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Paths of Civilization

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bluefur87 said:
Blue's Department of the Ymaryn: The Rebirth of Plans
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This is a great summary; I wish I could upvote it in more than one category!

My $0.02 is, clearly we can't satisfy all of those priorities so long as we have just one Main action and two secondaries per turn - and they're often spent on firefighting. The only way to get everything done is to get more actions. Which means more periphery states.

However, as a prerequisite to developing those, we need prestige. We also need to ensure that our government can handle them, lest our gold mines of extra actions break down and become portals to hell.

The most likely project to address both of those prerequisites seems like the Grand Palace. Although the census might help a lot too, if we already have plenty of Prestige (I'm assuming that the Palace would boost prestige).

So, since we seem to have repulsed the nomads for the time being, I'd advocate that we start on the palace - or alternative method to solidify our administrative capabilities, if the thread prefers - and expand our reach, either by settling Redhills, or vassalising the Metal Workers, or even joining in the latest lowlands fight and trying to seize a chunk (higher risk, higher reward). To please everyone, we need to gain more actions.
 
I'm both pro lowland and steppes. The inner conqueror peace keeper will be happy once the known world is talking in our language and trading our goods.
 
Candesce said:
Why, oh why, are people talking about settling the steppes again
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Because another march means 2 more Main actions per turn and effective higher Martial cap that'll help defend us from nomad hordes. It's not about making everything green and properly "settling", it's just getting more warriors, more walls, and more watch towers between us and the nomads for a single Main action on our part.
 
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Andres110 said:
Because another march means 2 more Main actions per turn and effective higher Martial cap that'll help defend us from nomad hordes. It's not about making everything green and properly "settling", it's just getting more warriors, more walls, and more watch towers between us and the nomads.
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I think it was the idea of forest walking till we hit that new place we found which was the problem, not anything about the NE March. I'm probably wrong though?
 
Andres110 said:
Because another march means 2 more Main actions per turn and effective higher Martial cap that'll help defend us from nomad hordes. It's not about making everything green and properly "settling", it's just getting more warriors, more walls, and more watch towers between us and the nomads.
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NE is fine, if only to protect that gap we have and to complete our wall. Otherwise...Nope to settling along the river.
 
BungieONI said:
This comes from my knowledge that in the past that Palace's were evolved from storehouses for food, a very admin heavy task and then became places of living and governance.

I am seeing the palace as the King's House for diplomatic affairs, but since the King is the head of our Bureaucracy, it is also the Bureaucracies house and where it can put a central point to opperate out of.
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We already have managed granaries to a heavy degree. And yeah, the Palace would be used for administrative meetings, but I don't see it as really making those meetings more efficient- just in the same place and with really fancy artwork and architecture.
And our administrators are definitely making lots of meetings already, they wouldn't be able to do their job at all if they didn't.

It'd certainly be useful, but compared to making sure that we always have a record of everyone's name and house? Making sure that everyone pays their taxes and that we can make sure everyone gets their fair share of food?
 
notgreat said:
making sure that we always have a record of everyone's name and house? Making sure that everyone pays their taxes and that we can make sure everyone gets their fair share of food?
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So you're advocating for admin improvement via Census? Works for me. Whatever makes it feasible to govern extra settlements that can take extra actions.
 
Settling along the river northwards is, to put it mildly. What I would suggest is sending an expedition to get into contact with the local tribes, convince the local tribes to gather it in exchange for goods and semi-regularly send traders to collect and exchange dyes/wines/salt for the amber and fur. No trade post necessarily required, nothing we really have to defend, and decent chances for the nomads to not murder our traders regardless of the tribes because we'll simply stop sending trade expeditions.

Nomads aren't stupid enough to fail to realize that if they attack said traders the traders aren't coming back.

