- Location
- Mists of Albion
These are their Northern River Mouth villages, the sources of their fishing, salt and dye industries, also some of their most populated areas. It's a Small chunk yes, but it's a very valuable chunk
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
- Location
- BaWü
[X] [CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[X] [Law] Attempt to close off both practices
[X] [Boats] Size
[X] [Infra] Main Saltern Construction
[X] [Law] Attempt to close off both practices
[X] [Boats] Size
[X] [Infra] Main Saltern Construction
DocMatoi
Theoretical Lover of Girls
- Location
- within 2 hours of the White House
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I was tired and freaked out a little when I thought about quality of its own
[66][CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Still a bit borked. [66] -> [X]
Personally I just think portability is superior in our current situation. Rivers are the arteries of a nation because of the ease of trade and travel and the ability to use them for irrigation and hydration, so being better able to navigate them and go further should be of considerable advantage in an era where rivers not only haven't yet been mapped out but haven't yet been made safe as in the modern day. They should thus give us considerable trade advantages as we can go both longer distances, which provides a further benefit as with our cultural values where we can assimilate ideas and with our trade centre idea.
Increasing the size of ships is IMO, just sub optimal right now. Ships currently don't travel away from due to the dangers and because they need to land on the shore at night, so making them bigger is questionable particularly when you consider we don't currently have the infrastructure to utilize them.
The better plan for getting bigger ships is to just build more docks, as eventually with Lore of Wisdom the boat innovation will proc again, and at that point we'd have the infrastructure to take advantage of them.
Finally, portability should aid in war. Given the current votes, there should thus be considerable advantage to taking it now particularly as our knowledge of the inner river Hathayn is minimal. Portability should also help with the nomads given we'd more easily be able to traverse the river, and contact other nomads further in. The last point should be particularly relevant as the best way to contest nomadic raiders, is by leveraging other nomadic raiders.
Increasing the size of ships is IMO, just sub optimal right now. Ships currently don't travel away from due to the dangers and because they need to land on the shore at night, so making them bigger is questionable particularly when you consider we don't currently have the infrastructure to utilize them.
The better plan for getting bigger ships is to just build more docks, as eventually with Lore of Wisdom the boat innovation will proc again, and at that point we'd have the infrastructure to take advantage of them.
Finally, portability should aid in war. Given the current votes, there should thus be considerable advantage to taking it now particularly as our knowledge of the inner river Hathayn is minimal. Portability should also help with the nomads given we'd more easily be able to traverse the river, and contact other nomads further in. The last point should be particularly relevant as the best way to contest nomadic raiders, is by leveraging other nomadic raiders.
DocMatoi
Theoretical Lover of Girls
- Location
- within 2 hours of the White House
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Ohoohoh... Is that so? Super dominance here we come...
- Location
- Mists of Albion
To the common people we are going to be the best thing that ever happened to them.
The new middle classes we'll create will also adore us for making them in the first place.
High level nobles will probably have to be put down via Blackbird
DocMatoi
Theoretical Lover of Girls
- Location
- within 2 hours of the White House
- Pronouns
- They/Them
blarg
[X] [CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[X] [Boats] Portability
[x] [Law] Attempt to close off both practices
[X] [Infra] Main Saltern Construction
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- Location
- Inner Sol System
Not to fear citizen! We have decisively concluded that the entire upper nobility all died as a result of entirely unsuspicious hunting accidents!
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Yeaaahh.
We are basically stabbing them in the hurty bits, while helping a large portion of their population survive. This dichotomy amuses me.
We hath become Econ Vampires. Blieeegh!
DocMatoi
Theoretical Lover of Girls
- Location
- within 2 hours of the White House
- Pronouns
- They/Them
"Yes, they went hunting Blackbirds and met with a terrible fate..."
DocMatoi
Theoretical Lover of Girls
- Location
- within 2 hours of the White House
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I was thinking about the trade dominance, actually. If we're really getting them where they make their salt AND their dyes, I don't doubt their industry will be added to ours on the trade chart pushing us into Dominant status. Heck maybe they make their wine there, too.
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BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Hurty bits.
I totally agree with the trade thing. At worst they only have bare minimum levels in those trades left.
I mean imagine you are a civ who likes to trade things while spamming metal innovations who just went through a massive series of disasters. Suddenly you find you can't trade for stuff to help get the stats to repair the damage. Many ouchies are now in your lap with no real solutions.
Many hurty bits.
So yeah I am amused because we are actually helping them a lot by trying to supply their villages and flip them to our side, but at the same time they are even more liable to collapse than if we didn't.
- Location
- Central Europe
Do you have a AN quote for that? From the update/map I got the sense that we are taking their settlements in Southshore. But, if there is WOG that we are grabbing the mouth of their river I would be tempted to change to Portability.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
This should totally turn into a legacy bonus to Admin heroes if it happens again.
That debilitating belief is totally going to be something about how the Kings always reach for the option most likely to go horribly wrong, through hubris or something.
[X] [CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[X] [Law] Attempt to close off both practices
[X] [Boats] Portability
[X] [Infra] Main Saltern Construction
I was convinced to switch to portability when someone said that focusing on portability early would lead to better-built boats in general in the long term, due to the techniques and methodology required in examining the boats vs size or speed.
