Remove ads

Paths of Civilization

Reader mode
BungieONI said:
So to all you folks, who may or may not care one way or another here are my reasons to vote for Crow + Alien and Knowable:
Perhaps you may find a reason to vote for him after reading. Or not. *shrug*

1) I've liked the concept he represents for a very long time.
-A) He is in my mind the Teacher of Hard Knocks and at times the Inscrutable Old Wuxia Master. E: His students spend a lot of time learning how not to be stupid, which I consider a crucial life skill.
--A2) By putting him in a representation in the Temple I see us enshrining the idea that overall when taking our cosmology as a whole, the Universe is a Teacher. It's not a particularly kind teacher but it is a through one.
-B) Mechanically I figure the combination of Crow + Knowable has a very large synergy for innovation. I figure this is especially important because we are about to embark on creating proto-shipyards, or some how changing the places we build our boats. This all leads me to think we might generate, or open the way to get, some form of Curiosity, which would drop the costs of any radical ideas we need the Ymaryn to accept, like Iron. This will probably help mitigate the negatives of questioning social values that Love of Wisdom has, I.e it will still happen but it will be done in a positive light.

2) He is the most important overall Spirit to the the People, while not necessarily the most prayed to. None of the options seem to risk stability drops so that's an irrelevant metric. The important metric for me is that he came first and his image and what the People think are his teachings has led them very far. So placing him as the representative center makes sense to me.

3) Doing this would eventually make him chief god, and having a religion centered around a innovation encouraging god is a very good thing. It will provide push-back against Guild ossification.
-A) This is related to Curiosity. I figure this may also help us explore more and learn about the neighbors we know little like the super rich folk down to the south and west.
-B) An addendum to countering Guild ossification and why I am not putting him in the obvious place of Valleyhome, is that I figure the Shamans our scientist equivalent are the best suited to counter it and the temple that gives them the institutional power to do it is being built in Sacred Forest.

Honestly I don't think this is quite everything but hey *shrug* I'm kinda tired.

Oh also have a Tally.

Vote Tally : Original - Paths of Civilization | Page 1767 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.9.1
Task: Temple
[31][Temple] Crow
[26][Temple] Fythhagyna
[9][Temple] Mathulmyn
[6][Temple] Gwy and Gyo
[1][Temple] Crow and Mathulmyn
Task: Crow
[59][Crow] Alien but knowable
[7][Crow] Benevolent
[3][Crow] Prankster
[3][Crow] Alien and unknowable
Task: Boats
[57][Boats] Not the boats, but where they are made
[12][Boats] Size
[1][Boats] Speed
[1][Boats] Portability
Task: Drought
[59][Drought] Weed out troublemakers (Main Restore Order)
[8][Drought] Found March in the North-East
[2][Drought] Ensure proper behaviour (Main Enforce Justice)
[2][Drought] Bring more land under cultivation (Main Expand Econ)
Task: CA
[61][CA] Bring in whoever comes (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[4][CA] Open the borders and granaries (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ)
[2][CA] Bring in as many as possible (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, +6-8 Econ, other effects)
Total No. of Voters: 74
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

It also means that, barring massive value drift, when the time come to establish a dedicated science institution, we'll be able to draw on the church for more than just literacy and records.
 
@Academia Nut
Have we just had shit Study Stars rolls recently or were we just absolutely stupidly lucky before? Did the Study Stars help give us warning about the drought like how it gave us the Baby Boom?
 
Umi-san said:
I'm perfectly fine with building the Library unattached to the Temple. Since it makes libraries and thus academia, knowledge, literacy, etc. more separate from religion and thus more public doing so is in fact preferable.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
In the long run, sure, the library will stand for public literacy and academia and all those good things. Right now though, our Shamans are by far the most literate subgroup. It makes sense to me to have them help push the library.
 
[X] [Temple] Crow
[X] [Crow] Alien but knowable
[X] [Boats] Not the boats, but where they are made
[X] [Drought] Weed out troublemakers (Main Restore Order)
[X] [CA] Bring in whoever comes (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
 
Guile said:
In the long run, sure, the library will stand for public literacy and academia and all those good things. Right now though, our Shamans are by far the most literate subgroup. It makes sense to me to have them help push the library.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Have them push it, or limit it? It's not like having it elsewhere will diminish the ability of our shamans as a whole to come to it as they would come to pay homage at the temple. And it can serve to inform people through distributing articles upon request, as well. Putting it at the main temple to some degree associates it only with the shamans of that temple, rather than having it be the provenance of all. Finally, a perceived lack of literacy among the general population (more likely when it isn't being used almost solely by shamans from the neighboring temple) would be quite likely to push toward public literacy.

