[X] [Value] Spread value (+Hero Generation)
I think this is worth it, and, contrary to claims I have read that it'll inevitably increase cultural stratification, many forms of ancestor worship can be pretty harmless.

Edit: Whooops, vote already locked. Didn't see.​
 
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We've had the tech to build those for a while now, but we haven't had the specific pressures that make them desirable before.

Given that thread would recognise the uses of the ranged weapon which does not require years of training to be even moderately useful, it would be kinda broken, even if our bowmen would probably still be better.
 
By the way, we still have guaranteed extra effects from maining Blackbirds.
It's not actually guaranteed:
Though i personally wouldn't be surprised if the next improvement we're getting out of maining blackbirds is a big one, and so this round's "additional effects" were "set up for big improvement next time". ...Or it could just be that we've done enough blackbirds that we don't have any more "additional effects" at this tech/societal/etc level?

Still, i have to imagine that between the proto-longboats, the massive number of scouts, and the best chariots and horses outside the nomads, we're an amazingly mobile and responsive army in comparison to the lowlands. I expect a situation where we can pick off the enemy and avoid a concerted fight, but if do we end up in a big battle we get smashed by more developed tactics and maybe even better gear among their elites.
...At least, i think we're still at a point where bronze is rare enough to be elite-troops only for our neighbors? Still, i'm expecting us to have a nasty run in with bronze shields countering our amazing archers at some point...
 
what's the point of demanding the last two also getting spent for more econ?
I swing pretty heavily conservative in times like this. I'd way rather have that 4 econ and 1 martial than a couple study actions this turn.

If I knew they would just (say) expand blackbirds and expand warriors, I'd have to think pretty hard about which I'd prefer.
 
So @Academia Nut, in a few turns time could we please have an update on the pantheons and religions in the region please, since we've solidified our pantheon and so have the Thunder Horse and Xoh to some extent.

Also we know nothing on the Hath gods and we've gotten some new gods, such as the Smith god you mentioned, and it would be nice to see how gods such as Math turned out in the end.

Sorry if I'm being annoying and asking after something that's not really changed or isn't yet solidified but I would like to know please.
 
Though i personally wouldn't be surprised if the next improvement we're getting out of maining blackbirds is a big one, and so this round's "additional effects" were "set up for big improvement next time". ...Or it could just be that we've done enough blackbirds that we don't have any more "additional effects" at this tech/societal/etc level?
My head canon was that we didn't have the right situation to see the upgrade. Maybe it's an assassination or restore order effect.
 
My head canon was that we didn't have the right situation to see the upgrade. Maybe it's an assassination or restore order effect.
I mean, if so i'd have imagined AN's response to my question to have been "you'll see the effects if and when they're relevant" or "mostly just narrative" or something?
 
So far as I can see (for a target of maximizing econ) these are equally efficient at best. At worst, the provinces might decide to do case 1 on balanced, which would be bad for that target.

So if (like me) you just want a pile of econ and econ slots out of these actions, Case 3 is best.
Well, there is potential for example 4 as well. That's taking [secondary] balanced policy; and the provinces take a [main] expand economy and the law activates it making it a double main. Then the provinces have an additional 2 secondary actions to spend however they want.
 
I swing pretty heavily conservative in times like this. I'd way rather have that 4 econ and 1 martial than a couple study actions this turn.
sailing mission through the northern rivers to check up on the nomads

+

trade mission to the MW

or making the settlement a main to get a mysticism point, which we'll need if we plan on doing the census within the next couple of turns, considering that the library will only refund 1 of the 2 points spent per megaproject action or less, if it's per existence of expenditure in a turn rather than per expenditure in a turn.
 
Well, not my ideal vote but a hell of a lot better than what was winning.

I'm worried about massively expanding our black soil production with a king from the Stallion Tribes in charge (home of the "not quite slave" half exiles) but not spreading the value will help a ton there.

Too bad we're not getting the census, it's ridiculously useful. Just look at Rome's. Still, it's not a crucial thing so no big deal.
 
-Specialists - Chariots, Blackbirds and Carrion Eaters. These elite troops give us a very high force concentration and shock effect, but losses are felt disproportionately and are difficult to split forces. When Chariots take losses, you can easily lose 4 Martial at a go. However, thanks to the Library, we can generate Blackbirds indefinitely for free if we wanted to use an army made completely out of ninjas for some reason, which greatly relieves the issue of using elite units for military.
-Levies - Shieldwalls and archer banks. These are our 'common' farmer-warriors, derived from our Econ. At large numbers, they are high in defense and can cover large amounts of terrain.
You forgot the non-elite specialists and mislabelled the elite specialists as simply 'specialists'. Non-elite specialists are the generic warriors we get from Expand Warriors. They're not elite because they don't require hereditary/spiritual training to work, but their entire job is being warriors, unlike the levies whose primary job is farming.

