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Paths of Civilization

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DocMatoi said:
Speaking as someone who knows @ManusDomine outside SV, he really wants to participate(And really really loves the quest), but as the thread's assigned moderator he can't. Conflict-of-interest rules.
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Well since you know Manus best, congratulations! I pronounce you his sockpuppet :p
Umi-san said:
Why not both? Have dedicated warhorse lines but breed them out again into a slow pop. And then breed that slow pop. in with the best members.
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Potato and Chip said:
I have a feeling that all the cultures around us would be very resistant to the idea of a woman participating in a battle in any form, unlike us. Because of this they'll first have to breed horses strong enough to actually carry a man for them to invent horse riding. We on the other hand are okay with woman being in battle so we don't have to breed our horses bigger, we can just breed them to have more stamina (they'll have to breed for two things, size+stamina. We only have to breed for one). To me this seems like a huge advantage, by the time others breed horses to be big enough that the idea of riding them occurs we'll have already been breeding our warhorses for a while. And seeing as how we're already using woman messengers in battle all it would take is one woman using a bow to defend herself and our generals will start thinking that maybe there are other ways these warrior women can be used.
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Missing the point. Once cavalry is more widely known, it becomes an arms race to breed the better horse. Which is why I asked my question.

Do we play it slow and steady, lagging behind the others, but avoid inbreeding? Or do we run roughshod(lol) to breed the warhorse, with all the problems veekie has already stated?
 
Sivantic said:
Well since you know Manus best, congratulations! I pronounce you his sockpuppet :p
Missing the point. Once cavalry is more widely known, it becomes an arms race to breed the better horse. Which is why I asked my question.
Do we play it slow and steady, lagging behind the others, but avoid inbreeding? Or do we run roughshod(lol) to breed the warhorse, with all the problems veekie has already stated?
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The games would help with this because we surely will have competitions of horse riding, cart-racing horses would breed the destrier type, running horses would breed not only the fast types but the endurance types because of various modalities of races.

Any imperfect horse will be gelded or will die from the sports, culling the inbreed ones.
 
Malevolo said:
The games would help with this because we surely will have competitions of horse riding, cart-racing horses would breed the destrier type, running horses would breed not only the fast types but the endurance types because of various modalities of races.

Any imperfect horse will be gelded or will die from the sports, culling the inbreed ones.
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Irrelevant. You are talking about giving motive to breed better horses. Having an arms race already does that.

I am talking about the process of breeding. Games would not help with that as there are only two paths. Slow and Steady, or Fast and Erratic. I imagine there will eventually be a vote on it, which is why I ask now.

We currently have a lead as none of the surrounding polities have such a thing, but that won't last forever.
 
Really why are so many chasing the Shiny of war? we can't even administrate that much new land, let alone properly secure it.
 
Sivantic said:
Irrelevant. You are talking about giving motive to breed better horses. Having an arms race already does that.

I am talking about the process of breeding. Games would not help with that as there are only two paths. Slow and Steady, or Fast and Erratic. I imagine there will eventually be a vote on it, which is why I ask now.

We currently have a lead as none of the surrounding polities have such a thing, but that won't last forever.
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From what i have reading the actual breeding method is "Fast" and Steady...Horse Breeding

Horse pregnancy takes 11 months, the same time that takes to foal to become mature and exibhit his potential...
 
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@Sivantic It's not missing the point, it's offering a third option to the imaginary binary: one can both pursue the best warhorses and have an ancillary population of non-inbred horses which can be bred into the warhorses.

Otherwise, I'd probably rather do the inbred path. It makes the horses a more valuable commodity and can be mitigated through looting or trading for horses from the outside. Going this way also makes breeding draft horses, race horses, etc. more likely to occur. Admittedly, however, this opinion isn't taking into account moral qualms about knowingly breeding beasts in a flawed manner in order to gain an advantage. With the latter included, slower is a more preferable approach which can trade for superior warhorses if so desired. It's also a path that makes our stock of horses more interchangeable.
 
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Sivantic said:
...Using modern techniques and modern science.

We are still working out how it works and only have taken a few steps into actually breeding anything, as opposed to just letting the horses sex each other like I suspect we do.

Stop trying to avoid the question >.>
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Nope i'm tallking about Hand Mating here, the only advances we use in the actual time is genetic profiling of the horses, everything else is old techniques.
 
Sivantic said:
Missing the point. Once cavalry is more widely known, it becomes an arms race to breed the better horse. Which is why I asked my question.

Do we play it slow and steady, lagging behind the others, but avoid inbreeding? Or do we run roughshod(lol) to breed the warhorse, with all the problems veekie has already stated?
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And I'm saying that due to the fact that we use woman as riders we have the advantage over our neighbors no matter which two of these choices we use. If we do the slow and steady route it doesn't mean we have to wait until we have calvary, unlike our neighbors who would have to wait until they breed a big enough horse to even carry a male warrior much less one that can last long enough to run around in battle. All it would mean is that we would have to wait for better calvary, as currently our horses can carry female warriors around.

If we try to breed our warhorses quickly despite the negative effects on their genetics we still hold the advantage because we're only breeding for one trait. Other groups would have to breed for both bigger size and stamina and that limits their potential selections greatly. We on the other hand only have to select for stamina which means our potential selections are more varied and thus our horse's gene pool will be more varied meaning inbreeding will be less severe.
 
