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Paths of Civilization

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Academia Nut said:
[X] Magwyna should marry them personally (Secures alliance with Highlands Kingdom while Magwyna lives, has a small chance of triggering conflict with the nomads)
[X] Remind people along trade routes that the People don't suffer the blue plague (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ)

The chiefs took in Attrikwyn's advice and then began to discuss it all, and in the end despite strong support far too many of the others on the council were leery of both the long term entanglements and the idea of entrenching Magwyna's power. Somewhat frustrated at his advice being asked for but not followed, Attrikwyn was at least glad that his input was asked and it was made obvious that the king was not acting the dictator and was still attempting to maintain harmony through consensus and input from the provinces. He was also somewhat amused when one of the delegates was told that Magwyna would be marrying their chief's daughter and the man demanded proof of consummation. He probably hadn't expected his demand to be accepted... although from Magwyna's face after she probably had been put into a rather uncomfortable spot with that, and he did have to consider how he might have felt had someone demand that he bed another man in front of them to prove something.

It was something Attrikwyn was mulling over all the way home, in that even if the 'marriages' were essentially a polite fiction and abuse of the People's traditions for the benefit of mollifying outsiders, there was something distasteful about the whole affair. He would speak with his own wives as to their thoughts...

Meanwhile, Magwyna herself was settling her new 'wives' into her household and having something of a thunderstorm in her head. Any children the women had would be 'hers' even though she had nowhere near the spiritual potency to make that a possibility and the foreign peoples would not believe that any children from the marriage would be legitimate, although the People would of course care for them. The women could also pursue other activities if they so wished, but the thought of descent got Magwyna to thinking. Thinking about names, and how most of the People had three or four names: a personal name, a matronymic, and at least one of a clan name, village name, or nickname. Not everyone could read or write, but there were probably enough literate people who could ensure that everyone's name could be written down...

The local authorities kept track of their own resources, of who worked what and generally what they possessed that could potentially be taxable, and of how many People there were. Generally they just sent in reports and those higher up just had to trust that they were receiving accurate information, which was mostly true, but there was always the possibility of a cheater who had phantom population for one reason or another. The king keeping track was essentially impossible...

The idea kept turning over in her head for months. If you wanted to keep track of everyone, even on a generational basis, you would generate more records than would be useful. It would all be a bunch of useless junk kicking around because you would have no idea where everything was. No one could keep track of that many records... not unless you had a record of records. And even then that would rapidly spin out of control once someone took a record out to look at it, since if they didn't put it back in the right place it would be a mess and...

You needed both records of records and some sort of set order so that not only could you find things, but you could take any random record and know where it came from and thus put it back properly. The sheer logistics of managing the logistics were rapidly growing every time Magwyna passed the idea through her head, but with each pass she realized that while there were problems, she had the solutions available to her. She began to write and plan and do in addition to her thinking.

She wasn't quite sure if she could ever work out how to keep track of everything, so that the king - or, really, the king's administrative advisers and the clerks - could know what was going on without needing to simply trust the two or three layers of chiefs below, but as it was her early ideas helped organize the collections of records and tallies they already had, freeing up time for clerks and shamans to work with them rather than remembering roughly where they put stuff and then going to search it out. There were of course complaints from the older members that they already had a system and these new layers were just wasting their time when they already knew how to do things, but Magwyna had ways of tracking beyond the complaints of her subordinates, and she knew that once the initial teething problems were sorted out that things were running better and smoother and it was easier to pluck out both corruption and mistakes.

Heroic Admin Critical!
+2 Econ
+1 Stability
New Admin Tech: Primitive Indexing

This was perhaps most useful in the newer provinces, the ones that didn't have lots of old records and where the grain counters and shamans were a younger generation of the sort willing to move around. These were also the places with the highest influx of people and the attendant confusion and chaos. With her new administrative prowess and calling for a Grand Sacrifice to smooth out the accumulation of goods - and thus also make it easier to keep track of who had what by clearing out some long term wealth that was easier to hide - Magwyna soon had the economy spinning like a greased wheel. To this she sent masons and bricklayers to the new province to the east, Redhills, to build enormous walls around the main settlement springing up there. There were many more passes into that territory from the lowlands and if someone wanted to raid the area they would be much harder to stop. Further settlements were also springing up, and there were some concerns about both protection and ensuring that they were adequately surveyed.

Protection definitely came to the forefront of the People's minds as the Thunder Speakers and their new overlords proceeded to spend the next few years looting the north and east of Xohyssiri, carrying off much of the population there to work their farms or live as their wives. It got so bad that not only did the traders say that the Swamp Folk to the far south had broken away, no longer offering tribute or any sort of political support, but eventually it came up that the priest-king in charge of their great city had decided to simply play the same game the Thunder Speakers had and requested vassalization from the same king in the east. This would undoubtedly accelerate the cities of the Eastern Thunder Horse to turn on each other, but in the meantime it offered the city some degree of protection and the chance to lick its wounds.

