Seems likely.
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
Carrnage
Human
- Location
- New Zealand
Except for willow bark tea and marijuana.
Also dosage problems, plants don't have a uniform active substance content. So the same weight of herbs could underdose one time and overdose the next time. Depending on the possible variance in content and how great the difference between the right dosage and over- or underdosage is.
- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- It/Them
Humans are very weird, as already mentioned.
You can have a fake doctor walking in with a lab-coat, introducing himself as not-a-doctor, injecting your arm with pure water, telling your that it is just water and will have no effect on the pain in your leg, that they are just studying the placebo effect and your leg will still hurt less than if it was left alone.
Funnily enough, injections work better than colored sugar pills, which in turn work better than white sugar pills.
While humans are indeed machines, part of that machinery is tribal community and rituals.
Well, dosage problems exist, but the bigger one is we lack either plant recognized. Either they grow in other places or we hadn't noticed yet.
Proto Marijuana is probably what we use in aromatics though
[X][Main] Build Iron Mine
[X][Secondary] Study Health
[X][Secondary] War Mission - Northern Nomads
[X] Change Policy - Offense
I weep for us reaching negative stability, again, but it is, sadly, necessary.
This said, this is narratively a very good time for greater good to trigger!
Come on, greater good!
@veekie
A very good analysis, as always.
Just one thing I want to add:
Not only did the nomad king go out to get new nomads because we exhausted the troops he had...
He extra went far enough to get ones who did not know about the People, to hit us with a first wave of troops who did not fight us before, to weaken us first.
It shows to me that nomads who do know us do not want to fight us, at all.
I wager fighting People is turning their own very personal Vietnam war for the nomads.
[X][Secondary] Study Health
[X][Secondary] War Mission - Northern Nomads
[X] Change Policy - Offense
I weep for us reaching negative stability, again, but it is, sadly, necessary.
This said, this is narratively a very good time for greater good to trigger!
Come on, greater good!
@veekie
A very good analysis, as always.
Just one thing I want to add:
Not only did the nomad king go out to get new nomads because we exhausted the troops he had...
He extra went far enough to get ones who did not know about the People, to hit us with a first wave of troops who did not fight us before, to weaken us first.
It shows to me that nomads who do know us do not want to fight us, at all.
I wager fighting People is turning their own very personal Vietnam war for the nomads.
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So it is!
Actually, going by the update:
-He spent 20-30 years subjugating foreign tribes JUST to get enough dudes to fight us. He did so before his army broke(i.e. Hero immunity to critfail, he pulled out his army because he realized that there was no winning).
-He had a Heroic son in that tiem who fought him for leadership, then joined him.
-He went to distant lands to specifically get bronze weapons to fight us.
-He probably brought siegecraft this time because last time our walls stopped him long enough to bring more dudes.
I don't think he and his nomads are afraid.
I think he's furious enough to take a whole generation out of his conquest schedule. To make absolutely sure he has the manpower to break us.
Meanwhile all around the Steppe borders everyone else wonders where the fuck the Nomads went suddenly.
- Location
- Austria
Given that most of northen settlements are walled, we are probably unprofitable to loot.
Honestly, I am reaally tempted to kick a war mission and risk one turn of -2 stability to scare nomads some more.
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
I suddenly want to expand into the Steppe if we mange to break them because we might be able to cut back heavily on Nomad growth if we do so.
Can't hold it if we did.
- Location
- United States
We can expand into the steppes at any time, purely because we have a permanent casus belli against them. However it's going to be difficult to take the lowlands because we don't have a casus belli against them until they provoke us.
That's somewhat easily solved by the TS, but not a gurantee to get the TH to provoke us (they might abandon the TS because they've been having difficulties with holding their tributaries). Same goes for the DP. The HK we can easily vassalize once we destroy the TS, as they'll be super happy and will be impressed by our military might.
