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Paths of Civilization

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DocMatoi said:
Artisans start agitating for more respect?
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The thing is, is that they already do get some respect.

More sounds like it could happen, because hey people can be weird like that.

Kiba said:
Hopefully we'll generate a philosopher class, who do nothing but philosophize.

As far as I can tell, philosophy only began in the Iron age.
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Philosophy is a ways away. We don't have enough social complexity in my opinion.

Perhaps shamans will start expanding holy sites on their own?
 
Sivantic said:
I recall less of you pushing for the Badlands settlement than you pushing for attacking our neighbors and trying to carve out more of the lowlands via war.
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No, I was pushing for the badlands for a while. It was primarily as a stepping stone to better get in on the Lowlands if an opportunity, but I was always pro-badlands.

You guys have already listed reasons as to why Badlands is great even if we don't plan on going to war any time soon.

BungieONI said:
It is a terrible idea to go into the Lowlands for nearly all action matrices.
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See, I really think this is our bias coming into play. For all that you guys dismiss the Lowlands as a conflict ridden shithole- the fact that its been able to sustain that conflict even with the locals' vastly inferior agricultural testament proves it's worthwhile to at least consider. The fact is, for all the blood and carnage shed over it- it's proven time and time again to be fertile enough to warrant that even when handled by vastly less efficient agricultural processes.

To compound this, we've literally just seen an example of notable external power making lasting gains by invading the Lowlands what with the TH vassalizing the TS. Just because it's a hotbed of conflict doesn't mean that it will always be and we can't possibly break that cycle.

It speaks volumes that the only explanation the anti-Lowlanders can point to declare the Lowlands will never be worthwhile to come into conflict for is a several century long testament to the Lowlands being fertile and productive enough to sustain such conflict while still growing and developing. I'm not saying we should invade now, I'm not saying we can easily sweep away all our foes if we merely tried- I'm saying this bias against the Lowlands is getting laughable and claiming pacifism is it's own reward is a crock of shit. Peace has it's place but pacifism is a chain around the neck we really don't need.
Andres110 said:
I'd argue that leaving the badlands empty is a better defensive measure, as it means that any invaders would have to go through the entire badlands without a stopping point.
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What. Defensive terrain is only valuable if the defender is capable of exploiting it. Settling and fortifying the badlands won't suddenly make marching an army across it magically easier. It'll just mean that instead of being able to navigate the maze-like terrain uncontested they have to deal with raids on them in confusing terrain, sabotaging their baggage and preventing them from foraging. And if they do want to seize said settlement they have to lay siege in a inhospitable area where there's nothing to forage for.
 
Andres110 said:
AN outright said that it's not possible. It was once possible, but we missed the opportunity to do it a long time ago.
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It's not possible to build it because they are sitting on it. That's what he was talking about, and remember that when he said that we had no contact with them at all.

I'm more specifically talking about talking to the HK and sweet talking them so hard they let us build the Damn Dam. Would probably take a better alliance though.

And Place to the Stars is probably coming first.

I'm unconvinced that it is better to leave it open is a good idea. The way I see it it is a opening into our wine bottle. It makes sense to me to put a cork in it any invaders have to work to pull out. Plus if we are actually living there actively we will forest it up. And a Badlands forest, even a thin one, is a nightmare to deal with and travel through. We could control all the passable routes with only some effort.
 
BungieONI said:
The thing is, is that they already do get some respect.

More sounds like it could happen, because hey people can be weird like that.


Philosophy is a ways away. We don't have enough social complexity in my opinion.

Perhaps shamans will start expanding holy sites on their own?
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You think the Greeks are more complex than us? What made the Greek work is that the upper class have a shitton of free time to do whatever they like, while the slaves do all the work.

Meanwhile, we have a considerably more advanced system of taxation, a written code of law, clerks to do all the accounting, etc.

Our problem is that our intellectual class, the shamans are all busy, and they're quite often focused on practical aspects.
 
Karugus said:
See, I really think this is our bias coming into play. For all that you guys dismiss the Lowlands as a conflict ridden shithole- the fact that its been able to sustain that conflict even with the locals' vastly inferior agricultural testament proves it's worthwhile to at least consider. The fact is, for all the blood and carnage shed over it- it's proven time and time again to be fertile enough to warrant that even when handled by vastly less efficient agricultural processes.