Elite specialist: 1 Econ for 2 Martial
Non-elite specialist: 1 Econ for 1 Martial
Levy: 3 Econ for 1 Martial
 
[X] [Value] Spread value (+Hero Generation)
[X] [Main] The Census
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] New Settlement - south-eastern Redhills
 
But i think Jaguar Warrior is the most probable thing or a mish-mash of them, because atlatl are really, really nasty things.
A spear-thrower or atlatl (/ˈɑːt.lɑːtəl/[1]​ /ˈæt.lætəl/; Nahuatl: ahtlatlNahuatl pronunciation: [ˈaʔt͡ɬat͡ɬ]) is a tool that uses leverage to achieve greater velocity in dart-throwing, and includes a bearing surface which allows the user to store energy during the throw.

idk how likely it is that we'll develop a new ranged technique rather than heavier armor to provide a solid core. We have compound bows, which would seem to be superior to throwing spears.
 
I'm worried about massively expanding our black soil production with a king from the Stallion Tribes in charge (home of the "not quite slave" half exiles) but not spreading the value will help a ton there.
Was it the stallion tribes that was the worst in "not quite slave" half exile? i'd remembered it being the northern provinces that were actually provinces, moreso than the march, cause it was because of 1. less prosperity leading to pressure on the kings to avoid implementing shit-duty rotations, and 2. influx of lowland refugees to less populated provinces, whereas the nomad population influx to the ST i dont think would have as much focus on slavery...they were big on martial might and family ties, more than slavery, i thought?
 
Was it the stallion tribes that was the worst in "not quite slave" half exile? i'd remembered it being the northern provinces that were actually provinces, moreso than the march, cause it was because of 1. less prosperity leading to pressure on the kings to avoid implementing shit-duty rotations, and 2. influx of lowland refugees to less populated provinces, whereas the nomad population influx to the ST i dont think would have as much focus on slavery...they were big on martial might and family ties, more than slavery, i thought?
Your logic seems correct to me.

Most of the immigrants to the ST would have been nomadic, and the original leadership was largely nomadic in origin. The ST is thus not the worst in half-exile status, but is assuredly the worst in patriarchy.
 
A spear-thrower or atlatl (/ˈɑːt.lɑːtəl/[1]​ /ˈæt.lætəl/; Nahuatl: ahtlatlNahuatl pronunciation: [ˈaʔt͡ɬat͡ɬ]) is a tool that uses leverage to achieve greater velocity in dart-throwing, and includes a bearing surface which allows the user to store energy during the throw.

idk how likely it is that we'll develop a new ranged technique rather than heavier armor to provide a solid core. We have compound bows, which would seem to be superior to throwing spears.

Atlatl History and Physics

Because the atlatl is essentially a lever that doubles the length of the thrower's arm, it can easily deliver 200 times as much power and 6 times the range as a dart thrown like a traditional spear. Even with the increased mass of a normal spear, the atlatl-thrown dart clearly outpowers the spear. A 5 oz dart can be thrown at 100 mph and have as much impact as an arrow fired from a 60 lb compound bow.

This is Nasty, if anyone can do the calculus you will see that in a battle, this shiny is more dangerous than a arrow.
 
Your logic seems correct to me.

Most of the immigrants to the ST would have been nomadic, and the original leadership was largely nomadic in origin. The ST is thus not the worst in half-exile status, but is assuredly the worst in patriarchy.
The patriarchy bit is worse not because of the "nomadic in origin" part, the nomads are if anything relatively egalitarian compared even to us at this point. Its the "nomadic tribes whose male population we eradicated in origin" part :p
Here's some of the more important quotes on half-exiles and on the ST, including the source for what i just said:

They're all technically criminals, but if a popular chief has it out for you, there are a number of remarkably petty ways of getting someone to be a half-exile, especially if keeping the popular people from having to do a rotation on shit work is a priority for the chief.