IIRC, this is a lot of how trading with nomads in the long term functioned historically. You directly attack the traders for short term wealth, chances are another tribe that does trade with the traders will eventually topple you. It's far more likely that tribes will fight over who get's to trade with us in this scenario rather than attack us directly. This changes if we actually establish a meaningful presence they can raid for wealth without trading.
 
notgreat said:
It'd certainly be useful, but compared to making sure that we always have a record of everyone's name and house? Making sure that everyone pays their taxes and that we can make sure everyone gets their fair share of food?
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The Grand Palace will help manage the administration requirements of the Census.

Karugus said:
Settling along the river northwards is, to put it mildly.
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"Is to put it mildly" what? Overambitious? Impossible? Sub-optimal? Ill-advised?
 
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Karugus said:
Settling along the river northwards is, to put it mildly. What I would suggest is sending an expedition to get into contact with the local tribes, convince the local tribes to gather it in exchange for goods and semi-regularly send traders to collect and exchange dyes/wines/salt for the amber and fur. No trade post necessarily required, nothing we really have to defend, and decent chances for the nomads to not murder our traders regardless of the tribes because we'll simply stop sending trade expeditions.

Nomads aren't stupid enough to fail to realize that if they attack said traders the traders aren't coming back.

IIRC, this is a lot of how trading with nomads in the long term functioned historically. You directly attack the traders for short term wealth, chances are another tribe that does trade with the traders will eventually topple you. It's far more likely that tribes will fight over who get's to trade with us in this scenario rather than attack us directly. This changes if we actually establish a meaningful presence they can raid for wealth without trading.
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So basically send trade missions up that way? I'm fine with that. Let's us sound out the area.

Andres110 said:
The Grand Palace will help manage the administration requirements of the Census.


"Is to put it mildly" what? Overambitious? Impossible? Sub-optimal?
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There may not be a word in the English language so he left it blank.
 
Karugus said:
IIRC, this is a lot of how trading with nomads in the long term functioned historically. You directly attack the traders for short term wealth, chances are another tribe that does trade with the traders will eventually topple you. It's far more likely that tribes will fight over who get's to trade with us in this scenario rather than attack us directly.
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They may even compete amongst each other to see who gets access to trade resources. It's what the Native Americans did.
 
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Karugus said:
What I would suggest is sending an expedition to get into contact with the local tribes, convince the local tribes to gather it in exchange for goods and semi-regularly send traders to collect and exchange dyes/wines/salt for the amber and fur.
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Trade is awesome, but so is black soil, and so are forests, and watch towers, and lots of different things that we want. Trade alone won't address our civilisation's other needs, like food, defence, and government.

I still think that we need to focus on increasing the number of actions we can take. That way, we can trade and also do everything else.
 
[Main]Found March or Found Trading Post
[Secondary]Change Policy Progress
[Secondary]Restoration of Order

If we can get the Mystic Hero to work on all the actions then we need to do something like this
 
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Magnus-Domon: Spirit of Headaches, God of Clerks
  • Apocrypha
    • MAGNUS-DOMON
    Spirit of Headaches. God of Clerks.    ​

    It is evident, to the Ymaryn, that many other peoples do not value Harmony so much as themselves. Why should this be, when Crow is a Prankster, a Teacher, and a Devourer? Men make plans, and Crow laughs, but few can dispute that the lands of the Ymaryn are blessed and orderly. In part, this is the work of the Ymaryn, but legend among the clerks holds that this is also the work of a dogged and humble but eternal enemy of Gygo: Magnus-Domon, clerk-god of headaches.

    Magnus-Domon is a spirit of order and cannot tolerate disorder- he is typically depicted as a robed clerk holding his forehead as if in pain carrying a hammer. It is Crow's presence that draws him to the Ymaryn, for Crow will always be a creature that does not belong in the world, and though he cannot drive Crow from the world or the People, his hammer is consequently drawn to many minor spirits of disorder nearby. Notably, however, as a god of clerks rather than warriors, his hammer is typically used for punishment and to drive such spirits away from the area- not to kill them. He is often depicted with Mathulmyn as siblings- where Mathulmyn is the god of wisdom being offered, Magnus-Domon is the god of foolishness being punished.