Start as you would finish.
 
Last edited:
[X][Temple] Fythhagyna
[X][Crow] Benevolent
[X][Boats] Not the boats, but where they are made
[X][Drought] Ensure proper behaviour (Main Enforce Justice)
[X][CA] Bring in whoever comes (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
 
Guile said:
In the long run, sure, the library will stand for public literacy and academia and all those good things. Right now though, our Shamans are by far the most literate subgroup. It makes sense to me to have them help push the library.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
And building it in Sacred Forest as an annex will help grow the crossroads city of our civ. But if you want to build it in Valleyhome to keep the Shamans from becoming to insular you can. Sacred Forest and Valleyhome are only two or three days travel apart now I think. Could be wrong on the exact time.


Rozencrantz said:
It also means that, barring massive value drift, when the time come to establish a dedicated science institution, we'll be able to draw on the church for more than just literacy and records.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Hadn't thought of that but yeah. And that's a big help. No Galileo silliness for us.

E: It also maybe in the future will push us towards a technocratic organization, which is part oligarchy and part engineering and science and administration/economics meritocracy.

E2: I mean the Galileo silliness's chance to occur is already reduced, but this I see as the final nail in the coffin of that particular piece of human history of dubious value.
Adhoc vote count started by BungieONI on Jun 1, 2017 at 12:54 AM, finished with 44557 posts and 76 votes.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
[X] [Temple] Gwy and Gyo

Going Gwy and Gyo because I love the idea of the temple representing the center of our people. I believe that it'll encourage centralization of our ideals into Sacred Forest, make it a more desirable location for the Library, and give the location far more legitimacy as the Mysticism capital of the Ymaryn if our creation gods are celebrated most there.

I absolutely love Mathulmyn though, even though I don't think they're a good idea to lead this temple. Yay for multi-faceted gods!

[X] [Crow] Benevolent

Optimism is powerful.

[X] [Boats] Size

I'm happy with either this or the new ship building location, but I'm leaning towards being able to carry more stuff over sea.

[X] [Drought] Weed out troublemakers (Main Restore Order)
[X] [CA] Open the borders and granaries (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ)

We're the fucking People, I'd rather not say we didn't do as much as we reasonably could to help refugees.

Also:
Academia Nut said:
Stallions [Main] Expand Forest, [Sec] Trade Mission - Eastern Nomads, [Sec] Survey
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Our first march is planting more TREES! I'm so proud of them. *wipes away a tear*
 
Rozencrantz said:
It also means that, barring massive value drift, when the time come to establish a dedicated science institution, we'll be able to draw on the church for more than just literacy and records.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Of note portions of the Guilds of Florence were eventually dissolved into "universities". Originally the collection of smaller minor guilds into one establishment, these groups to my understanding eventually evolved into the concept of university we are familiar with today, so we are actually on the track to true universities.
Adhoc vote count started by BungieONI on Jun 1, 2017 at 1:02 AM, finished with 44561 posts and 77 votes.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
bluefur87 said:
Then put him in Redcoast where you want the library?


Crow is a teacher and trickster, he is barely considered a religious figure and the current vote vastly favors making him more of a force of nature. This is perfect with pairing with the library as we then start recording observations on the natural world.

If we want to make Crow something to represent our people's desire to learn and study, it makes sense to put him next to the Library.

I could accept that if the current vote didn't absurdly favor him being alien, but able to be figured out. We are specifically setting this up so people who worship crow will interpret it as a means of studying the world around them. This is unquestionably further advanced by the library being attached to his temple.

That's not a claim of 'you should put crow in valleyhome' that was pointing out that people have, last I checked, wanted the library in valleyhome so that would be the good place to put his temple. If he does get put in the sacred forest, we should absolutely try to put the library there.

I just don't think he's well served by being in the sacred forest, we are making him a deity about study of the unknown, not of the unknown being unknown. I am not arguing 'the sacred forest is unsuited for x deity,' as much as a set of arguments where:
  • Crow's temple is the best place to put the library, so we should put his temple where we want the library.
  • The library would be best served in a relatively busy settlement, I would say this means Redshore or Valleyhome are the prime targets, with Valleyhome already having a city we can build off of.
  • Thus I believe Crow is more suited for one of those sites.
  • Our sacred forest is the major expression of our taking care of nature. This is most shown in our ability to farm. So I believe the Harvest Goddess is most suited for it.
Could Crow work within the sacred forest perfectly fine? Sure, I'm not going to sit here and try to bash other people's ideas about what is good, I'm simply trying to point out where I feel Crow would be more useful and why. I believe dropping our temple dedicated to an aspect that we are intent on studying next to a library (or vice versa) is simply good planning, so I hope that people consider where the library goes in this vote, of which I was of the opinion of that it would be in Valleyhome ideally.