Ehhh... it depends. In some villages ending up on half-exile duty as a young adult is almost considered a right of passage in that its primarily used as a means of teaching hot headed youth some humility, with the only primary shame being if you're a half-exile well into adulthood. In other villages, being a half-exile is a semi-hereditary position as while the children of half-exiles are not supposed to be also half-exiles, they have very few political connections so if the chief needs someone to do crap work on a long term basis it's trivially easy to find 'bad apples among the trash'. However, unless they basically pick a fight with the local leadership, it is much harder to go from half-exile to full exile, as the chiefs who are the most abusive will often ignore a certain amount of misbehavior that would get people kicked out elsewhere so that they can both keep the half-exiles working in perpetuity and avoid having to distribute shit work to anyone with political pull. It's actually easier to go from half-exile to dead than to full exile in most places, as execution is used for things like murder or egregiously violent sexual assault where its much harder to sweep under the rug in small communities.

There have been a few female chiefs since Gwygoytha, and you can even think of some of the 'kings' as actually being female, but gender norms are starting to solidify and tilt the relatively small physical advantages of men into compounding social advantages. The People are still quite egalitarian in comparison to most of their neighbours, but noticeably less so than in generations past.

They tend not to know, in that the families that the higher level chiefs are drawn from tend to avoid ever being half-exiles at all via both connections and attitude ("Oh, little Ymmy was just a bit over enthusiastic, I don't think we need anything other than a slap on the wrist to solve this" and "Keep your nose clean son or you'll club your own chances at being king one day!"), and the king very rarely interacts with half-exiles at all.

Valleyhome is the least slavey about their half-exiles, and it is a very stable and prosperous province. Redshore and Sacred Forest are also fairly good about it. Stonepen and Northshore have populations that were absorbed from elsewhere and were the least settled over the past couple of refugee waves, so received large populations of outsiders. The Stallion Tribes only don't take slaves because their leadership strictly adheres to the law, but they tend to force assimilation via annihilation of adult male populations first, with the male children of the newcomers often being labelled troublemakers. They, incidentally, have the weirdest gender balance since while their women come from more naturally egalitarian nomad tribes, their gender balance is by far the worst due to endemic murder of male from outside tribes (admittedly, they start it, but hooooo boy do the leaders take advantage of it). Polygamy is something that happens within the People, especially traders making ties with outsiders, but it is endemic among the Stallion Tribes to a degree unheard of elsewhere within the People.

Ah, but that's the thing: the kids aren't half-exiles, it's just that its extremely easy to recast them as half-exiles once they reach adulthood if the local authorities decide that they want to do that. Because they often aren't treated particularly fairly, all the chiefs need is to get them to lash out once when they're young adults (like that's uncommon) and then hit them harder with punishments than is entirely necessary or even recommended.

There's basically a lot of stuff that is made to work most of the time, but that also has a malicious usage that not only has immediate consequences, but also has long term compounding effects. Like, thus far the People have managed to avoid some of the worst effects of polygamy both because a man having more than two or three wives is almost unheard of, and even two wives is quite rare and mostly among the most politically active classes for the purposes of securing alliances. Communal property has helped a lot by not producing an unreasonable number of heirs to divide property and create conflict points, but the Stallion Tribes are honestly going to be the nucleation point for a number of social problems as they are the spearpoint of interaction between the People and other cultures. The People don't really do any wife stealing, but their relative strength, success and theories of war and justice means that they tend to end up with a population lacking most of its adult males in need of resettlement, and the social structures to support large numbers of children as a group, so there is an obvious combination of good traits leading towards a long term disaster.

Since it would be an in-universe concern, the next few kings may wish to figure out how to integrate the March sooner rather than later. *cough**cough* Admittedly, figuring out how to do that is one of those flailing in the dark things currently.

So it looks like the Stallion tribes, as of those quotes, was both better and worse on half exile? It sounds like they've got a constant influx of new marginalized population, whom they crack down on just like most of the other provinces (especially northshore and stonepen at the time) do...but then probably their kids are fine, or at least better off. So it sounds like so long as they have nomads to kill, leaving women and children to take in, they are really unequal in their half-exile targetting, but also less likely to make it hereditary? It's almost like an extension of how half-exile is supposed to work in the best case. In Valleyhome, its used mainly to get hot-headed teenagers to cool down and learn some patience and manners and spiritual etiquette, and rarely visited upon grown adults. Its a coming of age deal. In the Stallion tribes, its that for every new generation of nomadic influx children, writ large. ...Assuming i'm interpreting @Academia Nut right, and things haven't changed of course :p
 
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