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Paths of Civilization

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tenchifew said:
No.
As far as I understood the last update, it failed so hard, it hurt.

It is the first reform ever we did not get an option to tray and save.
It was flat out "It did not work, king realized it was a terrible idea and is about to turn it back, than, suddenly!conspiracy.
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I'm thinking we will be able to play out the desicion on what to do with the clans in the next update. Anything else doesn't really make sense.

However, heh, before I vote for anything regarding this clan issue I am asking AN these questions:

When it says "dissolve the clans", does that mean that people lose their clan when they come to Valleyhome entirely, and then they are sorted based on where they end up living or what they do depending on if we pick geographical or occupational?

If we switch to geographical or occupational will we be rolling it out nation wide or is it still city limited?

If we go geographical would each district have a chief, with that chief representing and pushing for that Districts interests?
-If they do how do people vote for that chief?
-How do these district chiefs compare in authority to a chief from somewhere outside Valleyhome, on the scale from village chief to province chief?

If we go occupational, how do we organize the layers of chiefs needed for each occupation?
-Is it there is a sub chief for a certain number of farmers, let's say 100, then those Century sub chiefs vote on a representative higher chief etc etc up the chain until we get to a farmer chief that represents all farmers of Valleyhome?
-How does this Valleyhome Farmer Chief compare in authority to the Farmer Chief for the whole nation and the province advisors?

Got any additions?
 
SpeckofStardust said:
wow one of the worse options suddenly means worse option I mean really :rolleyes:
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We technically didn't know that until he said that when AN locked the vote. Some of us honestly, and mistakenly, thought that it was a simple option that would not cause too many issues. Not sure where the high horse may be coming from... you might want to be careful with that as people can get offended.
 
DragonParadox said:
I took that to mean one of the worst options he has presented in general, ever.

One does not call picking say the second worst of five preternaturally bad.
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no he meant the options in that update, not all the options he's ever given in this quest if only because It is nowhere near as bad as what happened in the Taxes disaster. Like what so far has happened is cakewalk compared to that.
 
SpeckofStardust said:
no he meant the options in that update, not all the options he's ever given in this quest if only because It is nowhere near as bad as what happened in the Taxes disaster. Like what so far has happened is cakewalk compared to that.
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Errrr, when something is less bad doesn't mean it's not painful. Like if i bumped my kneecap into a table, i'm not gonna shrug off the pain of stubbing my toe. More likely to be on the floor wailing.
I hope we get regular turn to restore stability issue, and maybe salvage the diplomatic situation. Don't want to spend actions on diplomatic however.

 
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Now for the actually interesting discussion :
Academia Nut said:
Lesser Spirits

Every living thing is considered to have its own spirit, and most places will also have a spirit of the location. Thus the overwhelming majority of spirits are classified of as lesser spirits, and there will usually be minor rituals to apologise or appease when trespassing on their domain, such as apologising to the spirit of a tree for cutting it down while also promising the spirit of the forest that this action is being done for the greater good of the People and the forest as a whole.
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Hmm, so we sort of consider the Spirits of the Land as part of the People as well. A non-voting element(literally!) of the people.

Interesting that we already have the concept of spirits as part of bigger spirits. The Tree Spirit exists, but so does it's Chief, the Forest Spirit.
@Academia Nut

Do we have spirits of specific parts of a bigger thing? Like, a bear has a spirit, but what about the spirit of it's pelt(which then becomes a nice jacket) and claws? Do they get counted?

What about of things that become other things. Obvious example is turning wood into a table, does the table have a spirit as well or is it dead?
Greater Spirits

Greater Spirits are the very powerful spirits of the world, ones with broad domains that they oversee, typically with some relationship to other spirits in their domain. Most Greater Spirits are now associated with distant, primordial, or historical events or forces.
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The Greater Spirits on the other hand are King level entities, nothing the average person would ever interact with or influence.

The note on historical events make me wonder though, does the Greater Spirit of Drought only exist during a drought or does it just sleep. Or is it instead the Greater Spirit of Water being angry or fickle?

Gods

Gods are a special class of spirit that have three characteristics: they are powerful enough to affect the world, they are interested in human affairs, and they can be convinced of things through human intervention. This last part is perhaps the most tricky since many lesser spirits that are not thought of as gods can also fall under this framework, but the general difference is that rituals and prayers directed at lesser spirits are done personally while for gods they are as much addressing the responsibilities of the god as the god individually. Thus, when apologising to a tree for cutting it down, one is making a personal appeal to the tree's spirit, but when addressing the God of All Forests one is making an address to the responsibility the god holds. There are however a few examples of Lesser Spirits who are also Gods, usually because they have a localised but critically important job, usually of important natural places like springs, caves, or grottoes of important spiritual significance.
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Oh, so Gods are considered mainly titles. Your prayer is filling in a requisition form to the title, and the specific spirit occupying the spot is relatively not as important(but important not to piss off unless you want your prayer to be maliciously answered). These are the chiefs and clerks of the spirits.