- Location
- United States
[X] [CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[X] [Law] Attempt to close off both practices
[X] [Boats] Size
[X] [Infra] Main Salt Gift
[X] [Law] Attempt to close off both practices
[X] [Boats] Size
[X] [Infra] Main Salt Gift
- Location
- Mists of Albion
Southshore is our province, they don't have any settlements inside of it, the update says that settlements close to us wanted be annexed, well if you look at the map it's their coasts and the mouth of the river that would fall into that area and have had the most contact with us.
AN hasn't confirmed this, though it makes the most sense due to how hard it would hit their econ, but you could ask if you want
- Location
- Austria
1. Galleys and longboats say that portable inland-first ships do not scale up well. If you have a reason to think that they are inherently scalable designs, please provide some evidence or examples, because I currently do not see it at all.
2. No, they do not scale down; shipbuilding is hard and every scale requires its own engineering, no one design can be just 'scaled' bigger or smaller to the best of my knowledge.
3. Not sure what are examples of such vessels, so I don't even know about speedy ones.
Then we have bad road network.
But honestly, yes, rivers are better than roads for transportation, yes; I meant it as 'despite rivers being better, we can use roads to kinda fill the role, if more expensively, while we have no other option in seafaring'; sorry if it came out as 'we totes can do roads as good as rivers in transporting bulk goods' - they aren't and will never really be.
Not really?
I mean, Wiki is not the best of sources, but it is still quite trustworthy in matters not politically charged, so I am going to quote relevant passages:
Here I can see that their first seafaring vessels described as big thingies.
Here I can see seafaring vessels.
And here is the revelant thing about partitioning.
So, all in all: well, no shit Chinese had riverboats too, which evolved into bigger ships - but they did evolve into bigger ships. Hence me using China as an example of Size-straegy.
Unless you have some sources on Chinese carrying their ships on hands on at least semi-regular basis, I see no reason to assume they are in any way representative of Portability choice.
Again: why are you, too, making a mistake of equating not Portability with no more riverboats forever and ever?
- Location
- Staring into the void
I actually disagree.
This is a tech we already have, and we previously capped out our boat tech prior to getting iron tools.
My bet is their inland/small portable boats are also great canoes, as the limited bronze they have would be used for their military, not for common tools.
- Location
- Central Europe
There are Hathatyn settlements in what we used to call "southern shores" (Edit: Southshore region probably consists of our province and a "Hathatyn Southshore"). So, I would guess these don't lie at the mouth of the river and would just get added to the existing province.
@Academia Nut Any additional info on where our potential annexations lie?
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[X] [CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[X] [Law] Have the law favour splitting
[X] [Boats] Size
[X] [Infra] Main Saltern Construction
[X] [Law] Have the law favour splitting
[X] [Boats] Size
[X] [Infra] Main Saltern Construction
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According to the front page we continue to have literally no competition for salt. Their means of gathering it are probably super inefficient. Should be where some of their dyes are, though.
No major quote, I don't think we're going to reach the major river, though. Then again. We got something like 5-3... let me go do some digging.
K, this is the last time we annexed someone. We do see we're taking a hit to diplo, not so big because we're not trading in a large part with the Hath. We don't see us taking a hit to centralization. We do see a much bigger econ gain, we don't see a gain on martial. Now, looking at the map... which I don't know how to link, but it's there on the front page, the area we're likely to be taking over is that bit of hills that hugs their coast. If we look at the north, that's two provinces, black river and northshore. Our coastal provinces tend to be actually rather large, likely due to being long and narrow.
Considering we're dealing with hills near the sea, as long as they get any amount of rain, we know that there are going to be small rivers inland, so there should be some benefit, but likely not much. I highly doubt we will reach their main river on the map though.
That said, if you are concerned about immediate use, you should focus on portability. It's been said that size ships need either docks or a strong tide to work with. This means that most of the places are not going to actually be serviceable, especially anywhere inland, for quite some time. Basically the arguments go like this:
- Size: It will be of little impact in the short term due to a lack of docks, but we've been told it will have an effect on our overall ship design, and people want sizable ships, so they're willing to go for the less efficient route to get them. Long term this allows for major bulk shipping, but more so on the open water rather than river shipping.
- Portability: It will be the best short term, as the ships will be able to get more places. It will also allow for more focused river shipping, thus logistics throughout our lands much cheaper, because we do have many settlements on rivers long term.
- Speed: Too few arguments on speed for me to know. People seem to think it will be the best for naval combat though.
We'll obviously need both, and while I think the first design will have the most impact on our ships, I don't think it will be to the extent everyone is making it out to be, and am thus willing to go for the immediately more useful type.
I'm inclined to agree.
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- Location
- Austria
I am on Size side (because I think we are pretty fine off in a short term and do not need extra oomph while long-term headstart on bulk trade is a good thing), but I mostly agree with your analysis. With one caveat: when marches and provinces see that we are going for size, they most likely will prioritize docks too, so this is less of an action and time sink for us that it might appear.
That is my hope. I honestly think most people are blowing both the advantages of their side out of proportion and the drawbacks of the other side out of proportion though. Gets annoying.
Edit: What I want to do is go for something like Size and Portability, then do Size and Portability again. I honestly would prefer to wait on speed until we have relatively large ships, and to get portability to help those ships get to places.
Given the current vote, my preferred path would be Size>Portability>Portability>Size and then maybe speed. Reverse if we did portability first, this way we can help offset the advantage of the starting shape.
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