Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
-
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Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
- Location
- Diamond City
My main worry is that trying to be a trade naval power with an empire that has a direct land connection to you is frustrating in the sense, that sooner or later, they're going to try conquering you. Preventing empires forming near our borders makes sure we have the freedom to be full phoenocians to our heart's content.
The wiki said that the Phoenicians were a divided people, organized into city-states. I imagine that makes them easier to conquer.
- Location
- Huezil
You're forgeting Carthage...
Hence my advocacy for getting semaphore towers.
I figure we need a pony express service that can evolve into smoke signal towers, and then eventually into semaphore towers.
We keep hammering out "Build outposts" or something indirect.
- Location
- United States
Definitely agree on keeping a lid on enemy civs that are at our borders. I'm more advocating setting up sea trade than naval supremacy though. We have a very good advantage in the form of our luxuries, so that would be a great thing to trade in exchange for particular techs that any other civs we trade with have. After all, someone has metal working so it makes sense that other civs (which have specific terrain that encourages certain tech advances) would have tech that we objectively want because it'll be really, really good to have.
An example of niche techs that we might want:
Mining, anything involving producing textiles, military tech, naval tech, more developed forms of tech we already have, etc.
We have a lot to gain from pushing for naval trade...but i'm not sure about going all in since we have so many problems on our borders.
Edit: Forgot to mention, we could potentially get our hands on cotton or spices, and grow them in our awesomely fertile lands!
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I want to develop Naval technology really far so that we can colonize the Not!Americas and go to Not!India.
- Location
- United States
Ehh, not sure if there's gonna be either of those.
We risk spreading ourselves thin if we do that, but we also have a lot to potentially gain from grabbing all the best land. On the other hand, it would open up a lot of potential conflicts from the natives. I feel like focusing on our sea trade connections would give us more of a supply line for further expeditions, as well as more information on the neighboring continents.
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
That is going to be Extremely difficult, were near the Not!mediterranenan meaning REALLY far from the lands where colonizing from is easiest.
Though, India is literally closest to us.
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
Ah yes, the "Ram Them!" stratagem.
I think the idea was that we're violent.
We plan on doing both. We can both conquer the sea through trade and conquer the rest of Not!FertileCrescent through a mix of hard soft power and outlasting others through weather-based deprivation.
Note that if we just try to conquer the world in a Phoenician-style trade-based rulership with shallow land penetration, we will suffer from a decreased access to those materials that would allow us to build ships and trade items that we own from the start, rather than playing middleman. It's best to establish a solid base and then continue spreading that base, balanced through gains from other, unimpacted nations.
I'm worried both about having enemy states with direct-and-easy land connections to me (like the ST once we've conquered the north) and about not having enough material sources to outweigh enemy naval armies. If we get enough land we can just blockade and assault the ports of a nation that is attacking us on land, which will allow us to use those bodies and talents that are not applicable to the land-based war.
I support going in this order: 1) Switch back and forth between a) conquering the north and b) establishing new settlements and more farms at home 2) When we hit ST-land, sit there and wait for them to attack us or crumble. While doing this, expand fishing. 3) When sea trade has been established via Fishing, engage in unequal land trade with ST and see if they crumble.
Edit: Or just give balanced choices between fishers, valley, and north. Main project of Canal comes when we hit 4 or 5 with our econ. Prior to that, as many econ actions as are feasible, with an emphasis on consolidating Step-Farms, improving ship technology, and establishing more settlements so as to fully occupy all the land in our original starting place. (i.e., for the rotation Valley actions = Farm + New Settlement; Fisher = Expand Fishing + Expand Snails; North = Trails + War) Cultural improvement actions should be done all at once next turn, if the war is over, or as we have spare slots.
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- Location
- BaWü
We need to get a theory of language for that to work, as you can't really use our writing style as basis for them.
They would also not help with communication over the sea.
I think that a land communication is easier and our control of it will be better as it is harder to loose the messenger than to loose a ship as the messenger can try to get shelter if a storm hits.
- Location
- United States
Honestly, i'm not even sure how much of a threat ST is now. They've hit stability issues because of their failed crops (it was bad enough they stopped fighting the Dread Priests, wtf), their village has no easy access to fresh water and in fact relies on seasonal flooding for it. In Droughts they rely almost entirely on others giving them food...and now they've assimilated a bunch of those gift givers. If we assimilate the North, they're screwed for a new source of food. At that point, we could easily start trading with them and make them reliant on our good will, while we culturally war with them.
This would be many turns from now though, so our culture and religion would be much more developed. ST however, are in desperate need of food, and will likely focus alot on diplomacy to get it and econ to make it.
I figure we'll build up settlements up and down the coast and the roads, not actually use boats to carry messages.