This includes the minor functionary in charge of the mail, because if you tick them off your petition will conveniently get lost.
Terrestrial Spirits

Terrestrial spirits are spirits of earthly nature and are the most typical spirits. They are responsible for local natural phenomena such as the growth of plants and animals, the flowing of rivers, and all the other things that make the world a good place to live. When angered droughts and hill collapses and most other terrible things result, making them incredibly important to be kept happy. Fortunately, they mostly seem to appreciate their purview being kept care of, so by carefully tending the land the People can keep them pleased while still reaping the benefits.
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Basic environmentalism!
A foundational quality, though one that seems to protest mainly by going on strike and not doing their job anymore.

Celestial Spirits

By far the largest category of Greater Spirits that are not gods, while also being a large contributor to important gods, the Celestial Spirits dwell in the sky as the storms, stars, planets, sun and moon. While individual stars are often considered to be lesser spirits, the constellations are the greater spirits and any of the "mobile" celestial objects are associated with a god of some sort, although distant and hard to please gods. Celestial spirits are typically associated with powerful but distant forces like fate, things of cosmic importance but that take little concern for human affairs.
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Hmm, so budding abstract theology.
These are the shamans of the spirits. They do a vital job, but are either not in the network, or are difficult to influence. They are weird and under t ounderstand.

The Dead

Every person is considered to have at least two souls, an upper soul which dwells in the head and is responsible for complex thought and a lower soul which dwells in the heart which is responsible for physical animation. An excess of souls or outside spirits can be associated with both great power and mental dysfunction. When a person dies, their lower soul flees their body, leaving it inanimate, while the upper soul lingers for a time before being collected by the Greater Spirit of Death, who assesses their deeds in life and then takes them off to their final fate. The dead can still however still influence the world of the living and thus paying the proper respects to ancestors helps ensure that they can speak up in the courts of the spirits, while disrespect can have them counsel for their impious descendants to be given a lesson in respect.
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And meanwhile the dead engage in nepotism by exchanging favors with the spirits for their descendants. As above, so below.

There sounds like some kind of afterlife budding, but no 'final fate' specified yet. One of those things up for further development. It's implied they join the spirit courts in some way though, since they can influence them, but given the context of favors swaps, they should be able to carry out some duties for the spirits in turn?

Do farmers farm eternally in the afterlife?
Demons

Demons are outsiders from the world, spirits that have no connection to the proper order of things and thus are intrinsically disruptive. Sometimes they are summoned up by Great Spirits to punish the wicked, being given free rein to cause havoc by bringing disease. Sometimes they come in on their own and war with the spirits of the world. While foolish humans can bribe them into doing what they want, demons know no loyalty to humans or spirits and thus ultimately cannot be controlled.
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Ymaryn beliefs on Xohyssiri gods: You can placate them but really they won't do anything good.

Seems like the defining quality of a demon there is the lack of a proper place in the world, so it seems you might be able to change a Demon into a Spirit if you got it gainfully employed?

Because they sound like the Ymaryn view of foreigners. Disruptive, but if you give them a job, teach them the proper ways of things, they'd fuse right in. You can also sic them on other people. Not inherently malicious, but you can't trust them to do the proper thing or keep to their deals.
Crow

Crow, the Creator and Teacher, is something else entirely. By the framework above, Crow would be considered a 'demon-god', but the conclusion drawn is that while he comes from the same place beyond the order of the world as demons he himself is not a demon as he helped produce the order of the world, and he is not intrinsically malicious. Dangerous yes, but malicious no. A better translation of his role would be 'Primordial', 'Titan', or 'Asura'. Something immensely powerful and a little bit outside the current order, but not demonic. The fact that Crow does not take a leadership role among gods and spirits is also a notable divergence for one of his power.
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And Crow is himself an eternal foreigner causing lots of troubles, but bringing with him new ideas that people need to know.
 
SpeckofStardust said:
no he meant the options in that update, not all the options he's ever given in this quest if only because It is nowhere near as bad as what happened in the Taxes disaster. Like what so far has happened is cakewalk compared to that.
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Uh huh. This only reaches the level of that disaster because of all the other shit we have going on. I'm prayin that the international debacle sorts itself and we don't have war on our hands. That way we have some actual margin to solve this bullshit instead of juggling eight different things.