Of course, with the new settlements pushing into new territory, there was the possibility of getting some of the ongoing conflict on them, and with her hair turning from silver to white Magwyna received reports of intermittent raiding in Redhills by Thunder Speaker warriors. They were probably just lone individuals or bands out doing their thing with no oversight from their higher ups and for the most part they had caused and received minimal casualties and mostly just been driven off... but if Magwyna wanted to organize a larger response and give the Highlanders and excuse to beat up on their eastern neighbours, this was as good as any... it was just that it would be the two of them against the Thunder Speakers, Xohyssiri, and Thunder Horse in all likelihood. It would be neither easy nor fun, but they could take a swing if they wanted and be able to expect back up. Magwyna wasn't exactly a fan of the idea, but no one liked being attacked and not retaliating when justified. Depending on what the Thunder Horse did next, the issue might clear itself up from its low level anyway, but no matter her decision Magwyna would probably be leaving a mess for her heir.

Which, ironically enough for the decision so many years ago, now looked like it could in fact be her eldest son Yehlmyn, who had inherited some of her intelligence and had learned at her feet and thus carried on much of her administrative genius. He was perhaps not quite as charming, but given that Magwyna had her suspicions that at least a few of her 'children' from her wives had come from her son it was perhaps best for all that he had not inherited all of her charms, lest every babe in Valleyhome be born with his eyes. Still, by his own merits he was within range of becoming the Clerk Chief in a year or two, which would legitimately put him in the running for king... it would just sort of look bad if she supported his bid, and she had enough sway over the council that if she didn't it would be assumed that her not speaking up would be taken as a negative endorsement.

Have weak casus belli
[] Attack Thunder Speakers to stop border raids (Declares war with goal of stopping attacks, Highlanders will join, likely brings in Thunder Horse and Xohyssiri)
[] Send an envoy to request the Thunder Speakers rein in youths (-2 Diplomacy, chance of TS king actually complying, small chance of triggering war)
[] Ignore the issue (-1 Prestige, large chance of loss of stability)

Question of succession
[] Support son (-1 Legitimacy, heir becomes Yehlmyn [Mediocre Martial, Good Diplomacy, Heroic Admin])
[] Remain quiet (Next king is probably standard)

[Main] Grand Sacrifice
[Main] Build Walls - Redhills

Provinces: [Main] New Settlement - Southshore Interior, Badlands
[Sec] Blackriver West

Stallion Tribes - [Main] Build Walls - Stallionpen, [Sec] Watchtowers x2
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Wellllll fuck a duck.

That's impressive Magwyna! High five on the indexing.


*sees TH becoming super powerful*
GAAAAHHHHHH!!!
*pulls hair*

Well when the Thunder Horse King who holds the reins of the Thunder Speakers and the Xohyssiri breaks away then we will have a polity that is quite strong and will be able to hold itself from the attacks of his other Thunder Horse Neighbors.

The question becomes what do we do? Do remember that this is really only a case of the Thunder Speakers poor centralization.

Interesting that the Swamp People have broken away. The DP are really doing bad.
 
[X] Send an envoy to request the Thunder Speakers rein in youths (-2 Diplomacy, chance of TS king actually complying, small chance of triggering war)
[x] Support son (chance of -1 Legitimacy, heir becomes Yehlmyn [Mediocre Martial, Good Diplomacy, Heroic Admin])
 
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aceraptor said:
Freaking not!Mongols. Cant they just fragment already? Well, guess the next few turns are going to be buffing military.
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The problem is that they already are. Or close to it, anyway. The Eastern Thunderhorse are a collection of city states unified more by convenience than by anything more binding. The only reason that they aren't raiding each other (anymore) is because all of their neighbors are much more... squishy.

Actually, the dissolution of their current power balance is actually, in the long term, BAD. If they start attacking and waging war with each other, eventually one of them might WIN, at which point you go from a bunch of city-states bullying their neighbors and sneaking glares at each other, to a (relatively) sprawling kingdom with enough clout to force their neighbors to their knees.

It would probably take generations to happen, but honestly? We work in generational terms anyway.

3150
 
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I think we should build watch towers around our eastern hills as a precautionary measure.

We can't rely on the TH fragmenting in a timely manner, we have to shore up our exposed settlements.
 
[X] Send an envoy to request the Thunder Speakers rein in youths (-2 Diplomacy, chance of TS king actually complying, small chance of triggering war)
[X] Support son (Chance of -1 Legitimacy, heir becomes Yehlmyn [Mediocre Martial, Good Diplomacy, Heroic Admin])

We should really go the diplomatic route to start with- Magwyna is absurdly good at it, and if nothing else, that is likely to play out for enough time for the Thunder Horse to come out of play a bit. It's sounding like war is more and more likely though.

Supporting the son is potentially problematic, but I'm willing to do it for another Heroic Admin.
 
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[X] Support son (-1 Legitimacy, heir becomes Yehlmyn [Mediocre Martial, Good Diplomacy, Heroic Admin])

Also, OPINION!