    It is often claimed by many shamans that when stupidity or disaster befall the People and cause the clerks and leaders a great pain in their forehead that Magnus-Domon is tapping at their skulls with his hammer to get their attention and make them solve the problem. This is typically followed by significant glances at the nearest blunt object, at which point one's gaze returns to the offending parties. Often also a leader holding a meeting will bang on a table with a blunt object to silence arguing parties and indicate to those getting out of hand that Magnus-Domon's wrath is approaching.
     
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  • Apocrypha
    • Oh good, the salt's gone for now again.

    Probably leaning towards
    [Main] Found March - Northeast
    [Secondary] Snail Cultivation
    [Secondary] Snail Cultivation x2

    Pending any fires that need to get put out and I suspect there'll be something.
     
    [Main] New Trails
    [Secondary] Snail Cultivation
    [Secondary] Expand Forests

    Or glass workshop i guess?
     
    Spectrum said:
    Oh good, the salt's gone for now again.

    Probably leaning towards
    [Main] Found March - Northeast
    [Secondary] Snail Cultivation
    [Secondary] Snail Cultivation x2

    Pending any fires that need to get put out and I suspect there'll be something.
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    I'm down with founding a March, so long as we're comfortable that we'll be able to maintain order as we expand.
     
    Spectrum said:
    Oh good, the salt's gone for now again.

    Probably leaning towards
    [Main] Found March - Northeast
    [Secondary] Snail Cultivation
    [Secondary] Snail Cultivation x2

    Pending any fires that need to get put out and I suspect there'll be something.
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    I actually love this plan.
    Hopefully our Stab is not in the dumps.

    We can slot in The Grand Palace or Census in place of the snails, I figure, if the problem does not seem to be eventuating. Though I hesitate to do so even if everything looks okay for the moment next turn, because snails really does need to be done.
     
    I'd like to hit Stability 3 this coming turn - I think we have a good chance of fulfilling the other Golden Age requirements soon, with our constant income sources.
    There's a possibility of hitting 0 Religious Authority too though, and I suspect it's going to be a stat like Centralisation, where we don't want it too high or too low.

    Honestly, I'd just like us to spend a turn stabilising and getting our feet under us before grasping for new shinies.
     
    No matter which adjacent direction we expand - north into the steepes, or east into the lowlands, it will be a slow grind slugfest. Walking fortified settlements and forrests. Both will require high martial and admin to keep. While we need a CB to go on an offence war, we have that in both directions.

    My preferred direction is east simply because of the terrain quality. And I don't want the Xoh to exist past the iron age.
     
    Deathbybunnies said:
    I'd like to hit Stability 3 this coming turn - I think we have a good chance of fulfilling the other Golden Age requirements soon, with our constant income sources.
    There's a possibility of hitting 0 Religious Authority too though, and I suspect it's going to be a stat like Centralisation, where we don't want it too high or too low.

    Honestly, I'd just like us to spend a turn stabilising and getting our feet under us before grasping for new shinies.
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    Likely very hard to do. We may have to Main Snails next turn or some other big fire, and that precludes such activities. Beyond that it is kinda luck based to, what with our Stab options.
     
    Candesce said:
    So long as we're still in Balanced, our provinces probably handle the dyes in that case.
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    Yeah actually this is a really good point. I think we can leave the snails to Provinces and put out other fires.

    It just makes sense for them to grab it. Cause we definitely will have the resources.

    Killer_Whale said:
    No matter which adjacent direction we expand - north into the steepes, or east into the lowlands, it will be a slow grind slugfest. Walking fortified settlements and forrests. Both will require high martial and admin to keep. While we need a CB to go on an offence war, we have that in both directions.

    My preferred direction is east simply because of the terrain quality. And I don't want the Xoh to exist past the iron age.
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    Not sure we will actually need to go on offense, simply because I think any way we expand someone ain't gonna like it and attack us first. Probably before we can actually act on any CB's.
     
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