- Location
- Mists of Albion
Let's hope not we have to focus on the war and our stats are getting massively drained by our constant megaprojects and charity
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
- Location
- Illinois
Huh, you know, if we do give the pilgrims the sacred warding, that will 'prove' to the other groups that our people are protected by the gods. I mean, a plague would hit, and the most devoted of our religions followers, those who came to our lands on a pilgrimage and thus got the sacred warding, would be unharmed by the plague, whereas everyone else would be dying in droves.
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
Sensible.
In which case we would be strongly damaging the TS' pull on the nomads, HK(?), HT (?), and lowlands near us; and moderately affecting the XS' pull on the lowlands near us (they haven't invested much in religion, I think), but not really affecting their pull on the swamp people.
Nomads are probably the easiest target, considering that they're nomadic.
Accessibility is probably a mix of Distance, Disposition (toward us), Closed/Openness (toward borders/travel).
Our religious authority et. al score is probably compared against other significant powers, though this is likely to be true for all trade goods.
We'll have to drug them so they can't learn our secrets.
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We most certainly do not! Our prostitutes are highly trained professionals and expect their due dammit!
- Location
- Mists of Albion
Apparently we already have weed...
Hero's not running next turn, and while I'd agree that the Palace will help with our anti-corruption work, we're going to have to do a lot better in this war coming than I expect we will to make committing all of our actions next turn to a non-war endeavor a good idea.
([main] Palace, and at minimum a [secondary] Expand Economy to pay for it. More likely a [main], because we can lose econ to wars.)
Romv
A Memory of TREES
[X] [Library] Sacred Forest
[X] [Temple] See to the spread of the techniques that went into making this place (+3 art, tech advance)
[X] [Corruption] Deploy force
[X] [Diplo] Send aid to the Metal Workers (-2 Diplo, -2 Econ, -2 Art, -2 Mysticism)
[X] [Policy] No change
[X] [Temple] See to the spread of the techniques that went into making this place (+3 art, tech advance)
[X] [Corruption] Deploy force
[X] [Diplo] Send aid to the Metal Workers (-2 Diplo, -2 Econ, -2 Art, -2 Mysticism)
[X] [Policy] No change
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
Isn't the baby boom still going?
That's what lets a [secondary] Expand Economy even pretend to be enough to try. We're going to spend down to 1 on econ this turn; main+support megaproject is 4 or 5 econ in cost, +1 for keeping the city up.
We could also let province actions get dumped into Expand Economy instead, but then there's very little reason to have stayed on Megaproject Support.
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Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
4 - 1 - 2 (which might have already been paid) = 1 + 4 = 5
but then -2 for the MW mission, of course, so 3.
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
Oh, kk. I doubt the Hero is going to start building a palace. There's too much going on and we didn't choose Enforce Justice. A switch to Balanced upon the completion of the Library is more likely. It rebuilds Econ and allows Study actions to take advantage of the new Library.
E: Or, if it can't get changed (idr how this turn cycle is going to work) will just result in overflow, which might mean small libraries get established elsewhere, or might mean the library is particularly nice.
E: Or, if it can't get changed (idr how this turn cycle is going to work) will just result in overflow, which might mean small libraries get established elsewhere, or might mean the library is particularly nice.
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We know Roads, Portagable Boats, Docks and Trading Posts help with those and geography probably penalizes it.
No need. You're more likely to spread disease than get anything done if you copy the visible part of the ritual which is where a shaman pokes you with a needle after poking a cow.
Thats' the IC reason against sharing, it's outright dangerous if the knowledge drifts.
Well, they pursue excellence like any Ymaryn...but hobbyists can do whatever
I hope so. The current corrupt mess in Valleyhome will repeat itself eventually, and we're going to want records to help spot it and advise Blackbirds on how to root it all out.
[main] Extended Project - Library (Valleyhome) + [main] More Blackbirds might be a decent way to set up a police academy.
