- Pronouns
- He/Him
Considering that you're in the not!Caucasus where the terrain isn't anywhere near as rough and is shifted further south to a far more Mediterranean climate, yes, you have a Sicilian climate.
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
Considering that you're in the not!Caucasus where the terrain isn't anywhere near as rough and is shifted further south to a far more Mediterranean climate, yes, you have a Sicilian climate.
You know, there is an easy way of securing our flank against the Thunder Horse. We could just ask them for the unclaimed part of the Lowlands in exchange for an alliance. The only reason I had such a violent reaction to the Nomads was the fact that they had killed a ton of our people. The TH haven't actually done anything to us yet though.
I want enough forests so that expansion doesn't run us up against the edge of disaster, Umi-san. We don't get multi-turn warnings for many of the things we'd want wood for.
That forests also increase our econ cap and defensive bonuses means that we're not even picking a poor action without valuing that surplus, in any case.
This.
Besides for us forests are also a big defensive boon as well as agricultural help, so I very much want to stay ahead in number of forests.
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
didn't stop the TS raids, but that's not a big deal.
Still, an alliance would hurt our ability to defend the HK which gains us safety in the short term but gains us danger in the long, if the TH conquer the HK.
We get enough warning to matter; we have enough forests that a deficit will only hurt if we don't treat it; provinces; 2-3 untapped forests is a large surplus versus the cost of a mine (2) or shipbuilding (<2). Defenses are nice for Marches, which is why they'll be making forests themselves. It doesn't expand our econ cap, as far as I am aware.
We have now entered a circle. Ciao.
pblur
Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn
- Location
- Lawrence's Wagon
Addressing imperialism (because I'm young and foolhardy):
One of the reasons Kipling should be required reading is because he's an apologist for imperialism. He's not non-critical, but he's a voice for an idea that has none in the current culture.
I'm sure some people would LIKE imperialism to not have a voice, but that's foolishness. History that picks good guys and bad guys, and then only tells the bad of the bad guys and the good of the good guys isn't history. It's a children's tale.
@Vocalend (in between moral grandstanding) listed quite few of the negative results of imperialism:
On the flip side, if you look at developing or entirely undeveloped countries in the eighteenth century, the best predictor for success in the twenty-first is spending time as a british colony or possession. There are a few exceptions (Zimbabwe, for instance). But five of the G20 nations were British colonies or possessions.
Imperialism shaped our current world. Understanding its good and bad aspects helps understand the current world and predict and shape the future.
(Also, screw Imperialism. It's not Crowish.)
One of the reasons Kipling should be required reading is because he's an apologist for imperialism. He's not non-critical, but he's a voice for an idea that has none in the current culture.
I'm sure some people would LIKE imperialism to not have a voice, but that's foolishness. History that picks good guys and bad guys, and then only tells the bad of the bad guys and the good of the good guys isn't history. It's a children's tale.
@Vocalend (in between moral grandstanding) listed quite few of the negative results of imperialism:
On the flip side, if you look at developing or entirely undeveloped countries in the eighteenth century, the best predictor for success in the twenty-first is spending time as a british colony or possession. There are a few exceptions (Zimbabwe, for instance). But five of the G20 nations were British colonies or possessions.
Imperialism shaped our current world. Understanding its good and bad aspects helps understand the current world and predict and shape the future.
(Also, screw Imperialism. It's not Crowish.)
England's Answer
Truly ye come of The Blood; slower to bless than to ban;
Little used to lie down at the bidding of any man.
Flesh of the flesh that I bred, bone of the bone that I bare;
Stark as your sons shall be -- stern as your fathers were.
Deeper than speech our love, stronger than life our tether,
But we do not fall on the neck nor kiss when we come together.
My arm is nothing weak, my strength is not gone by;
Sons, I have borne many sons, but my dugs are not dry.
Look, I have made ye a place and opened wide the doors,
That ye may talk together, your Barons and Councillors --
Wards of the Outer March, Lords of the Lower Seas,
Ay, talk to your gray mother that bore you on her knees! --
That ye may talk together, brother to brother's face --
Thus for the good of your peoples -- thus for the Pride of the Race.
Also, we will make promise. So long as The Blood endures,
I shall know that your good is mine: ye shall feel that my strength is yours:
In the day of Armageddon, at the last great fight of all,
That Our House stand together and the pillars do not fall.
Draw now the threefold knot firm on the ninefold bands,
And the Law that ye make shall be law after the rule of your lands.
This for the waxen Heath, and that for the Wattle-bloom,
This for the Maple-leaf, and that for the southern Broom.
The Law that ye make shall be law and I do not press my will,
Because ye are Sons of The Blood and call me Mother still.
