Omegahugger
Inattentive Idiot
I think a proper reaction is temples everywhere.
We need one for every single Spirit! Yes, including the literally poopy ones!
We need one for every single Spirit! Yes, including the literally poopy ones!
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
And because I'm crazy, have a link to a google spreadsheet you can copy to mess around with to see how the various stability options compare. As mentioned, Festival is now our most efficient option that isn't Enforce.
If we drop the cost of art down to 0.5 (likely obtained via overflow) then the [Main] RO + [Main] PG is approximately equal to the Festival.
Also, Enforce Justice is freaking amazing. The stability drops from red Centralization might even be worth it considering how much cheaper it is than the alternatives...
If we drop the cost of art down to 0.5 (likely obtained via overflow) then the [Main] RO + [Main] PG is approximately equal to the Festival.
Also, Enforce Justice is freaking amazing. The stability drops from red Centralization might even be worth it considering how much cheaper it is than the alternatives...
The issue is that the Temples do not seem to return Mysticism. It might be that they could act like Mysticism Salterns, but as is, building Temples will only increase Religious Authority, not Mysticism anymore.
Pretty easy to take advantage of Iron really:
-Invest into megaprojects. We've shit out a pair of megaprojects in basically three turns...without stopping to expand economy.
--Remaining urgent megaproject is probably the Palace, for visible problem solving Megaproject.
--Remaining opportunistic megaprojects are...there. We could probably do one every 3-4 turns without breaking a sweat due to the massive Diplomacy overflows. Basically, start a megaproject every time we max all the values out.
-Invest into facilities. Sit on Balanced and pursue Stat Accumulation. Basically, the windup for a rush build phase. Switch out once 2-3 stats are maxed out. This basically sets up overflow cascades so we can subsist off the trade income overflowing.
--New Trails is best done on Balanced
--Glassworks is best done on Balanced
--Docks is best done on Balanced
--Vineyard is best done on Balanced
--Snails is best done on Balanced
--Forest is best done on Balanced
--Festival/Proclaim Glory is best done on Balanced
-Invest into fortifications. Switch to Defense and burn through accumulated Economy building walls and towers to 100% coverage. Note that this is very expensive, so it should be alternated with Megaproject phases.
-Invest into Extended Projects. Switch to Spirits or Infrastructure to expensively churn them out, then switch back to Balanced to refuel.
--Salterns are currently peaked. Adding another won't do much.
--Aqueducts support additional cities, and we probably want that soon.
--Temples boost religious authority, so there's probably a shiny around either a high level Great Temple or having multiple major holy sites.
So I'm thinking something like:
-Balanced -> New Trails + Golden Age Stability boosters
-Megaproject - Palace during Golden Age
-Balanced -> Whatever floats your boats
-Defense - Walls walls. Get the tower coverage to 100% and the light walls too while we main expand economy and crisis.
-Balanced -> Trade power!
-Infrastructure - City ups!
etc
I think we should try to build an additional temple quickly so we can rescue the smug wife goddess of "hoping the king doesnt fuck up" from being turned into some boring old man.
Technically Temples should give at least one mysticism. That's the Canal, though, and applies to other things.
Honestly, even if it is 'just' religious authority, religious authority is kinda worth it. Keep in mind the far east seems to have tamed the locals via religious authority.
You've also written off a lot of things here, starting with policies.
Progress gives us large numbers of scientific advances and prestige bonuses.
We have a literal trade policy, why would we use balanced if we're doing trade power?
You've become too obsessed with balance policy I think. Especially as long as we can keep the baby boom going.
Actually Torture just gives whatever information the subject thinks the torturer wants to hear.
Bribery is much more effective^^
- Location
- Source of confusion itself.
[X] [Main] More Blackbirds
[X] [Secondary] War Mission - Northern Nomads
[X] [Secondary] War Mission - Northern Nomads x2
Personal Megaproject list
1)Grand Palace
2)Great Dam
-more Aquaducts
3)The Mountain
4)Place to the stars
I still want to build the idea I had.
