AN said we avoided many civil wars specifically because we didn't give nobles personal armies. With taking Centralisation to 1, the additional effects, and the negative stability, this is a very bad option to pick. It will not evolve Quality of Its Own, it'll just give nobles personal armies and, since it includes Expand Economy, might give them even more than that. You absolutely must look at this option as more than just a way to free up more Centralisation for trails.


No, it might actually evolve it. If we're going to evolve by doing military-related stuff, the WoG (via the king) said that's best way to do it.

...Or rather, what was said was "double-main Expand warriors". And also that that action is "Double-main expand warriors with a Main Expand Economy to pay for it", taking three Main actions. The centralization drop is because to do 3 Main actions in one move like this, a lot of the stuff has to be delegated. We're not jumping straight to "nobles have personal armies", we'd just be. Toeing the line a bit. As one would expect of a king who's not good at admin.

Though yeah, I'm against dropping centralization too, personally.
 
Oh yes, expect war next turn or possibly the turn after if they stall on the Highlanders. The Hathatyn have a reconquest casus belli on Hatriver and a good chunk of Southshore and pretty much have to use it or risk losing legitimacy and stability.
Guys! Center! Center, Center, Center! If we can turn the hordes away from linking up, we can bounce half of them around our very well defended territory and toss them into the Hathatyn/Highlander war! Sure, the West horde may get bronze, but if we can tie that whole mess up for a turn, we can focus the west horde into the ground then ship our warriors right into the main war and just kill everybody!

[X] [Recruit] Smaller recruitment (+3 Martial, potential additional effects)
[X] [Library] Free Study Metal (Guaranteed breakthrough)
[X] [Strategy] Hold the center
[X] [Boats] Increase size while maintaining portability
 
It doesn't help that we only got word that we shouldn't half ass the southeast gambit until relatively recently. Probably a lot of the people who voted for that would change their vote if they knew but the thread moves very fast and some are probably asleep now.
To be fair to AN, it was blatantly obvious that the riskiest strategy was going to require the heaviest investment to have a decent chance at success. I guess he just overestimated us.
 
I don't think it's all that likely we will see immediate government change, and frankly we're almost certainly going to Offense policy next turn which means three main war actions so the action cost of enforce justice and new trails is not such a big deal especially considering their other effects of improved stab and better roads.
While i'd agree if it was just dropping to centralization, the other aspects of the drop make it seem more likely to shift our government. If it isn't immediate, it would likely cause a midturn crisis where we have to deal with a province or 2 going against the king. This would mean we either devote resources to squashing them (acting as an EJ most likely), compromise (changing our government to something bad, but not terrible), or ignore them (changing our government to possibly Feudal-style).
 
Guys! Center! Center, Center, Center! If we can turn the hordes away from linking up, we can bounce half of them around our very well defended territory and toss them into the Hathatyn/Highlander war! Sure, the West horde may get bronze, but if we can tie that whole mess up for a turn, we can focus the west horde into the ground then ship our warriors right into the main war and just kill everybody!

[X] [Recruit] Smaller recruitment (+3 Martial, potential additional effects)
[X] [Library] Free Study Metal (Guaranteed breakthrough)
[X] [Strategy] Hold the center
[X] [Boats] Increase size while maintaining portability
Errr, the "bounce around our well defended territory" option is the south-east one, considering i'm pretty sure thats the only actual pass down into the lowlands that doesn't involve directly going through us...
 
[X] [Recruit] Smaller recruitment (+3 Martial, potential additional effects)
[X] [Library] Evolve a random value other than Love of Wisdom
[X] [Strategy] Hold the center
[X] [Boats] Increase size while maintaining portability
[X] [Strategy] Relieve the west
 
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You'd put it off that far in the future? Glassware's right to worry.
it seems optimal, and I'd like to stay in progress more than one turn in a row.
It doesn't help that we only got word that we shouldn't half ass the southeast gambit until relatively recently. Probably a lot of the people who voted for that would change their vote if they knew but the thread moves very fast and some are probably asleep now.
imo, it was obvious from the canonical text
 
Guys! Center! Center, Center, Center! If we can turn the hordes away from linking up, we can bounce half of them around our very well defended territory and toss them into the Hathatyn/Highlander war! Sure, the West horde may get bronze, but if we can tie that whole mess up for a turn, we can focus the west horde into the ground then ship our warriors right into the main war and just kill everybody!