3151
 
[x] Support son (-1 Legitimacy, heir becomes Yehlmyn [Mediocre Martial, Good Diplomacy, Heroic Admin])

AdminHero!!Indexes!!(foams at the mouth.)
 
[X] Send an envoy to request the Thunder Speakers rein in youths (-2 Diplomacy, chance of TS king actually complying, small chance of triggering war)
[X] Remain quiet (Next king is probably standard)

Shame to pass up that heroic admin but probably for the best in the long run.
 
drake_azathoth said:
[X] Send an envoy to request the Thunder Speakers rein in youths (-2 Diplomacy, chance of TS king actually complying, small chance of triggering war)
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I don't really have an opinion on the son.

So here ya folks go.

[X] Send an envoy to request the Thunder Speakers rein in youths (-2 Diplomacy, chance of TS king actually complying, small chance of triggering war)

Off to planning for me!
 
[ ] Send an envoy to request the Thunder Speakers rein in youths (-2 Diplomacy, chance of TS king actually complying, small chance of triggering war)
[ ] Support son (-1 Legitimacy, heir becomes Yehlmyn [Mediocre Martial, Good Diplomacy, Heroic Admin])

This is the vote i'm leaning towards.

While the nepotism is bad, AN said we only have a possible chance of having him in the running for king. I'd really not like to lose an admin hero with Good diplo and medicore martial.

The legitimacy we can fix with a proclaim glory (which will burn art...which we're maxed out).

Also, I suggest we do Study Metal and switch to progressive policy.
 
aceraptor said:
I think that the next turn we have control we should main warriors and watch towers.
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We're also going to have to switch the provinces off of Expand. Or at the very least find a way to dissuade them from picking new provinces. We don't want to expand faster than we can control and build up after all. We are a Tall society.
 
[X] Send an envoy to request the Thunder Speakers rein in youths (-2 Diplomacy, chance of TS king actually complying, small chance of triggering war)

[X] Support son (-1 Legitimacy, heir becomes Yehlmyn [Mediocre Martial, Good Diplomacy, Heroic Admin])

we have the diplomacy to burn and we should always go for the hero kings
 
[x] Send an envoy to request the Thunder Speakers rein in youths (-2 Diplomacy, chance of TS king actually complying, small chance of triggering war)
[x] Support son (-1 Legitimacy, heir becomes Yehlmyn [Mediocre Martial, Good Diplomacy, Heroic Admin])
 
[X] Send an envoy to request the Thunder Speakers rein in youths (-2 Diplomacy, chance of TS king actually complying, small chance of triggering war)
[X] Remain quiet (Next king is probably standard)

You know what? I choose to believe in our people, that they will decide purely on the merits of the person rather than where they came from.
 
[X] Send an envoy to request the Thunder Speakers rein in youths (-2 Diplomacy, chance of TS king actually complying, small chance of triggering war)
[X] Support son (-1 Legitimacy, heir becomes Yehlmyn [Mediocre Martial, Good Diplomacy, Heroic Admin])

Even if he takes the reigns from us, I'm trusting a Heroic Admin to know to Proclaim Glory if he needs to. And he probably will all on his own.
 
We have heroic Diplomacy, right? @Academia Nut , can't we explicitly gather up the chiefs, explain our position and say that we're deliberately not endorsing anyone to avoid the appearance of impropriety, and that we want any bid for kingship on our son's part to be considered entirely on its' own merits? This seems like exactly the sort of tricky explanation that a Diplomacy Hero should be able to pull off.

EDIT: Or just say "as one of the foremost candidates is my son, I'm recusing myself from this process unless you pick a moron"?
 
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Dirk93 said:
And now the last civ of the generation after our founding is dying.
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I really wouldn't count them out. They were smart enough to vassalize when faced with the uberpower, they're just waiting for the uberpower to crash and they'll probably recoup their losses. The Swamp People just aren't willing to play the game because they don't have to- they know the Dead Priests can't risk depleting their military any time soon if the ball could drop at any time and they get the chance to play for independence again.

Basically, the Swamp People are taking the exact opportunity the Dead Priests now have to wait for. :lol
 
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Dirk93 said:
And now the last civ of the generation after our founding is dying.
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Yeah I'm kinda sad...

The Xohyssiri may have been utter douches but they came into being when we were just starting to form. They felt like a bratty little brother.

Huh...

We've seen a lot of civs fall from prominence.
The original unnamed Lowlands civ split into the Western Confederacy and the Dead Priests.
The Spirit Talkers fell.
The Western Confederacy fractured into the Highlands Kingdom around the same time.

That's a significant number.

Starting to feel our mortality here. *raises drink to folks gone by* Peaceful rest.
 
Hangwind said:
You know what? I choose to believe in our people, that they will decide purely on the merits of the person rather than where they came from
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Our leadership is semi-hereditary and highly politicised/corrupt. We aren't a full fair meritocracy, corruption and plain outright greed plays a part in the process and I doubt that means we'd get that sweet sweet Heroic character.
 
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