VoidZero said:
Errrr, when something is less bad doesn't mean it's not painful. Like if i bumped my kneecap into a table, i'm not gonna shrug off the pain of stubbing my toe. More likely to be on the floor wailing.
I hope we get regular turn to restore stability issue, and maybe salvage the diplomatic situation. Don't want to spend actions on diplomatic however.
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I figure next turn may be another mid turn, which incidentally means we will have three mid turns in a row, the highest ever I believe. That should have some stability option in it if you want to fix it.

What I'm hoping for is a project turn with a decision about the clan thing. He's done fused turns like that before, even outside of crises, if I remember things rightly.



veekie said:
Now for the actually interesting discussion :

Hmm, so we sort of consider the Spirits of the Land as part of the People as well. A non-voting element(literally!) of the people.

Interesting that we already have the concept of spirits as part of bigger spirits. The Tree Spirit exists, but so does it's Chief, the Forest Spirit.
@Academia Nut

Do we have spirits of specific parts of a bigger thing? Like, a bear has a spirit, but what about the spirit of it's pelt(which then becomes a nice jacket) and claws? Do they get counted?

What about of things that become other things. Obvious example is turning wood into a table, does the table have a spirit as well or is it dead?

The Greater Spirits on the other hand are King level entities, nothing the average person would ever interact with or influence.

The note on historical events make me wonder though, does the Greater Spirit of Drought only exist during a drought or does it just sleep. Or is it instead the Greater Spirit of Water being angry or fickle?


Oh, so Gods are considered mainly titles. Your prayer is filling in a requisition form to the title, and the specific spirit occupying the spot is relatively not as important(but important not to piss off unless you want your prayer to be maliciously answered). These are the chiefs and clerks of the spirits.

This includes the minor functionary in charge of the mail, because if you tick them off your petition will conveniently get lost.

Basic environmentalism!
A foundational quality, though one that seems to protest mainly by going on strike and not doing their job anymore.


Hmm, so budding abstract theology.
These are the shamans of the spirits. They do a vital job, but are either not in the network, or are difficult to influence. They are weird and under t ounderstand.


And meanwhile the dead engage in nepotism by exchanging favors with the spirits for their descendants. As above, so below.

There sounds like some kind of afterlife budding, but no 'final fate' specified yet. One of those things up for further development. It's implied they join the spirit courts in some way though, since they can influence them, but given the context of favors swaps, they should be able to carry out some duties for the spirits in turn?

Do farmers farm eternally in the afterlife?

Ymaryn beliefs on Xohyssiri gods: You can placate them but really they won't do anything good.

Seems like the defining quality of a demon there is the lack of a proper place in the world, so it seems you might be able to change a Demon into a Spirit if you got it gainfully employed?

Because they sound like the Ymaryn view of foreigners. Disruptive, but if you give them a job, teach them the proper ways of things, they'd fuse right in. You can also sic them on other people. Not inherently malicious, but you can't trust them to do the proper thing or keep to their deals.

And Crow is himself an eternal foreigner causing lots of troubles, but bringing with him new ideas that people need to know.
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On that afterlife thing it seems like it is not yet a separate world, but a hidden part of this one, and we also have a reincarnation cycle with the Heart Soul while the Mind soul goes off to Spirit Court.

Your other interpretations are also on the nose because they make so much sense. I wonder if the DOOM is an incredibly powerful demon or a Extremely Pissed Off Celestial Spirit acting as a God?
 
VoidZero said:
Errrr, when something is less bad doesn't mean it's not painful. Like if i bumped my kneecap into a table, i'm not gonna shrug off the pain of stubbing my toe. More likely to be on the floor wailing.
I hope we get regular turn to restore stability issue, and maybe salvage the diplomatic situation. Don't want to spend actions on diplomatic however.

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HOLY SHEEET!?

WAS IS THA! IS SO CUTE! All the fiddly claws and the fluzz. It's a ball of Fluzz!
 
SpeckofStardust said:
We weren't in a crises the update after the option was picked. Thus it is not as bad.
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Yeah, now we're just in an unprovoked war of aggression against our oldest and closest ally in the middle of the worst powderkeg in the known world because our sociopolitical chaos and legalized corruption have moved into the expeditionary "Banana Republic" phase.

By the end of this we'll be watching our schism civilization loot Xohys to pay their debts to the Metal Workers for the weapons they were supposed to use to conquer the pirates while the Thunder Horses bang on our door to hold us responsible and the shamans scream about excommunicating everybody from the Grand Temple they won't let anybody stop building despite it bankrupting the state.
 