- Location
- Mists of Albion
I've given up reading the thread as of post #49575, page 1983... Its just too many stupid for me right now. So many terrible choices bandwagoning (or at least trying to) away all the advantages The People can lose. Lets just analyze the turn before I get salty at the options that may or may not be leading. I'm just gonna go and do my probably/possibly largely ignored post breakdown now.
Turn events:
-Temple came out really good and we got a nifty art bonus from the roof collapse, no complaints here and the main statue is grand.
-Salt gift to the NE picked... results pending...
-Looks like the Stallions did N+NE explore to a lesser degree anyway. Advanced warning of a nomad rush to those general directions (S, SE, and SW) over there...
-HK has decided to open up a separate front to invade to the east. That is a gamble on their part, one or more of the following are expected:
Basically, risky land grab for the HK .... results pending...
-The Civ tumor of Guilds has metastasized officially. Also, someone actually noticed this was happening before it started metastasized to the rest of the Civ. Only took them two generations to do it.
---
On to the options:
Select a bonus
-[Temple] Know that the gods are with us (+1 Stability)
A bland bonus that wouldn't be really worth considering except it can offer a counter to going into burninate mode on the cancer.
-[Temple] See to the spread of the techniques that went into making this place (+3 art, tech advance)
Tech now (which will probably come anyway) using the temple to boost the effects. A solid option. Solid enough its an auto-take for me without a pressing reason to actively skip it.
-[Temple] Let the glory of your gods be known far and wide (+1 Prestige, Pilgrimage trade power increased)
Option: Big Shiny IDIOT TEST
To consider this option you must first establish what the religion being spread actually is... That being 'Science things, tech past the surrounding Civs, and build tall, nibbling away surrounding lands as places implode around you'.
So what does that actually mean for spreading it? 'First breath out tech into the world, then inhale tech from the outside world.'
This is a perfect religion to spread when your behind in tech... good if your at parity in tech... really, really bad idea that gets worse the farther you are ahead. Never mind when you have an overpowered golden age crit tech like iron before bronze.
This is an uplift attempt that goes to fast and those never end well. Am i the only one to notice this?
-[Corruption] Deploy force
'Whelp, the occupational option has gone full out rotten on us... lets spend our half strength military inward right as the nomads war on us. This should make them keep their heads down for the next generation or so... unless they decide to start a counter-revolt'.
-[Corruption] Main Enforce Justice
'Whelp, the occupational option has gone full out rotten on us... lets send in the blackbirds to cull the worst of it out so we can deal with this war... they'll just have to be micromanaged again... defeating the purpose of setting up the occupation option in the first place, but not actually solve the problem'.
-[Corruption] Burn occupational administration down (-2 Stability, switches to geographic admin within Valleyhome)
'Whelp, the occupational option has gone full out rotten on us...time to treat it like the disease it has rapidly become and burn it out... then replace it with what can't be a worse option at this point. What? No I'm not kidding, fire makes everything better. Seriously, lets set our own city on fire to fix past mistakes. Yes, it is that bad. Yes, I realize that means destabilizing us before a nomad war and pointing out are city is are rather flammable and we should fix that. I'll handle the cover up.'
Basically, 'Hopeful micro-civil war and not a moderate one', 'Blackbirds, Blackbirds I call thee forth to trim this administrative hedge its a complete mess', or 'Occupational option BAD... Kill it with Fire!'
Now comes the issues of Who to outfit?
-[Diplo] Send aid to the Metal Workers (-2 Diplo, -2 Econ, -2 Art, -2 Mysticism)
Shores up a flailing war front against the nomad invasion, no easy win and base for them.
-[Diplo] Send delegations to the Metal Workers and Thunder Speakers (-2 Diplo)
Try to organize a combined rude gesture toward the nomad invasion, or at least warn the other probably effected Civs.
-[Diplo] Launch a Main War Mission - Northern Nomads
Remember how the nomads are only vaguely sure of who they are avenging themselves on? Lets send out our forces into their favored terrain and give them someone to focus on. That should focus them on our Civ even if we obliterate some of their forces.
With that covered, Policy change?