Umi-san said:
@Sivantic It's not missing the point, it's offering a third option to the imaginary binary: one can both pursue the best warhorses and have an ancillary population of non-inbred horses which can be bred into the warhorses.

Otherwise, I'd probably rather do the inbred path. It makes the horses a more valuable commodity and can be mitigated through looting or trading for horses from the outside. Going this way also makes breeding draft horses, race horses, etc. more likely to occur. Admittedly, however, this opinion isn't taking into account moral qualms about knowingly breeding beasts in a flawed manner in order to gain an advantage. With the latter included, slower is a more preferable approach which can trade for superior warhorses if so desired. It's also a path that makes our stock of horses more interchangeable.
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Still avoiding the question as that would imply having both already.

As to this part, I agree. There is a reason I compared it to an arms race. Others are going to be doing there best to breed the better horse as we already know that they are nega-SV and understand the importance of cavalry. There is value in both, just wondering which way the thread was leaning towards

Kiba said:
We bred white cows.
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Which is why I said we took a few steps. Hardly the modern method Malevolo linked.
Malevolo said:
Nope i'm tallking about Hand Mating here, the only advances we use in the actual time is genetic profiling of the horses, everything else is old techniques.
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Which is exactly my point. We can sit here all day decrying them for not having Wiki at the touch of their finger, but they have to spend decades figuring this out, and not necessarily getting it right the first time.
Carrnage said:
War with hathytyn they're too far from us, at best they will be part of hatriver, and i really am not sure about having a vassal state that's so large.
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Well rest assured that science has a 30+ lead. As to size, we haven't an actual concrete picture on how big they are, only that they are a third of their former size.
Potato and Chip said:
And I'm saying that due to the fact that we use woman as riders we have the advantage over our neighbors no matter which two of these choices we use. If we do the slow and steady route it doesn't mean we have to wait until we have calvary, unlike our neighbors who would have to wait until they breed a big enough horse to even carry a male warrior much less one that can last long enough to run around in battle. All it would mean is that we would have to wait for better calvary, as currently our horses can carry female warriors around.

If we try to breed our warhorses quickly despite the negative effects on their genetics we still hold the advantage because we're only breeding for one trait. Other groups would have to breed for both bigger size and stamina and that limits their potential selections greatly. We on the other hand only have to select for stamina which means our potential selections are more varied and thus our horse's gene pool will be more varied meaning inbreeding will be less severe.
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Sure

So which way would you choose?
 
Okay guys be nice

Reemebr that time we made a fucking canal even though we didnt have metal tools?! shhhh just bask my babies bask

weve done great things
 
Sivantic said:
Which is why I said we took a few steps. Hardly the modern method Malevolo linked.
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Modern? Aren't you reading what i have posted?

When Do You Breed?
Determine the optimum time to breed a mare by palpation and the use of complete, accurate records.

Hand Mating. Hand mating is probably the most widely used method of breeding horses. Usually one person handles or holds the mare to be bred while another one to two people handle the stallion. The stallion is allowed to breed the mare naturally. Since both the mare and stallion are handled, the two are not as likely to be injured as they would if they were simply turned loose together. The mare should have been teased previously and shown to be in heat and receptive to the stallion. The mare's hind legs are usually hobbled in some manner so she cannot kick the stallion and stallion handlers. The mare should also have had her tail wrapped and her external genitalia cleaned. Wash external genitalia with a mild liquid detergent such as a liquid dishwashing soap. The genitalia along with the buttocks should be soaped and thoroughly rinsed three times. The stallion's penis should also be thoroughly soaped and rinsed about three times. Controversy still exists about proper hygiene for a stallion. In light of recent reports, it appears a stallion's penis should not be washed every time he is used. Some non-pathogenic disease-preventing bacteria are removed when a stallion is washed, so if the penis is washed every day or every other day, the incidence of pathogenic bacteria and diseases may actually increase. Current recommendations are to wash the stallion's penis about once a week. Once a week cleansing with a mild liquid dishwashing soap will also prevent irritation to the penis which affects the stallion's libido.

Pasture Mating. Pasture mating is used by many breeding farms. The stallion is turned out with a band of broodmares for the entire breeding season. Conception rates are usually higher than for other methods of breeding, but the stallion and mares are more likely to get injured than in hand breeding or artificial insemination. Probably the biggest disadvantage of pasture breeding is that it is more difficult to establish breeding dates and in turn foaling dates for mares.

This is the same process we do with cows, and it's the same process used to breed competition horses because ARTIFICIAL INSEMINATION IS FORBIDDEN!

So are you saying the guys palpating a mare to see if she's in heat and putting her together with the stallion, them waiting two months to see if she's pregnant is a modern method? Because that's the actual process for competition horses and Olympic horses.
 
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Killer_Whale said:
Any immediate fires -> Golden age -> Grand Palace -> Census -> Games/Dam -> Conquer/annex lowlands.
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I'm glad you're planning ahead. May I suggest a refinement?

Getting past the "immediate fires" stage is likely the biggest hurdle. The way I see it, our best chance is to build more marches, settlements, colonies, etc - anything that increases the number of actions we take - so that they can firefight for us. Once we've built the NE March and settled the E and NE Redhills, I agree with building the palace and census to ensure we can actually handle them.

ETA: the Redhills settlements also provide a staging ground for the Lowlands settlement. I doubt we can or should try to conquer the whole lowlands, but taking and holding a slice will help to further fragment it, which is desirable.
 
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