...I don't think that works geographically at all.
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by hylas240 on Jun 10, 2017 at 10:19 PM, finished with 51608 posts and 97 votes.
 
It doesn't help that we only got word that we shouldn't half ass the southeast gambit until relatively recently. Probably a lot of the people who voted for that would change their vote if they knew but the thread moves very fast and some are probably asleep now.
To be fair to AN, it was blatantly obvious that the riskiest strategy was going to require the heaviest investment to have a decent chance at success. I guess he just overestimated us.
imo, it was obvious from the canonical text
*twitch* It was fucking common sense!
 
[X] [Recruit] Mass recruitment (+6 Martial, -2 Econ, -2 Econ Expansion, -2 Centralization, additional effects)
[X] [Strategy] Drive them south-east
[X] [Library] Evolve a random value other than Love of Wisdom
[X] [Boats] Increase size while maintaining portability
 
[X] [Recruit] Smaller recruitment (+3 Martial, potential additional effects)
[X] [Library] Free Study Metal (Guaranteed breakthrough)
[X] [Strategy] Relieve the west
[X] [Boats] Increase size while maintaining portability
 
[X] [Recruit] Mass recruitment (+6 Martial, -2 Econ, -2 Econ Expansion, -2 Centralization, additional effects)
[X] [Strategy] Drive them south-east
[X] [Library] Evolve a random value other than Love of Wisdom
[X] [Boats] Increase size while maintaining portability
 
The relieving Metal Worker option does benefit from our attempt to help them sealing the hell gate last turn. You wouldn't believe how paranoid people are when they hear free help.

Still, Hath being uppity is concerning.
 
Errr, the "bounce around our well defended territory" option is the south-east one, considering I'm pretty sure that's the only actual pass down into the lowlands that doesn't involve directly going through us...
No, the horde has to go somewhere when they can't link back up with the rest of their people. They aren't going to want to go through our territory; they'd get squeezed into unfriendly terrain and slaughtered. They aren't going to want to attack the suddenly extremely well defended Thunder Xoh either. The only thing they can do is follow the mountains through the Lowlands until they find a softer target I.E. the distracted and weak Highlander/Hatathyn valleys. Since we took the stuff closer to the coast, our land should be the last to be attacked and the first to be reinforced with the extra warriors once we mop up the Western horde.

...I don't think that works geographically at all.
It does though. Look at the map and try to imagine the most recent changes to it. They'll come down through the passes to avoid us, flooding into the Lowlands. They might break east for a bit, but they'll run into Xoh defensive lines that way and bounce off them too. After that, their only choices are to A) run back to the plains, which I don't think they can do with a WAAGH on, B) try to assault us on our home territory, which is terribly uninviting for a mobile cavalry force, or C) attack the weakened forces at the conflict point where the Highlanders and Hatathyn will be fighting.
 
The relieving Metal Worker option does benefit from our attempt to help them sealing the hell gate last turn. You wouldn't believe how paranoid people are when they hear free help.

Still, Hath being uppity is concerning.
They don't have a lot to throw our way. AN said that if they stall out on the HK, then they will go for us. But if they are stalling out then that obviously means they are suffering losses of some kind and have no momentum. Switching to attack us from that position is a... poor tactical choice? Yeah I'll go with that. They could make gains against us, but it will hurt, see our K/D with the HK a couple of turns ago, and that just leaves them bent over for the HK.

So if it does happen, because if they stall out AN says they basically have to use the reconquer causus beli, we can write them off since they are gonna die in the following turns from HK butt fucking.

Least that's what I think.
 
Look at the map and try to imagine the most recent changes to it. They'll come down through the passes to avoid us, flooding into the Lowlands. They might break east for a bit, but they'll run into Xoh defensive lines that way and bounce off them too.
You know, at times like these when I feel that we need to commission a fantasy cartographer/map maker to properly accentuate what the region looks like in detail. Wouldn't that be clear up a lot of confusion regarding mapping?
 