-[Policy] Offense
'Quick spend all our main governments income on drawing the attentions of the nomads to our Civ and reinforce Quantity has a Quality to a new generation. Not like we have well armed, well defended buffer states specifically for this kind of thing in the way, and we certainly didn't hand off a salt gift to the NE guys last turn to buffer from that direction... oh wait.'
-[Policy] Defense
'Walls, build more walls! I don't care if there are buffer states in the way or that we mostly have walls in that direction. We Must! Have! More Light Moya! More Walls... right now! No I don't care about the economy's current state or levels.'
-[Policy] No change
'Finish the library, then worry about the how war is fairing once its rammed randomly into all the defenses we've already set up.'
Let the buffer states be buffer states for a turn. It doesn't look like a new hero is going to take over this turn so we options next turn.
Which brings us to the last that was first, Location of the Library?
[] [Library] Valleyhome
'This site could help the government be less bad and cause a lawyer occupation to form and make its own guild!'
'You mean the hideously corrupt things we are stamping down on this turn?'
'Yes, we can use the Guilds to build the Library for us!'
'The ones that we are stamping down on for murderous deranged, inharmonious actions?'
'Yes those'.
'You realize that means putting our only copy of ancient documents into a potential war zone that make be soon be on figurative if not literal fire in five minutes?'
'Yes, isn't it a grand idea! Flawless even!'
*double face palms*
'What no! You can't start a gave of peek-a-boo like that spontaneously! That is just cheating! Where are you? Where are You?!' *wanders off ranting*
*peeks out fingers eyebrow twitching*
[] [Library] Sacred Forest
'Lets make the temple even more awesome and stick the records with those that can most easily copy them'.
'I'm good with that plan'
'What is with that twitchy eye?'
'I don't want to talk about it.'
*From somewhere in the distance, someone screams about 'How invisible people are cheaters'*
Turn events:
-Temple came out really good and we got a nifty art bonus from the roof collapse, no complaints here and the main statue is grand.
-Salt gift to the NE picked... results pending...
-Looks like the Stallions did N+NE explore to a lesser degree anyway. Advanced warning of a nomad rush to those general directions (S, SE, and SW) over there...
-HK has decided to open up a separate front to invade to the east. That is a gamble on their part, one or more of the following are expected:
1-The Hats get it together and HK gets squish between as they are the easier to handle force. The People are holding just a bit of land and fortifying it. HK is actually giving them a target to unite against. Guess who eats the wrath first?
2-The Hats finish imploding, HK risks over extending themselves and could lose land to a resurgent Hats hoard. While they are warring on the opposite side of their Civ.
3- The Hats recover and their borders stabilize with HK. HK stabilizes in the West and the East is their front.
4. HK over runs the Hats and overextends themselves, or eats a round of whatever destabilized the Hats in the first place.
2-The Hats finish imploding, HK risks over extending themselves and could lose land to a resurgent Hats hoard. While they are warring on the opposite side of their Civ.
3- The Hats recover and their borders stabilize with HK. HK stabilizes in the West and the East is their front.
4. HK over runs the Hats and overextends themselves, or eats a round of whatever destabilized the Hats in the first place.
-The Civ tumor of Guilds has metastasized officially. Also, someone actually noticed this was happening before it started metastasized to the rest of the Civ. Only took them two generations to do it.
---
On to the options:
Select a bonus
-[Temple] Know that the gods are with us (+1 Stability)
A bland bonus that wouldn't be really worth considering except it can offer a counter to going into burninate mode on the cancer.
-[Temple] See to the spread of the techniques that went into making this place (+3 art, tech advance)
Tech now (which will probably come anyway) using the temple to boost the effects. A solid option. Solid enough its an auto-take for me without a pressing reason to actively skip it.
-[Temple] Let the glory of your gods be known far and wide (+1 Prestige, Pilgrimage trade power increased)
Option: Big Shiny IDIOT TEST
To consider this option you must first establish what the religion being spread actually is... That being 'Science things, tech past the surrounding Civs, and build tall, nibbling away surrounding lands as places implode around you'.