Now must ye speak to your kinsmen and they must speak to you,
After the use of the English, in straight-flung words and few.
Go to your work and be strong, halting not in your ways,
Balking the end half-won for an instant dole of praise.
Stand to your work and be wise -- certain of sword and pen,
Who are neither children nor Gods, but men in a world of men!
Truly ye come of The Blood; slower to bless than to ban;
Little used to lie down at the bidding of any man.
Flesh of the flesh that I bred, bone of the bone that I bare;
Stark as your sons shall be -- stern as your fathers were.
Deeper than speech our love, stronger than life our tether,
But we do not fall on the neck nor kiss when we come together.
My arm is nothing weak, my strength is not gone by;
Sons, I have borne many sons, but my dugs are not dry.
Look, I have made ye a place and opened wide the doors,
That ye may talk together, your Barons and Councillors --
Wards of the Outer March, Lords of the Lower Seas,
Ay, talk to your gray mother that bore you on her knees! --
That ye may talk together, brother to brother's face --
Thus for the good of your peoples -- thus for the Pride of the Race.
Also, we will make promise. So long as The Blood endures,
I shall know that your good is mine: ye shall feel that my strength is yours:
In the day of Armageddon, at the last great fight of all,
That Our House stand together and the pillars do not fall.
Draw now the threefold knot firm on the ninefold bands,
And the Law that ye make shall be law after the rule of your lands.
This for the waxen Heath, and that for the Wattle-bloom,
This for the Maple-leaf, and that for the southern Broom.
The Law that ye make shall be law and I do not press my will,
Because ye are Sons of The Blood and call me Mother still.
Now must ye speak to your kinsmen and they must speak to you,
After the use of the English, in straight-flung words and few.
Go to your work and be strong, halting not in your ways,
Balking the end half-won for an instant dole of praise.
Stand to your work and be wise -- certain of sword and pen,
Who are neither children nor Gods, but men in a world of men!
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maximillian
Civilised Sheep
- Location
- Ranch
But the repercussions!!!
The cold weather, harsh winter and flinsing winds is what made the area a living nightmare for invaders. Without it we are not invincible.
As for the rest of the world, it must be a in a period of considerable warming, civilisation will be far more limited, and disease more spread. Pine forests must be rare as fuck, and the wood a rare luxury. So no massive ships for us. The fur trade would also be more limited.
On the bright side, we are prime land for making high quality malmsey wine.
Edit : the region is shifted not the global temperature.
The cold weather, harsh winter and flinsing winds is what made the area a living nightmare for invaders. Without it we are not invincible.
As for the rest of the world, it must be a in a period of considerable warming, civilisation will be far more limited, and disease more spread. Pine forests must be rare as fuck, and the wood a rare luxury. So no massive ships for us. The fur trade would also be more limited.
On the bright side, we are prime land for making high quality malmsey wine.
Edit : the region is shifted not the global temperature.
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- Location
- Austria
> terrain isn't anywhere as rough
Ah, yes, this was the part about comparisons with the Caucasus that was bothering me too, thanks.
maximillian
Civilised Sheep
- Location
- Ranch
Well, there goes the plan for a glorious caucasus empire.
- Location
- Canada
Lol it's the reason why people kept on making China comparisons as a reason for expanding into the lowlands.
- Location
- Germany
this stuff -> Double trails -> upgrade LV + SF to true cities (mostly in order to prepare for the next refugee wave & place them where our culture is strong enough that they get integrated quickly) -> Forest+ defence policy/Hathatyn -> Hathatyn/Forest + defence policy (mostly cause we need to prepare for the TH and might unlock auto defense for future settlements & can be payed for via foresting our entire region, which also brings our people culturally closer to trees again)
Or he just screwed with it and we are placed where it is naturally hotter, for example by moving the entire continent further south
Probably never, or at least not until the lowlands have blown up again as we won't expand into the north cause nomads, many people have issues with conquering the southern hill billys and east is to dry to go all expansion + main forest without increasing the production of the black soil every time until we hit the TS & build a dam there, something which nobody will go for as it ties up our action pool just for econ generation
- Location
- Germany
It's more like not establishing proper infrastructure & refusing to integrate the people as equals or at least near equals into the society, if we avoid that we should be should also avoid most problems associated with imperalism
- Location
- his hidden lair
Do you really think that a massive aqueduct network through an area the size of Britain won't be a massive undertaking? Or that those rivers can cover all the other territory we'd need to claim to adequately protect said rivers? Or the risk of nomads fucking up our aqueduct networks since it's going to be incredibly hard to cover all the river and fouling/filling in aqueducts just requires manpower?