We could possibly vassalize the DP too if we take out the TH, but that'll be a strained vassal as they're too far away to convert to our culture easily.
That's somewhat easily solved by the TS, but not a gurantee to get the TH to provoke us (they might abandon the TS because they've been having difficulties with holding their tributaries). Same goes for the DP. The HK we can easily vassalize once we destroy the TS, as they'll be super happy and will be impressed by our military might.
We could possibly vassalize the DP too if we take out the TH, but that'll be a strained vassal as they're too far away to convert to our culture easily.
- Location
- Staring into the void
We're doing better, getting a main iron mine, in time for the war.
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
why not? If we break the nomads then we could easily set up a march to do the holding for us.
- Location
- Austria
Two nomadic heroes simultaneously with possible bronze and slightly plausible siegecraft are more dangerous.
With the mine we will already be at -1 stability.
In time of war, where we easily could get another stability hit.
We cannot afford it.
The midterm decision also may cost us a point of stability for the better options.
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Possible, but it's risk in the sense that being at -2 Stability and 1 Economy leaves us a stiff poke from exploding. Even spending 2 emergency economy triggers Stability loss.
As it is, we'd be committing pretty much our entire Martial score as a civilization already. Every single man at arms is going.
Naw, expanding into the lowlands is relatively easy. Wait for them to destroy each other. Walk in and drop a fortified town while everyone is too dead to protest. It's a simple endurance contest.
Taking the steppes is...pain. The further we go, the longer our border with Nomads is and the harder it is to defend. The further inland without mountain and river protecting your flanks the easier it is for them to hit you from two sides with overwhelming force.
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
1. the lowlands will be hell
2. the Nomads are basically hitting us with everything they got, if we honestly can break them we will face 0 opposition for a good number of turns which if we take full advantage of will control a very sizable portion of the Steppes which will give us a far better situation then simply sitting back and ignoring them until they come to hit us again.
- Location
- Austria
Fair enough, midturn decision on how to deploy iron may well cost stability.
- Location
- United States
Will they fall apart? Or will the TH once again stabilize and grow big enough to start harassing us? Or the TS will attack us in the next 1-3 turns with possible TH assistance (unlikely, but possible)?
It'd be easy to just wait for the factions to weaken each other, but the power balance is significantly lopsided in favor of the TH. The DP aren't a threat to them, the swamp people have great defenses but very low martial...the HK are the only ones that could push against the TH.
I agree that the steppes is going to be difficult. My point was that we don't have to take several turns to get them to give us a casus belli, we can just attack when we're ready. Honestly, if the nomads develop siege warfare I might vote for killing off as many nomads as possible in order to get rid of the knowledge. If they don't, then i'd rather we conquer the lowlands, as the most developed civs might snag the siege tech.
On the plus side, if the nomads get the siege tech and use it against us then we'll likely get a bonus to discovering it (or just get it outright).
Which is MORE true for the Steppes.
We have a functional strategy for the Lowlands. They form semistable states who war over territory for economic reasons. These states are capable of learning, and have to deal with Stability issues.
By developing fortified settlements and expanding into the lower quality land in their northern stretch, we set up a forward base which is too expensive to take by force if you are motivated by loot, and the soil too poor to desire.
Then we simply wait for any of their disruptions, let the next disease or war break them up, then we grab their abandoned land and fort it up in the name of charity.
...you realize the Steppes are more than 300 times larger than the Lowlands right? All of which are wide open plains favoring Nomads with few natural borders?
Which Nomad Heroes will unify arbitrary numbers of them whenever they arise, and no damage really lasts more than 3 generations before they forget because they lack any institutional memory.
Consider their reaction to taking absolutely devastating losses from fighting us was to go call in even more boyz for the waagh, taking the Steppes is a doomed endeavor without something like the Great Wall to actually hold them during hot periods.
- Location
- Mists of Albion
Aaaaaaw, but I wanted to be Not!Russia