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Lailoken said:
Yeah, now we're just in an unprovoked war of aggression against our oldest and closest ally in the middle of the worst powderkeg in the known world because our sociopolitical chaos has moved into the expeditionary "Banana Republic" phase.

By the end of this we'll be watching our schism civilization loot Xohys to pay their debts to the Metal Workers for the weapons they were going to use to conquer the pirates while the Thunder Horses bang on our door to hold us responsible and the shamans scream about excommunicating everybody from the Grand Temple they won't let anybody stop building.
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Problem with that scenario is that the HK hate them harder than we do and will try to crush them, not sell them weapons.

I mean feel free to continue freaking the fuck out but I'm gonna be straight out and say that I'll be here being amused by your antics.
 
Lailoken said:
Yeah, now we're just in an unprovoked war of aggression against our oldest and closest ally in the middle of the worst powderkeg in the known world because our sociopolitical chaos and legalized corruption have moved into the expeditionary "Banana Republic" phase.

By the end of this we'll be watching our schism civilization loot Xohys to pay their debts to the Metal Workers for the weapons they were supposed to use to conquer the pirates while the Thunder Horses bang on our door to hold us responsible and the shamans scream about excommunicating everybody from the Grand Temple they won't let anybody stop building despite it bankrupting the state.
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Not in a war yet.
 
DragonParadox said:
The GM specifically said we chose the worst option. This was maximum immediate pain, possibly for no gain.
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Actually no. He said one of the worse(i.e. below 50%), the actual worst is "change all the rules at one go", which everyone managed to identify as a trap.

I mean, we already know what happens when you change all the rules at one go.

Umi-san said:
....????

The exploit was moving around crushing geographical boundaries by forcing overly large clans to break up. If it was geographically based it would be harder to join the district because an actual move would be required and it wouldn't have an effect because it's based on geography. It thus would not matter in the city.

It would only matter r.e. joining and leaving clans if the clan wipe was permanent rather than temporary.

The people in power don't gain more power, but they do stay more in charge, theoretically, if you ignore the fact that power at the higher levels are already land-based geographic nobility with clan-based power underlayed.
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You realize moving districts within a city is basically trivial right? Our previous arrangement was stable because moving from one settlement to another was not trivial, involving moving weeks to months of travel.

In a city, you could walk over to your new district in a day. Except whoever realizes it to exploit the shit out of wandering around the districts and shifting vote counts until people realize they're being scammed and choose to limit mobility.

That'd be the primary exploit. The secondary exploit is more difficult, since you need to travel long distances to unclan and then reclan if you wanted, so we'd probably see it in a few generations instead of instantly, but having the city organized by district and all clans abolished would have the same legal repercussions as expanding clan adoption laws across the country.

The changes:
-Revising adoption laws pushes towards the Patronage system of Rome - large spanning families, adopting smaller families to combine influence towards the large family, limiting social mobility through accumulation of power in larger families, forming mini nationstates within the city itself.

-Geographical division pushes towards Serfdom - prevention of abuse to the system leads to tying people to the areas they live and work in, removing travel rights because that's what it takes to prevent abuse until you have a central updated census and communications.

-Occupational division pushes towards Guilds - isolation and factionalizing of trades, leading to suppression/absorption of newer trades and creeping guild rights. Begun the patent wars have.

All have issues. Some now, some later.

BungieONI said:
I'm thinking we will be able to play out the desicion on what to do with the clans in the next update. Anything else doesn't really make sense.

However, heh, before I vote for anything regarding this clan issue I am asking AN these questions:

When it says "dissolve the clans", does that mean that people lose their clan when they come to Valleyhome entirely, and then they are sorted based on where they end up living or what they do depending on if we pick geographical or occupational?

If we switch to geographical or occupational will we be rolling it out nation wide or is it still city limited?

If we go geographical would each district have a chief, with that chief representing and pushing for that Districts interests?
-If they do how do people vote for that chief?
-How do these district chiefs compare in authority to a chief from somewhere outside Valleyhome, on the scale from village chief to province chief?

If we go occupational, how do we organize the layers of chiefs needed for each occupation?
-Is it there is a sub chief for a certain number of farmers, let's say 100, then those Century sub chiefs vote on a representative higher chief etc etc up the chain until we get to a farmer chief that represents all farmers of Valleyhome?
-How does this Valleyhome Farmer Chief compare in authority to the Farmer Chief for the whole nation and the province advisors?

Got any additions?
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District:
-How are districts going to be divided? Strict geography benefits Nobles and Farmers(once the system propagates), as they both have high land area to population ratios, whereas artisans are packed in much closer together for work efficacy.