So what does that actually mean for spreading it? 'First breath out tech into the world, then inhale tech from the outside world.'
This is a perfect religion to spread when your behind in tech... good if your at parity in tech... really, really bad idea that gets worse the farther you are ahead. Never mind when you have an overpowered golden age crit tech like iron before bronze.
This is an uplift attempt that goes to fast and those never end well. Am i the only one to notice this?
Thankfully no. Making a university of all your advanced knowledge and then opening it up to all takers is a plan that benefits you most when behind in tech and least when you are ahead. You want a place to send imported scholars, not a place to attract knowledge tourists. There are too many souvenirs you don't want their Civs bringing home.
Here you go, Corruption:
-[Corruption] Deploy force
'Whelp, the occupational option has gone full out rotten on us... lets spend our half strength military inward right as the nomads war on us. This should make them keep their heads down for the next generation or so... unless they decide to start a counter-revolt'.
-[Corruption] Main Enforce Justice
'Whelp, the occupational option has gone full out rotten on us... lets send in the blackbirds to cull the worst of it out so we can deal with this war... they'll just have to be micromanaged again... defeating the purpose of setting up the occupation option in the first place, but not actually solve the problem'.
-[Corruption] Burn occupational administration down (-2 Stability, switches to geographic admin within Valleyhome)
'Whelp, the occupational option has gone full out rotten on us...time to treat it like the disease it has rapidly become and burn it out... then replace it with what can't be a worse option at this point. What? No I'm not kidding, fire makes everything better. Seriously, lets set our own city on fire to fix past mistakes. Yes, it is that bad. Yes, I realize that means destabilizing us before a nomad war and pointing out are city is are rather flammable and we should fix that. I'll handle the cover up.'
Basically, 'Hopeful micro-civil war and not a moderate one', 'Blackbirds, Blackbirds I call thee forth to trim this administrative hedge its a complete mess', or 'Occupational option BAD... Kill it with Fire!'
Now comes the issues of Who to outfit?
-[Diplo] Send aid to the Metal Workers (-2 Diplo, -2 Econ, -2 Art, -2 Mysticism)
Shores up a flailing war front against the nomad invasion, no easy win and base for them.
-[Diplo] Send delegations to the Metal Workers and Thunder Speakers (-2 Diplo)
Try to organize a combined rude gesture toward the nomad invasion, or at least warn the other probably effected Civs.
-[Diplo] Launch a Main War Mission - Northern Nomads
Remember how the nomads are only vaguely sure of who they are avenging themselves on? Lets send out our forces into their favored terrain and give them someone to focus on. That should focus them on our Civ even if we obliterate some of their forces.
With that covered, Policy change?
-[Policy] Offense
'Quick spend all our main governments income on drawing the attentions of the nomads to our Civ and reinforce Quantity has a Quality to a new generation. Not like we have well armed, well defended buffer states specifically for this kind of thing in the way, and we certainly didn't hand off a salt gift to the NE guys last turn to buffer from that direction... oh wait.'
-[Policy] Defense
'Walls, build more walls! I don't care if there are buffer states in the way or that we mostly have walls in that direction. We Must! Have!
-[Policy] No change
'Finish the library, then worry about the how war is fairing once its rammed randomly into all the defenses we've already set up.'
Let the buffer states be buffer states for a turn. It doesn't look like a new hero is going to take over this turn so we options next turn.
Which brings us to the last that was first, Location of the Library?
[] [Library] Valleyhome
'This site could help the government be less bad and cause a lawyer occupation to form and make its own guild!'
'You mean the hideously corrupt things we are stamping down on this turn?'
'Yes, we can use the Guilds to build the Library for us!'
'The ones that we are stamping down on for murderous deranged, inharmonious actions?'
'Yes those'.
'You realize that means putting our only copy of ancient documents into a potential war zone that make be soon be on figurative if not literal fire in five minutes?'
'Yes, isn't it a grand idea! Flawless even!'