@DragonParadox
Torture is nearly useless to get information. No it does not matter how good the torturer is. People lie, to make the pain go away and only we have the idea to test things.
But even if it was. How to find it via survey, how to mine it and how to work it are three different techs.
People who are settled and have basic writing would have trouble stealing it. These are nomads. If they settle they aren't nomads and become a target we can attack. They don't have farming or walls, so they will start starving and will be unprotected before we attack.
[X] [Secondary] War Mission - Northern Nomads
[X] [Secondary] War Mission - Northern Nomads x2
Personal Megaproject list
1)Grand Palace
2)Great Dam
-more Aquaducts
3)The Mountain
4)Place to the stars
I still want to build the idea I had.
@DragonParadox
Torture is nearly useless to get information. No it does not matter how good the torturer is. People lie, to make the pain go away and only we have the idea to test things.
But even if it was. How to find it via survey, how to mine it and how to work it are three different techs.
People who are settled and have basic writing would have trouble stealing it. These are nomads. If they settle they aren't nomads and become a target we can attack. They don't have farming or walls, so they will start starving and will be unprotected before we attack.
maximillian
Civilised Sheep
- Location
- Ranch
If by fantastic you mean chopping up its dick and measuring the fragments and then the fragments are burning each other to establish who's the biggest dick Shard. Then yes it was doing fantastic before the crusades. And if by doing well you mean total stagnation and regression and building up societal collapse, then yes it did quite well after.
maximillian
Civilised Sheep
- Location
- Ranch
Most conflicts in the area are were not religious in nature. Not quite anyway, a thousand myriad factors brought wars. A purely religious conflict in the middle east is a Fantastically rare thing, historically at least. Whilst religiously worded wars and holy wars occurred, and are still occurring, the middle east has most often had wars of tribes, wars of conquest, and wars of suppression.
The idea that people have been killing for purely religion there since time immemorial is simplistic, reductionist and naive in the extreme.
The sheer cultural diversity of the region guaranteed a massive variety of causes for war.
Am not saying the middle east, be it the Islamic era or earlier was was rainbows and sunshine. The dominant cultures of the area where vicious, bloodthirsty and vindictive, wars of total annihilation were common, cruelty was a virtue and so on. Nor am I saying there wasn't religious conflict, hell more people died of sectarian conflict in the Islamic "golden age" than any period after(and it's damn hard to accurately define where politics and the personal began and the religious ended) . But they died just as much by the Tribal wars and the power plays of the elites, or the desire for conquest.
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When trying to establish guilt yes, not extracting verifiable information like: how do you smelt iron from ore.
Won't know till we build it.
Study actions also cost Mysticism, which we currently don't have a means of rebuilding easily with Holy Site down. It's usually not something we'd set all the provinces to unless we had a particular research objective.
Read the actions there.
Trade Policies will produce luxuries, meaning it'd build Art, Glassworks and Vineyards.
But Trade Power there refers to building Docks, Roads and Boats to improve our ability to trade rather than improving luxury production. The only Policy which builds those is Balanced.
Baby Boom is useful, but expenses rapidly outstrip the Baby Boom at present. It's convenient for shortening Balanced recharge phases.
I mean, take a look at the expenditure of the various policies:
-Balanced - +4 Econ per turn, will take 4 other actions which spend 3 to 5 Econ or so each turn. Will reliably generate multi-stat overflow to have a safety buffer and to enter Golden Ages with a Baby Boom. Is capable of taking actions which create Expansion slots or slot-free Econ like More Boats and Black Soil.
-Defence - Spends 1 Main and 4 Secondary actions. Cheapest combo is Main Towers x3, which costs 3 Econ for 30% tower coverage, generating 3 Econ Expansions. Most expensive combo is Main Walls x3, which costs 6 Econ for +15% Significant walls, generating 3 Econ Expansions. This basically means you must Main Expand Economy to keep up with expenses or run out in 2 turns..