It does though. Look at the map and try to imagine the most recent changes to it. They'll come down through the passes to avoid us, flooding into the Lowlands. They might break east for a bit, but they'll run into Xoh defensive lines that way and bounce off them too. After that, their only choices are to A) run back to the plains, which I don't think they can do with a WAAGH on, B) try to assault us on our home territory, which is terribly uninviting for a mobile cavalry force, or C) attack the weakened forces at the conflict point where the Highlanders and Hatathyn will be fighting.
So they would have to slip between the HK on the west and the Xoh on the east, go south, then west to skirt around the HK, then go north-northwest around the mountains to bum rush the Hat vs HK conflict point.

Seems messy. I'd find it more feasible that they just bounce between the HK and the Xoh in that little gap between their borders.
 
They don't have a lot to throw our way. AN said that if they stall out on the HK, then they will go for us. But if they are stalling out then that obviously means they are suffering losses of some kind and have no momentum. Switching to attack us from that position is a... poor tactical choice? Yeah I'll go with that. They could make gains against us, but it will hurt, see our K/D with the HK a couple of turns ago, and that just leaves them bent over for the HK.

So if it does happen, because if they stall out AN says they basically have to use the reconquer causus beli, we can write them off since they are gonna die in the following turns from HK butt fucking.

Least that's what I think.
Unless we take advantage of the entirely unprovoked defensive war to take some more of their territory of course. As recompense for their vicious surprise attack on their best friends who only have their people's best interests at heart.
 
You know, at times like these when I feel that we need to commission a fantasy cartographer/map maker to properly accentuate what the region looks like in detail. Wouldn't that be clear up a lot of confusion regarding mapping?
Here is my poor mans attempt which AN called broad strokes accurate.



Unless we take advantage of the entirely unprovoked defensive war to take some more of their territory of course. As recompense for their vicious surprise attack on their best friends who only had their people's best interests at heart.
Heheheh I like the way you think. They will be really dead in that case as they get double teamed.

We are nice vampires! We were halping!

*snicker*
 
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The big cost for Study actions has always been the action, not any other part of the price. We're not likely to be doing study actions anytime soon, even with the Library.

On a different subject, we're currently setting ourselves up to try to force the gambit without the military to back it up - the small military boost is almost locked in, and it's not likely to be enough for something fancy.
Shockingly, most of the thread fails to consider options in aggregate as a plan when there's anything vaguely complex happening. Who knew?
Well, we're not allowed to vote by plan, right? This stuff happens when you have 90+ people voting for what they individually like the best.
Guys! Center! Center, Center, Center! If we can turn the hordes away from linking up, we can bounce half of them around our very well defended territory and toss them into the Hathatyn/Highlander war! Sure, the West horde may get bronze, but if we can tie that whole mess up for a turn, we can focus the west horde into the ground then ship our warriors right into the main war and just kill everybody!

[X] [Recruit] Smaller recruitment (+3 Martial, potential additional effects)
[X] [Library] Free Study Metal (Guaranteed breakthrough)
[X] [Strategy] Hold the center
[X] [Boats] Increase size while maintaining portability
That would involve allowing a nomad horde to blow through our entire nation on the way to Hathatyn.
 
No, the horde has to go somewhere when they can't link back up with the rest of their people. They aren't going to want to go through our territory; they'd get squeezed into unfriendly terrain and slaughtered. They aren't going to want to attack the suddenly extremely well defended Thunder Xoh either. The only thing they can do is follow the mountains through the Lowlands until they find a softer target I.E. the distracted and weak Highlander/Hatathyn valleys. Since we took the stuff closer to the coast, our land should be the last to be attacked and the first to be reinforced with the extra warriors once we mop up the Western horde.


It does though. Look at the map and try to imagine the most recent changes to it. They'll come down through the passes to avoid us, flooding into the Lowlands. They might break east for a bit, but they'll run into Xoh defensive lines that way and bounce off them too. After that, their only choices are to A) run back to the plains, which I don't think they can do with a WAAGH on, B) try to assault us on our home territory, which is terribly uninviting for a mobile cavalry force, or C) attack the weakened forces at the conflict point where the Highlanders and Hatathyn will be fighting.
...If there were an easy (and attractive) pass or passes to the lowland, why the hell wouldn't our martial hero have come up with this plan? I'm pretty sure those mountains are more or less impassible...hence the whole bit about there being a specific pass through the mountains in the TS territory?
 
You guys have never even discovered the negative centralization governments that most of your neighbours run on for much of their lifespans. Going much lower will force a shift, but Centralization 1 won't automatically blow up your government.
Well, I thought that was obvious. 1 is only Yellow, so it'd be a problem only if we stay there for a while.