To compound this, we've literally just seen an example of notable external power making lasting gains by invading the Lowlands what with the TH vassalizing the TS. Just because it's a hotbed of conflict doesn't mean that it will always be and we can't possibly break that cycle.

It speaks volumes that the only explanation the anti-Lowlanders can point to declare the Lowlands will never be worthwhile to come into conflict for is a several century long testament to the Lowlands being fertile and productive enough to sustain such conflict while still growing and developing. I'm not saying we should invade now, I'm not saying we can easily sweep away all our foes if we merely tried- I'm saying this bias against the Lowlands is getting laughable and claiming pacifism is it's own reward is a crock of shit. Peace has it's place but pacifism is a chain around the neck we really don't need.
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I agree with this, cept for the pacifism bit but that's for some other discussion I don't want to get into right now, and I've pointed out that the Lowlands are super fertile to.

It's why I said it was bad for nearly all action matrices. Not all of them. In fact like I've said we are approaching one of the action matrices that allow for many gains to be had from the Lowlands if we reach out and poke it.


Kiba said:
You think the Greeks are more complex than us? What made the Greek work is that the upper class have a shitton of free time to do whatever they like, while the slaves do all the work.

Meanwhile, we have a considerably more advanced system of taxation, a written code of law, clerks to do all the accounting, etc.

Our problem is that our intellectual class, the shamans are all busy, and they're quite often focused on practical aspects.
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They might be on par, I don't really know. But it is that practical focus that makes me think we have a few more things that need to happen before philosophy can be created.
 
I don't who started it, but I'm going to ask that we don't call Magwyna by Mags. That name is cursed.
 
Sivantic said:
I think you misunderstand BungieONI.

He is referring to our past war missions to the Lowlands and how even word of AN stated to be relatively ineffectual due to distance. That is what he means that it is terrible to go into the lowlands
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Except we wouldn't be fighting the same kind of war, would have the badlands setup, and would be going into this with a better goal than 'fuck the Dead Priests!'. Especially since we have experience moving large numbers of people over farther distances than to the Lowlands.

BungieONI said:
I agree with this, cept for the pacifism bit but that's for some other discussion I don't want to get into right now, and I've pointed out that the Lowlands are super fertile to.
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It's less that I'm saying pacifism in moderation is a bad thing, but people like Andre are treating it like a badge to be proud of, like giving up on opportunities for our civ out of hand is a reasonable and not-remotely-reactionary position to be taking. I'm not saying peace is a bad thing, but peace should be because it serves the interests of our nation, not because it's peaceful.
 
Sivantic said:
I think you misunderstand BungieONI.

He is referring to our past war missions to the Lowlands and how even word of AN stated to be relatively ineffectual due to distance. That is what he means that it is terrible to go into the lowlands
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Sort of. Karu mostly seemed to miss the "nearly" in my sentence.

There are a handful of action matrices that mean we actually get big gains.

Probably the most explored one is the one you me and @Karugus all agree on is sensible. Which is the Stepwise Expansion.

Grab Badlands. Fortify our outer provinces (East Hills, Black River, Southshore, Badlands)

Move to the next, maybe do some fighting. Fortify.

Move to the next, repel raiders and fights. Fortify.

Etc.

My biggest concern is making sure the logistics tether doesn't snap, and the Fortifying helps with that.

E:
Karugus said:
Except we wouldn't be fighting the same kind of war, would have the badlands setup, and would be going into this with a better goal than 'fuck the Dead Priests!'. Especially since we have experience moving large numbers of people over farther distances than to the Lowlands.
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There's this to, though I wasn't really thinking in this direction much.
 
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Karugus said:
Except we wouldn't be fighting the same kind of war, would have the badlands setup, and would be going into this with a better goal than 'fuck the Dead Priests!'. Especially since we have experience moving large numbers of people over farther distances than to the Lowlands.
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That's been my point. No badlands, bad idea. Badlands, we have options now.
 