-Infrastructure/Spirits - Spends 6 Extended Project actions, which costs 12 Econ in one turn to finish two Aqueducts at one go. Impressive, but expensive as hell. This basically means you must Main Expand Economy to avoid an Econ Crash. We almost never need to stay in this policy for more than 1 turn.
-Megaproject - Spends 3 Main actions. Spending about 3 Econ each for the most part. Not really onerous, but the problem is that we can't switch out for 2-3 turns, so we need to make sure we have enough budget and swing to clear the final stretch if things catch fire.
-Trade - Very economical, as Trade Missions are Diplo-Neutral, and Salt Gifts are overflow reactors, while luxury production is cheap(Glassworks Econ 1, Vineyard Econ 1(but eats Expansions).
So preferring Balanced is definitely a thing, but it's not a blind preference. It's just that because our policies hadn't updated to account for new technology(maybe the Palace will do so?) they are building outdated facilities for the most part.
Noting that my 'wargoal' for this sequence is:
-Build the Palace during a Golden Age.
--Golden Age is most easily entered in Balanced without Baby Boom, or Trade with Baby Boom so @bluefur87 thanks for making me examine this in detail.
---Without Baby Boom, Balanced will generate 4 Econ and eat up 4 slots, which we, and the provinces will use up 4 Econ and generate 4 slots, while growing other stats. This pays for the Art expenses of Proclaim Glory to hit Stability 3, then max out stats in the next turn.
----Main Restore Order, Secondary Balanced Policy, Secondary Build Wall or More Boats to churn expansions.
-----Then Main Proclaim Glory, Main Palace. Provinces max out the stats for us to hit Golden Age.
---With Baby Boom, we can simply take Trade Policy, to churn the 4 Econ into Glassworks and Vineyards for Trade Dominance,
----Main Restore Order, Secondary Trade Policy
-----Then Main Proclaim Glory, Main Palace. Provinces max out the stats for us to hit Golden Age via gigantic Art/Diplo overflows.
-Fix the road network. Largely agnostic about what policy we're on as long as we don't go Expansion and make it worse. The provinces won't do roads for us since they don't touch Centralization, but Main New Trails are cheap.
-Get Watchtowers to 100%. Best done on Defense Policy(2 turns to completion if focused). Negative progress on Expansion policy.
-Get Light Walls to 100%. Best done on Defense Policy(2 turns to completion if focused. Negative progress on Expansion policy. I can probably get the thread in on this.
--Get Significant Walls to 100%. Best done on Defense Policy(4 turns to completion, but costly). I doubt I can interest the thread in this, and won't try particularly hard.
-Get Aqueducts and Temples in at least 2 more cities. This WILL require switching to Balanced or Expansion for a turn between Infrastructure Policy to generate enough Econ to do it.
Less than half consume mysticism, one produces it.
It also includes art patronage.
I would be genuinely surprised if it didn't include boats and/or docks as means of increasing trade power. That falls too heavily under it's intention.
I much more suspect AN simply didn't update it.
You say this, yet.
You do realize that trade would rapidly cause immense overflow, while generating econ slots, right? Especially with diplo income.
Salt Gift as a Main likely generates more stats than it looses most of the time, ignoring prestige, making it effectively just a 'I want more stats button.' Trade Missions easily cover this a step further, and can be spammed as secondaries for effectively free. The only reason we're massively outstripping our income with expenses now is because we're on megaproject policy explicitly. Taking any policy that generates more stats than put in, of which trade policy is a major note, would easily push us up to near max stats within a couple turns.
Considering most, if not all of the trade actions generate more stats than they put in and a notable number of desired ones don't even cost econ , it is far more efficient in terms of both cost and return. Even worse for your case is that Balance only mains expand econ using law, which means that 4 econ slots will be filled a turn, in addition to 4 econ slots being filled a turn via baby boom. Either that or we're effectively losing an entire secondary action. Considering that would be 8 Econ slots a turn, it is something that we literally can not keep up.