It's strange people assume study metal would give steel or iron alloy when it's more likely to give smelted tin or lead.

Edit: i totally meant lead.
We already have lead smelting btw it's not listed as a material because it's basically useless.
And Tin smelting is more advanced than steel.

It typically doesn't, but better administrators can typically deal with very high or very low centralization issues more adeptly. High centralization with a really bad leader is probably the worst of all worlds because the state will do stupid things more efficiently.
So basically we don't want to redline Centralization at high, but low is more annoying than dangerous.
Only change is the HK officially getting added to the list of tin importers.
That should be the HK being Internal rather than Importers I think?
That's not how i read it. We can lose yeomen, people who farm.
We can't, because there aren't any Yeomen when Econ is below 3.
Theres no spare farmers
This is double main warriors with a main expand econ to pay for it. To get the equivalent of three main actions, you have to delegate.
And here, we have confirmation that this is what it'd take to evolve Quality of it's Own.
3.) They have been driven off, some of the remnants have joined you
4.) Western Wall took a minor martial hit, Stallion Tribe has lost significant forces and needs reinforcement (which any of the options would do, albeit some better than others).
3) Dang, didn't last long huh?
4) @Academia Nut what's the Stallion Tribes current martial score anyway?


You know I just had a thought but why hasn't a big nomad Waagh!! hit the Thunder Horses dead on like do we have some special trait that makes nomad Waagh!!s targeted at us or are we just plain unlucky to be the main foucus of all ones we know of?
We have the biggest open border with Nomads, such that we're in direct contact with two separate nomad groups, and in indirect contact with a third. So we get hit by more of them, while Cosmopolitan Acceptance makes us look weak enough for every generation to think they can take us.

Go west
Pro: We crush the Western Horde attacking the MW with high likely hood, preventing them gaining a metal supply. Or we drive them off with losses, preventing them gaining a metal supply. We are likely only doing 1 v 1 with Heroes. Portable + size helps here more than pure size by Word of AN.
Con: We have to get in and get out quickly. Our east is weakened, and we have no NE March, and the Eastern Nomads got mulched. This is what I would rate as an easily exploited vulnerability.
Neutral: The other half of the horde will be poking the TS and so on. This will distract the Xoh to some degree. More speed focused designs may help more.
Something the Heroic Martial king didn't mention, but the Thunder Speakers also have metal, so they're getting metal no matter what we do.

The south-east strategy should probably not be tried without heavy recruitment.
I thought that was obvious...
He will attempt to prod, cajole, and entice them to get swinging towards the south-east, and then provide a hard barrier of battle to get them to decide to focus upon the Thunder Speakers instead, with the hope that they will discover the pass and keep going.

Kill nomads in the west. Larger boats means that more warriors can be transported, and they can use the rivers to go north in force and thus begin pressuring the nomads from unexpected angles. The boats are useful for this in all strategies.

Oh yes, expect war next turn or possibly the turn after if they stall on the Highlanders. The Hathatyn have a reconquest casus belli on Hatriver and a good chunk of Southshore and pretty much have to use it or risk losing legitimacy and stability.
Hmm, so that means if we don't send the Nomads southeast successfully, we're likely to be facing a two front war?
I mean, the update does specifically mention that that option would spread us thin and have our hero emphasize "if he got more warriors"

Your vote is borked...also, did you mean to do size+portable? Your bit here:

certainly suggests it...
Copy paste buggery. Fixed
Now we will see if the veekiewagon can overcome a 50-vote lead...
Worth trying.
Current possible combos:
-West + Medium recruitment - We will be fighting a two front war next turn from the Hats and the Eastern Horde. Both with Heroic leaders

-Southeast + Massive recruitment - We will have a breather turn and time for the Heroes to die off, but would be slightly more vulnerable to events while we build the roads we need.

-Southeast + Medium recruitment - Disaster waiting to happen.



Guys! Center! Center, Center, Center! If we can turn the hordes away from linking up, we can bounce half of them around our very well defended territory and toss them into the Hathatyn/Highlander war! Sure, the West horde may get bronze, but if we can tie that whole mess up for a turn, we can focus the west horde into the ground then ship our warriors right into the main war and just kill everybody!
That's physically impossible unless we gift the Nomads boats.
 
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