-Under what conditions should a district have it's lines redrawn? District populations will change over time much like clan populations do. When do we determine that a district has too many, or too few people to properly serve?

Occupational:
-How are the occupations divided? Are Masons counted with Potters, and are the luxury versions of either counted together with the practical?
 
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Stop: Mine will be "stop"
  • Staff Post
    • redzonejoe said:
    Complainers gonna complain.

    Also, @McLuvin is looking pretty admirable to me right now. Justifiable Smugness is a right. The world would be a lesser place without it. Also, people need to accept when they've messed up instead of blaming others or whining about how unfair things are.

    These are harsh-sounding, likely unpopular truths but I support these statements fully.

    @McLuvin, what will your next words of wisdom be?
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    mine will be stop You can be justifiably smug --I regularly am-- but that doesn't mean you have to include it as an element in your posting. You should neither accuse everyone else of being "complainers" or "whining". I'm going to give you a warning for marginal behaviour and then I'm going to ask you to not repeat this behaviour again.

    Have a good day.
     
  • Staff Post
    • veekie said:
    Actually no. He said one of the worse(i.e. below 50%), the actual worst is "change all the rules at one go", which everyone managed to identify as a trap.

    I mean, we already know what happens when you change all the rules at one go.


    You realize moving districts within a city is basically trivial right? Our previous arrangement was stable because moving from one settlement to another was not trivial, involving moving weeks to months of travel.

    In a city, you could walk over to your new district in a day. Except whoever realizes it to exploit the shit out of wandering around the districts and shifting vote counts until people realize they're being scammed and choose to limit mobility.

    That'd be the primary exploit. The secondary exploit is more difficult, since you need to travel long distances to unclan and then reclan if you wanted, so we'd probably see it in a few generations instead of instantly, but having the city organized by district and all clans abolished would have the same legal repercussions as expanding clan adoption laws across the country.

    The changes:
    -Revising adoption laws pushes towards the Patronage system of Rome - large spanning families, adopting smaller families to combine influence towards the large family, limiting social mobility through accumulation of power in larger families, forming mini nationstates within the city itself.

    -Geographical division pushes towards Serfdom - prevention of abuse to the system leads to tying people to the areas they live and work in, removing travel rights because that's what it takes to prevent abuse until you have a central updated census and communications.

    -Occupational division pushes towards Guilds - isolation and factionalizing of trades, leading to suppression/absorption of newer trades and creeping guild rights. Begun the patent wars have.

    All have issues. Some now, some later.



    District:
    -How are districts going to be divided? Strict geography benefits Nobles and Farmers(once the system propagates), as they both have high land area to population ratios, whereas artisans are packed in much closer together for work efficacy.

    -Under what conditions should a district have it's lines redrawn? District populations will change over time much like clan populations do. When do we determine that a district has too many, or too few people to properly serve?

    Occupational:
    -How are the occupations divided? Are Masons counted with Potters, and are the luxury versions of either counted together with the practical?
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    Oooo those are good ones. Thanks.


    What do you think of the idea I bring up in occupational, where there is an X number of whatever profession per sub chief, and then the sub chiefs vote on their representative and then these representatives vote on their own etc until that Valleyhome Farmer Chief? It sounds rather similar to what we already do, and I remember somewhere that AN said we have a Valleyhome specific Admin advisor.

    What sorts of exploits are there and how do we fix them?


    *looks up*

    Oh dear. *Backing away slowly*
     
    Lailoken said:
    It's basically an adaptation of the Fourth Crusade. There's a reason that it was called the worst crime in the history of humanity, by a German Jew, in 1954. History gets crazy and we're on the road to an example.
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    Eesh.

    Yeah let's not. I hope the update drops soon so we can discuss how to fix this mess.
     
    I'm kind of hoping Academia Nut is working on the update instead of studying political theory to answer all those questions about how occupational and/or district-based policy would work.
     
    veekie said:
    Seems like the defining quality of a demon there is the lack of a proper place in the world, so it seems you might be able to change a Demon into a Spirit if you got it gainfully employed?

    Because they sound like the Ymaryn view of foreigners. Disruptive, but if you give them a job, teach them the proper ways of things, they'd fuse right in. You can also sic them on other people. Not inherently malicious, but you can't trust them to do the proper thing or keep to their deals.
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    Also, Demons are an obvious outgrowth of our Harmony Trait. "These beings don't fit inside the order of the world, and therefore they must be evil."

    I don't think you can turn a Demon into a Spirit by just by giving it a role. If you could, the Demons used by Greater Spirits would have an established place in the system (as attack dogs) and thus start counting as Lesser Spirits. Although this is probably similar to actual theological debates our shamans are having...
     
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