Not quite. The Romans devised the Floating Bridge...a literal large deployable bridge they can use for boarding actions by turning a boarding action into a conventional legion fight.
Bringing forests to the sea would, I think, be difficult.
- Location
- BaWü
I thought the plan was to use the Phoneticians as our role model and they started to expand using colonies and not just the sea as an easier way for internal transport.
I want to be a sea power, but I also want to retain control over the empire, and the best way to do that is to make sure they have a strong connection to us.
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
I 100% agree that they're not a threat now. It's just that their continued existence is a threat, because they are not part of us and therefore not predictable and not trustable. I feel that way about the WC, too, but historically and presently they've always been a victim, and are reliant on knowing that we won't invade them. So we won't, until we've conquered the known North and have started trading with ST from a position of superior culture, economic strength, and total landmass.
That is literally the most outrageous thing I've ever heard of. "Ah yes, we're going to deploy a bridge on the water!" I assume it's from one boat to another and entails a heavy metal spike to lodge it?
Also, the canal is the way we'd bring forests to the sea. You cut the logs at a relevant location and ship them by wagon to river barge, then to shipyards either on the coast (necessary for large ships) or on a river (doable for smaller ones). But you know this.
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- Location
- Huezil
the bridge of heliopolis was made with hemp cordage...
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
Is this supposed to be a rustifying truism, like "the path to greatness is taken one step at a time," "Even Yggrdrasil grew up winter by winter, rain by rain"
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- Location
- Hell
No as in, the bridges of heliopolis were literally made with hemp
- Location
- United States
Honestly, I feel that we'd get much more diverse luxuries and tech from naval trade than the ST. They are a trade hub, but from minor villages that all have the same climates and don't actually have any significant tech diversity. If we trade with other continents we'll get more of the good stuff since they all have different climates, natural advantages(luxuries, strategic resources, different animals, different crops, etc), and are most likely more advanced. I feel like passive trade with ST would be better really. What are they gonna do if we take all their potential followers, declare war? We can just wait them out really, since our land actually produces food as opposed to jack all they make. They'd be difficult to eradicate 'cause of their damn cave but they can't really beat us at all.
War Against the Blight Completed - War Against the Storm I
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Word filters down from the High Chief and the elders: the practice of breaking and exposure is to be discontinued. This riles the warriors up, but an explanation is also brought along. The crime for which the enemy are being punished is one of desecration and pollution of the self. The proscription of such behaviour is not for the benefit of the enemy, but the benefit of the people. It is well known how anger and can sit upon the heart and guts, weighing it down and poisoning a man's soul. The evidence of such corruption is easily seen in the fact that the Storm Clan had declared hostilities despite being offered the hand of friendship and trade. Retribution and punishment had to follow, but it not only had to be proportional to the crime, some thought had to be devoted to not just those being punished, but the one carrying out the punishment. Hatred and cruelty were a poison that one should spit out. While not everyone accepted this idea, they at least accepted the authority of the High Chief, backed by the wisdom of the elders and shamans, and the campfire discussions began to have a cascading effect.
What was the purpose of retribution? The concept was simple: to set things right that had been made wrong. But some things could never be made right. A broken item might be replaced by something of equivalent value, but some things could not be replaced. The dead could not be brought back to life through the death of another, and it had been well known to the People that punishment had to stop at some point, lest two parties destroy each other taking revenge for the previous revenge of the other. It was also known that certain acts could be polluting to the body and soul, so to take the head of an enemy for taking the head of your friend was an inherently corrupt act that could not be tolerated. Were there other situations where the act of retribution might pollute the one carrying it out?
Weighty thoughts, probably best relegated to elders and seers to consider, and they certainly wouldn't stop the warriors from carrying out their mission to root out the invaders from protected lands.
Choose an area of advancement...
[] Social
[] Spiritual
[] Martial
Unfortunately, the Storm Clan proves to be simply better at fighting, although not for weakness on the part of the People. They just know how to time their attacks just right to catch their targets off guard, and they ravage the villages under the protection of the People, much to the fury and sorrow of the warriors, even as new weapons were being constructed for their use. While the new, more agile carts were definitely an improvement they were difficult to use on their own territory and the fighting had moved up onto the hills enough that it wasn't particularly safe to try to press on to the enemy's more open plains, where while they would be more useful, the chances of getting swarmed were also much higher. More significant to the fighting was the fact that, with so much high quality wood from the forests there had been work put into making better bows, which were the most useful weapon for striking against the nomads. It had been found that reworking the shape allowed for a stronger draw, and the High Chief had declared that the newer design was to be propagated to the warriors as more of them became available. While not everyone liked them, for those with the strength for them they could shoot further and harder so they managed to catch a few enemies in ambushes when they had thought that pieces of cover were out of effective range and had thus been insufficiently wary.
