in 3 generations doesn't solve the problem, only delay it. Because the actual problem is shitty connectivity, leading to culture drift. Mixing them only really helps if you fix connectivity first, so that they will blend with the rest of our culture.

That's why you want the roads and religious infrastructure in place to culturally convert them before integrating them.
 
ThrawnCA said:
What course of action do you favor? Do you want to integrate them and not found a new March? Probably not militarily feasible. You mentioned poor communication; do you want to build roads? I'll support that, we just need Centralization room. Do you want more temples to reinforce our culture? That might help, or they might just gain divergent priests.

What are you advocating?
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Propagation. Build new roads. Build new temples.

Integration and waiting three turns does not achieve the stated goal of 'eliminating cultural divergence'. It merely delays it for several turns, gives us too high of a military score, and wastes a main action.
 
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