- Yeah, it would be, but it isn't
- Access to the sea doesn't necessarily mean fresh water, and the only major freshwater sources we've encountered require us to pretty much at least double our presence on the steppes.
- We had minor familial ties. There's a hell of a difference between that and 'they genocided everyone in a thousand kilometers refusing to countenance backing down'- there's a reason that Attila earned the epithet 'scourge of God' and that people are absolutely terrified of major steppe warlords, because they leave major long lasting scars on a civ's psyche. Had we turned the Lowlands into a similiar bottomless manpower hole the TH would have almost certainly pulled out or become vastly more wary of the hill monsters who fight without regard for life or limb.
- Except distance won't magically become significantly less of an issue. Holding together a densely populated civ of any large size is more liable to devolve into feudalism/increasing decentralization. As for the concepts to promote Unity? They're nowhere near enough. The fact is, race and culture as unifying concepts are essentially only ~300 years old if that in the modern sense. The only way to hold such a large region is to become an empire. Because the cultural drift is far too immense when you can't even reliably send taxes back for a few fairly nascent cultural traits to prevent.
- That's still not bad, but coastline for the sake of coastline isn't necessarily all that useful. The city of Redshore is well positioned to become a major trade port and ship production center, more access to the coast is only really useful in specific trade goods we can only find there like snails and salterns. And we've already got room to expand both that we haven't bothered to. I dislike the desire to expand along the coast without a more coherent reason than 'because it touches a body of water we touch' if we want to create a mid point between us and the metal workers? Cool, but that's essentially what this new march already does.
- Water routes are OP in how they facilitate things. Easier comms, easier shipping, easier trade, (possibly easier) food production. That only matters if a) there's something worth talking to b) there's something worth shipping to and fro c) there's people and goods worth trading d) there's a pressing need for more food to enable any of these others. Water routes are awesome. But they're awesome in achieving a goal, settling land solely because it has water routes that make it easier to settle isn't a solid plan. Especially when it presents a really long narrow front for the nomads to attack and we don't have the capacity to ship major armies by sea right now
- Black soil isn't truly automatic. We have the action for a reason. Forests aren't automatic. Aqueducts aren't automatic. Assuming that it'll just get done eventually is a stretch considering we're still not fully forested. But that's all ignoring the opportunity costs if we have to devote so much time and effort just to make said land productive.
- Fair enough, but even if your less ambitious coastal expansion plan goes forward (And I do find that far more reasonable) we're going to need more marches to protect that.
On the subject of Expand Forests and why I think it gives economy slots.
We know forests do useful things to soil and rainfall patterns - see the entire arguments we've just had about the steppes and how we could invest to make them good for farming.
Economy slots indicate that there's things we could do to get more out of our territory - that some of it is going unused, or used inefficiently.
That more forests could thus increase the fertility or the amount of land we can cultivate -> more econ slots is an obvious conjecture.
And here's the thing: we've had anomalous extra econ slots show up before, after an Expand Forest.
We know forests do useful things to soil and rainfall patterns - see the entire arguments we've just had about the steppes and how we could invest to make them good for farming.
Economy slots indicate that there's things we could do to get more out of our territory - that some of it is going unused, or used inefficiently.
That more forests could thus increase the fertility or the amount of land we can cultivate -> more econ slots is an obvious conjecture.
And here's the thing: we've had anomalous extra econ slots show up before, after an Expand Forest.
In all honesty one of the most effective strategies against nomads would be desertification of nearby steppe. And water hole poisoning. Yeah, walls are nice.
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- Location
- United States
As hellishly effective as it would be, we'd get fucked over right alongside the nomads.
- Location
- Australia
It doesn't give economy slots. It gives us Economy without using up our slots. The slots are exclusively for Expand Economy.
pblur
Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn
- Location
- Lawrence's Wagon
The Dead Sea expansion is what I've been discussing too...
It's the low-risk strategy, because we'll be dealing with known problems.
pbluekan
Somethin's Fucky ...
- Location
- Trumpistan
You forgot Africa. That's probably where imperialism screwed up the most.
maximillian
Civilised Sheep
- Location
- Ranch
Or having your own pet Nomads raise hell on everyone else (ala crimean khanate)
pbluekan
Somethin's Fucky ...
- Location
- Trumpistan
I too am from America.
maximillian
Civilised Sheep
- Location
- Ranch
..... Am not American, and by client state I meant an independent collection of Tribal chiefdoms and petty kingdoms, until the British showed up, burned a few cities made a few deals and declared us a unified administrative region that is client to the empire.
Not a colonial settlement with delusions of granduer.
That last part is sarcastic if it aient obvious.
- Location
- Mists of Albion