Interestingly, despite the frustration and losses, the people the warriors were trying to protect were not blaming them, not in general anyway - there were a few emotional moments of frantic people blaming the people trying to defend them for not being there or not fighting enough. Still, as it was, the people in the worst settlements began to fall back, deeper into the hills and mountains, and more than one clan simply packed up entirely and asked if there was space within the land of the People. They were told that there was plenty of room and they would be most welcome to join up.
It was in fact as the High Chief was consulting with the other chiefs and the advisory council on where to settle these newcomers that it suddenly all clicked together. There was no permanent solution to the blight, but that didn't matter. They could repair the damage, and even if it might start cropping up again they could just repair it again. They'd already been basically doing the solution for generations, they just needed to realize it and continue it forward. Cut paths in the forests to allow ease of movement, maintaining them to prevent them from growing too much and cutting too wide a swath. Whenever blight emerged, cut down and burn out the forest. Clear plots to farm with black soil for a few years before planting new trees for materials and orchards and manage them. And when those plots grew old or blighted, burn them down to repeat the cycle once more. Add in restoration of the hills with terracing, and careful management of the number of families within the managed zones so as to not overpopulate the region and overwhelm the ability to bounce back, and it would all work.
It wasn't a solution.
It was a system.
Megaproject Completed!
Sacred Forest
While the forests stand and the people care for them, the forests shall care for them. As long as the Sacred Forest is intact, all forests under the control of the People are considered managed, and gain the new action Expand Forest.
(With current territorial control, gain +2 Economy immediately, net +1 Econ this turn from cost of megaproject. Timing consideration: Megaproject completes before paying cost of War Carts)
Gardeners of the Land -> Shapers of the Land
This world is good, but through tremendous effort and skill, it can be made better, an act which your people take immense joy and pride in. Tread not lightly upon land defended by its sculptors.
Pros: Bonuses to all actions relating to land management, bonuses when fighting on own terrain, additional Econ and Stability whenever completing a land management type Megaproject
Cons: Additional strife caused by deliberate environmental disruption unless it is for the long term betterment of the land, or loss of territory to others
Pick one free commemoration (no additional action or cost)
[] Establish Annual Festival
[] Expand Current Holy Site
[] New Holy Site
Still, as the seasons go on, and the depredations of the Storm Clan upon the allies of the People push further into the hills, a growing, gnashing frustration sets in. The enemy have not yet set foot upon land tended by the People, but they grow uncomfortably close. Several grand plans for bringing vengeance upon the enemy are devised, and while the advisors argue bitterly with each other over them, it is obvious that at this point the only long term solution is to either cause enough damage to the nomads that they decide to look elsewhere for a few generations, or to simply leave them with nothing worthwhile to raid.
Strategic Response...
[] Lure the nomads deeper into People controlled territory and launch a massive ambush
[] Wait for more war carts to be constructed and mass them for use against the nomads
[] Deliberately expose trade caravans and settlements as bait for ambushes
[] Continue with current methods
[] Increase fortification around endangered settlements (Costs Econ)
[] Evacuate endangered settlements into the People's territory (Warning: Abandonment of associated territory has a chance of triggering Shapers malus)
Then there is the diplomatic response. A few warriors had wandered up from the Western Confederacy, but mostly they had their own problems to deal with. The suggestion had been put forward that the Storm Clan had to have other enemies out there who could potentially hit them from a different direction and draw them out. It was of course a major risk considering it would be going into unknown territory with unknown people, but if it did work... Others who favour other diplomatic means point out that there is another group famed for their skill in battle and who might benefit from an exchange of advisors for dealing with their agricultural practices...
Diplomatic Response...
[] Send a diplomatic expedition Into the Wild in the hopes of finding someone who can help
[] Send a diplomatic expedition to the Spirit Talkers to attempt to trade for assistance
[] Stay home for the time being
What was the purpose of retribution? The concept was simple: to set things right that had been made wrong. But some things could never be made right. A broken item might be replaced by something of equivalent value, but some things could not be replaced. The dead could not be brought back to life through the death of another, and it had been well known to the People that punishment had to stop at some point, lest two parties destroy each other taking revenge for the previous revenge of the other. It was also known that certain acts could be polluting to the body and soul, so to take the head of an enemy for taking the head of your friend was an inherently corrupt act that could not be tolerated. Were there other situations where the act of retribution might pollute the one carrying it out?
Weighty thoughts, probably best relegated to elders and seers to consider, and they certainly wouldn't stop the warriors from carrying out their mission to root out the invaders from protected lands.
Choose an area of advancement...