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pblur
Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn
- Location
- Lawrence's Wagon
I like that plan. Good logistics, reasonably defensible.
Nomads are in a really bad position to actually use that information. They don't have many potters, so kilns will be hard to come by. They don't have a place to build infrastructure, so bloomeries will need built at every stop. And so on.
I'm not worried about nomads getting iron. They're still on copper for good reasons.
Less than half consume mysticism, one produces it.
It also includes art patronage.
I would be genuinely surprised if it didn't include boats and/or docks as means of increasing trade power. That falls too heavily under it's intention.
I much more suspect AN simply didn't update it.
You say this, yet.
You do realize that trade would rapidly cause immense overflow, while generating econ slots, right? Especially with diplo income.
Salt Gift as a Main likely generates more stats than it looses most of the time, ignoring prestige, making it effectively just a 'I want more stats button.' Trade Missions easily cover this a step further, and can be spammed as secondaries for effectively free. The only reason we're massively outstripping our income with expenses now is because we're on megaproject policy explicitly. Taking any policy that generates more stats than put in, of which trade policy is a major note, would easily push us up to near max stats within a couple turns.
Considering all of the trade actions generate more stats than they put in and a notable number of desired ones don't even cost econ , it is far more efficient in terms of both cost and return. Even worse for your case is that Balance only mains expand econ using law, which means that 4 econ slots will be filled a turn, in addition to 4 econ slots being filled a turn via baby boom. Either that or we're effectively losing an entire secondary action. Considering that would be 8 Econ slots a turn, it is something that we literally can not keep up.
See lower part of response. *effort* to go up and redo the rest of a post after a closer examination in a later part when on phone
I didn't think on it a ton, I'm planning on switching off of Megaproject Support after getting the Dam and the Palace.
That being said, the main reason is that Docks are so much cheaper. The required Forests is likely equivalent to the Mysticism investment, so the Docks cost slightly more than half the price of the Place to the Stars.
Either way though, I'd prefer to jump off the Megaproject train after doing 4 in a row and switch to something else- I'm thinking Trade, though our situation is likely to have changed significantly by that time so it's hard to say. This turn(1) we finish the Library. Next turn(2) we get 4 progress on the Dam. The turn after that(3) we start the Palace and finish the Dam. So this'll be 4 turns out to finish 3 megaprojects. We'll be treading water while doing these, and after getting them done we'll likely have a bunch of nice opportunities to take advantage of.
pblur
Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn
- Location
- Lawrence's Wagon
I'm not sure we should do megaprojects now. *Oh forgive me great Crow for not seeking the shiny!* I really want an extra dye production to secure our lead there, and we're likely to need to burn some stats on war.
Hyacinthium
Writing about sad cannibals as we speak.
- Location
- Bedroom
- Pronouns
- He/Him
kinda sad that the library is not in vallyhome =c
We'll have to see. Depending on how the war goes, we might need to switch off. Thanks to our 4 periphery states I think it's very likely that we won't, but crit fails/enemy heroic crit successes are things that we'll need to be able to deal with.
Turns 2 and 3 we'll only have 2 actions available which is a little low but those plus mid-turn actions should be enough to fix any major problems that come up that our provinces can't handle themselves. Especially since the Dam provides bonus Econ and Stability once it's complete since it's Land Management.
pblur
Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn
- Location
- Lawrence's Wagon
Would be nice if the nomads fucked off, and we could improve festival before dam finishes...
- Location
- Mists of Albion
Nomads will probably be an issue until the invention of Gunpowder and the implementation of firearms en mass.
So we have to wait another three millennia until then....
FUN!!!
pblur
Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn
- Location
- Lawrence's Wagon
You misunderstand me. I want this particular waaagh to fuck off next turn so we can festival up to 2 stab, to hit 3 with the stewards boost.