Our cornerstone is nature, and the harvest goddess is the best representation we have of that currently, and our Sacred Forest is a heavy representation of our ability to care for the land. I do hope it can be understood why I feel the two are the most synergistic out of the available pairings.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

It is simple and has less to do with the Library and more to with him being our first and greatest Spirit. The idea that the library be placed next to his temple is a good one, but I don't see that necessitates it being in Valleyhome. Valleyhome may be our most populated city, but that does not mean it has to be our place of learning. Sacred Forest is a good place for that since it is better seperated from the politics and already home to dedicated Holy Site to education.

Fythhagyna is a good goddess to worship, but she should not be our first and not in Sacred Forest. Divine Stewards gave rise to our care for the land, it was through our own hands that we have reached this far. Yes it is good to have the spirits help, but the People made it happen. That is what Crow teaches.
 
[X] [Temple] Mathulmyn
[X] [Crow] Benevolent
[X] [Boats] Speed
[X] [Drought] Found March in the North-East
[X] [CA] Bring in whoever comes (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
 
Sivantic said:
Fythhagyna is a good goddess to worship, but she should not be our first and not in Sacred Forest. Divine Stewards gave rise to our care for the land, it was through our own hands that we have reached this far. Yes it is good to have the spirits help, but the People made it happen. That is what Crow teaches.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
*shaman slap-fight ensues over what Crow's teachings actually are*
 
Sivantic said:
It is simple and has less to do with the Library and more to with him being our first and greatest Spirit. The idea that the library be placed next to his temple is a good one, but I don't see that necessitates it being in Valleyhome. Valleyhome may be our most populated city, but that does not mean it has to be our place of learning. Sacred Forest is a good place for that since it is better seperated from the politics and already home to dedicated Holy Site to education.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
An addendum to this but AN has also mentioned that Sacred Forest is also easier to get to than Valleyhome, if you wanna visit the Temple.

Academia Nut said:
Almost immediately the arguments about where to put the new holy site began, before they could even begin to really set things up. There were four major sites that were good spots to build the structure: in Upper Valleyhome, at Rainbow Trail, in Redshore, and in the Sacred Forest. Each had their advantages and disadvantages, such as the Valleyhome location being the most distant geographically but closest to the population, while Rainbow Trail and the Sacred Forest were both considered more spiritually significant. Everyone had an opinion on things, and there was a definite push towards not giving Valleyhome even more prestige and power.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
 
Guile said:
*shaman slap-fight ensues over what Crow's teachings actually are*
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
"Caw! Caw! Caw!" <- Crow laughing his ass off in the background.

Freakin old men with beards down to the floor having slap fights is, hilarious. And has been since the concept first showed up.
 
Last edited:
Reader of all said:
Closest to the southern population you mean I would rather have ALL of the people benefit from the mega projects not just the south
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Ehh sorta. If you pull back up the Province Map. But this doesn't really seem like something to get nitpicky over since the decision point where this was relevant has already long passed.

Oh also have this because I am in a good mood and have been struck by a whim.



E: You know what... Fuck it. Time to change my avatar!
 
Last edited:
Umi-san said:
True, but it doesn't need to be near the Temple, either.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
*wiggles hands* I think you both have good points. I figure to make a really proper decision on it we need to finish the Temple, put out any brushfires, then decide where the Library is gonna go dependent on our changed needs.


VoidZero said:
I'm sorry but the heck is this creature? Did i took a wrong turn and ended up in alien-Australia?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Nah, that's a baby creature that feels like a bar of soap about the size of your head that then grows up into a creature whose mouth can easily swallow your head. I.e A hippopotamus. Ain't they adorable?
Adhoc vote count started by BungieONI on Jun 1, 2017 at 1:25 AM, finished with 44574 posts and 79 votes.
Click to expand...
 
[X] [Temple] Fythhagyna
[X] [Crow] Alien but knowable
[X] [Boats] Not the boats, but where they are made
[X] [Drought] Found March in the North-East
[X] [CA] Bring in whoever comes (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Umi-san on Jun 1, 2017 at 1:26 AM, finished with 44574 posts and 79 votes.
Click to expand...
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top