*double face palms*
'What no! You can't start a gave of peek-a-boo like that spontaneously! That is just cheating! Where are you? Where are You?!' *wanders off ranting*
*peeks out fingers eyebrow twitching*
[] [Library] Sacred Forest
'Lets make the temple even more awesome and stick the records with those that can most easily copy them'.
'I'm good with that plan'
'What is with that twitchy eye?'
'I don't want to talk about it.'
*From somewhere in the distance, someone screams about 'How invisible people are cheaters'*
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The next update actually tried to include a descriptor of Valleyhome.
Well, we probably want to sort the mess out first and establish primary records offsite.
I don't trust those buggers from revising the records too.
- Location
- Mists of Albion
Well, that's one way to get people to vote for you, insult them with poor grammar!
People have been being cordial for the last couple of pages, don't ruin it now mate.
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*looks at the heading stating post #49575, page 1983 as the last post read... posts post #49917 on page 1997*
I believe to you missed my point entirely if that is your response.
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Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
His point still stands. All your point indicates is that you're oblivious about current events, salty about past ones, and felt like communicating this to others.
I feel that your point about knowledge thieves as a result of Pilgrimage is accurate. I don't feel that our religion is significantly different on its emphasis on science from that of, say, the Xohyssiri who developed a rather complex medical system within their priesthood. The main difference is that ours emphasizes nature and harmony whereas theirs emphasizes human lives and sacrifice.
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- Location
- Illinois
Ok, I have to admit I'm getting annoyed at all the people putting down Quantity. It's not a bad trait, we just happened to get it at what was pretty much the worst possible time for us. As long as we sit at 10 or less martial, it is no problem whatsoever to us, and is beneficial as it gives us a way to have extra martial without having to spend econ on a permanent increase.
"But Citino," you may ask, "What about the econ damage?"
Well, considering that it takes 3 econ to make a single point of martial for quantity, we can assume that even a catastrophic blow to our army would have a max damage of 1/3 of our total econ, and that it would not trigger below 3 econ, because we don't have enough free dudes available to go fight.
Like, I get that people don't like that it replaced Humility. That was a good trait that we all liked, but rather than trying to go out of our way to get rid of it, why aren't we planning to try to push it to evolve? Gardners and Eye for an Eye had some pretty shitty cons, and those didn't get a tenth of the hate that Quantity gets. And our Elite trait has a con that causes greater social stratification, something that many voters are almost insane in trying to avoid, yet Quantity is still the target of more ire.
Tl;dr Please stop trying to get rid of quantity. Either work to upgrade it, or ignore it and focus on aspects of our civ that can change it without requiring massive changes to our civ for the sole reason of getting rid of it.
"But Citino," you may ask, "What about the econ damage?"
Well, considering that it takes 3 econ to make a single point of martial for quantity, we can assume that even a catastrophic blow to our army would have a max damage of 1/3 of our total econ, and that it would not trigger below 3 econ, because we don't have enough free dudes available to go fight.
Like, I get that people don't like that it replaced Humility. That was a good trait that we all liked, but rather than trying to go out of our way to get rid of it, why aren't we planning to try to push it to evolve? Gardners and Eye for an Eye had some pretty shitty cons, and those didn't get a tenth of the hate that Quantity gets. And our Elite trait has a con that causes greater social stratification, something that many voters are almost insane in trying to avoid, yet Quantity is still the target of more ire.
Tl;dr Please stop trying to get rid of quantity. Either work to upgrade it, or ignore it and focus on aspects of our civ that can change it without requiring massive changes to our civ for the sole reason of getting rid of it.
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@Necratoid our science advantage does not come from our religion, though it has a good synergy with it, it comes from Love of Wisdom, a trait that is so advanced for this age it drains mysticism. The notion that we could spread that through pilgrimage is ludicrous.
pblur
Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn
- Location
- Lawrence's Wagon
I have no clue what your problem with the bandwagon is. Looks like it's all stuff you didn't mock, so... did you not even look at a tally before ranting? Or am I missing your opposition to something?
Edit. Ok the temple vote is slightly against you, not bandwagoning particularly either way... why the rage?
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