[] Social
[] Spiritual
[] Martial
Unfortunately, the Storm Clan proves to be simply better at fighting, although not for weakness on the part of the People. They just know how to time their attacks just right to catch their targets off guard, and they ravage the villages under the protection of the People, much to the fury and sorrow of the warriors, even as new weapons were being constructed for their use. While the new, more agile carts were definitely an improvement they were difficult to use on their own territory and the fighting had moved up onto the hills enough that it wasn't particularly safe to try to press on to the enemy's more open plains, where while they would be more useful, the chances of getting swarmed were also much higher. More significant to the fighting was the fact that, with so much high quality wood from the forests there had been work put into making better bows, which were the most useful weapon for striking against the nomads. It had been found that reworking the shape allowed for a stronger draw, and the High Chief had declared that the newer design was to be propagated to the warriors as more of them became available. While not everyone liked them, for those with the strength for them they could shoot further and harder so they managed to catch a few enemies in ambushes when they had thought that pieces of cover were out of effective range and had thus been insufficiently wary.
Interestingly, despite the frustration and losses, the people the warriors were trying to protect were not blaming them, not in general anyway - there were a few emotional moments of frantic people blaming the people trying to defend them for not being there or not fighting enough. Still, as it was, the people in the worst settlements began to fall back, deeper into the hills and mountains, and more than one clan simply packed up entirely and asked if there was space within the land of the People. They were told that there was plenty of room and they would be most welcome to join up.
It was in fact as the High Chief was consulting with the other chiefs and the advisory council on where to settle these newcomers that it suddenly all clicked together. There was no permanent solution to the blight, but that didn't matter. They could repair the damage, and even if it might start cropping up again they could just repair it again. They'd already been basically doing the solution for generations, they just needed to realize it and continue it forward. Cut paths in the forests to allow ease of movement, maintaining them to prevent them from growing too much and cutting too wide a swath. Whenever blight emerged, cut down and burn out the forest. Clear plots to farm with black soil for a few years before planting new trees for materials and orchards and manage them. And when those plots grew old or blighted, burn them down to repeat the cycle once more. Add in restoration of the hills with terracing, and careful management of the number of families within the managed zones so as to not overpopulate the region and overwhelm the ability to bounce back, and it would all work.
It wasn't a solution.
It was a system.
Megaproject Completed!
Sacred Forest
While the forests stand and the people care for them, the forests shall care for them. As long as the Sacred Forest is intact, all forests under the control of the People are considered managed, and gain the new action Expand Forest.
(With current territorial control, gain +2 Economy immediately, net +1 Econ this turn from cost of megaproject. Timing consideration: Megaproject completes before paying cost of War Carts)
Gardeners of the Land -> Shapers of the Land
This world is good, but through tremendous effort and skill, it can be made better, an act which your people take immense joy and pride in. Tread not lightly upon land defended by its sculptors.
Pros: Bonuses to all actions relating to land management, bonuses when fighting on own terrain, additional Econ and Stability whenever completing a land management type Megaproject
Cons: Additional strife caused by deliberate environmental disruption unless it is for the long term betterment of the land, or loss of territory to others
Pick one free commemoration (no additional action or cost)
[] Establish Annual Festival
[] Expand Current Holy Site
[] New Holy Site
Still, as the seasons go on, and the depredations of the Storm Clan upon the allies of the People push further into the hills, a growing, gnashing frustration sets in. The enemy have not yet set foot upon land tended by the People, but they grow uncomfortably close. Several grand plans for bringing vengeance upon the enemy are devised, and while the advisors argue bitterly with each other over them, it is obvious that at this point the only long term solution is to either cause enough damage to the nomads that they decide to look elsewhere for a few generations, or to simply leave them with nothing worthwhile to raid.
Strategic Response...
[] Lure the nomads deeper into People controlled territory and launch a massive ambush
[] Wait for more war carts to be constructed and mass them for use against the nomads
[] Deliberately expose trade caravans and settlements as bait for ambushes
[] Continue with current methods
[] Increase fortification around endangered settlements (Costs Econ)
[] Evacuate endangered settlements into the People's territory (Warning: Abandonment of associated territory has a chance of triggering Shapers malus)
Then there is the diplomatic response. A few warriors had wandered up from the Western Confederacy, but mostly they had their own problems to deal with. The suggestion had been put forward that the Storm Clan had to have other enemies out there who could potentially hit them from a different direction and draw them out. It was of course a major risk considering it would be going into unknown territory with unknown people, but if it did work... Others who favour other diplomatic means point out that there is another group famed for their skill in battle and who might benefit from an exchange of advisors for dealing with their agricultural practices...
Diplomatic Response...
[] Send a diplomatic expedition Into the Wild in the hopes of finding someone who can help
[] Send a diplomatic expedition to the Spirit Talkers to attempt to trade for assistance
[] Stay home for the time being
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