Karugus said:
It's less that I'm saying pacifism in moderation is a bad thing, but people like Andre are treating it like a badge to be proud of, like giving up on opportunities for our civ out of hand is a reasonable and not-remotely-reactionary position to be taking. I'm not saying peace is a bad thing, but peace should be because it serves the interests of our nation, not because it's peaceful.
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Stop strawmanning me. I have already explained the very practical reasons why I believe we should continue to pursue peace. That you keep insisting that I like it purely for its own sake is fucking insulting.
 
*Shrugs* I think a Badlands settlement (and hopefully Expand Forest action there) is a very good step towards acquiring further territory, be it in the Lowlands or elsewhere. There just hasn't been a pressing need to take territory that's not basically up for grabs until recently.

In terms of 'whose face would you like to punch in', I would prefer expanding east to south at first if we have the chance, if only to make trading with the Dead Priests and ETH easier. I mean, obviously let's not ignore the prospect of settling empty seafront property, but let's not head too far south when we don't have a pressing reason to do so.

In terms of long, long, long range military plans- what I'd like to do is seize the land the Spirit Talkers had before and build up north of the Lowlands to the east. Once we have control of the northern stretches of both rivers, we can basically flood south along BOTH rivers while keeping our logistics stupid-easy and just cut the Lowlands into pieces while taking the middle piece so anyone who wants to trade has to through us. Settle the river valley between the two rivers, make peace with anyone on the east or west to give ourselves some breathing room, and snicker up our sleeves.

I'm not in a hurry to do that, though, in part because we obviously have a lot of opportunities to work with already and diplomacy or disaster may give us the chance to just pick up the pieces. We certainly don't want to punch the WTH in the nose right now when they're part of an uber-polity, wait until they fragment and we have a better chance.
 
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BungieONI said:
They might be on par, I don't really know. But it is that practical focus that makes me think we have a few more things that need to happen before philosophy can be created.
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Yes. They are more complex.

Anyway, we don't have enough shamans to teach the people the laws, or administer healthcare. Once we get past that hurdle, it should be possible for shamans to focus on spiritual matters, and hopefully, philosophy.
 
If we were to invade the lowlands, I suggest we go for the HK.
  • Their core terrain are hills, something that'll give us an edge for keeping the land.
  • They are backed against a mountain chain, so we won't have to worry about an attack from the west.
  • There's a large river which could open up a mega project for connecting another canal to the cataracts (once we make it less rocky with our metal tools, whichever kind of metal they're made of).
  • They are geographically close to the group selling poppies which would mean easier control of the product.
  • The mountains and hills in their core territory are likely to have some nice metals.
  • We have the option of a badlands settlement which will make it significantly easier to wage war.
While the Thunder Speakers are also viable, I believe they are too far away (which is made worse by the huge amount of hills between us).
 
hylas240 said:
If we were to invade the lowlands, I suggest we go for the HK.
  • Their core terrain are hills, something that'll give us an edge for keeping the land.
  • They are backed against a mountain chain, so we won't have to worry about an attack from the west.
  • There's a large river which could open up a mega project for connecting another canal to the cataracts (once we make it less rocky with our metal tools, whichever kind of metal they're made of).
  • They are geographically close to the group selling poppies which would mean easier control of the product.
  • The mountains and hills in their core territory are likely to have some nice metals.
  • We have the option of a badlands settlement which will make it significantly easier to wage war.
While the Thunder Speakers are also viable, I believe they are too far away (which is made worse by the huge amount of hills between us).
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Actively invading changes the calculus a little, and since we recently allied them we'll have to wait a couple turns before we make steps in that direction.

  • I agree that we will have a bigger edge over them. They have not had much fighting in the hills themselves so they probably have not had much impetus to develop ninjas like we have.
  • Direct attack will not be a problem, though I am concerned that they might be allied with the SHP and can call those folks to swing around and attack us on a naval front more directly.
  • I like the Mega project Idea. It also helps our logistical problem of holding that much land.
  • This is a good or a bad. A good if they are simply raiding partners, a bad if they are actual allies.
  • Kind of a toss up. They certainly don't seem to be producing metals. I like the chances though.
  • And this I agree with entirely. It gives us a strong buffer against them and lets us have defense in depth.
There is also the kicker that the Thunder Speakers are now vassals to the Thunder Horse and poking them might bring a larger response than we expected. Fluid alliances among city states are a bitch to work around. If the Breakaway happens and some of the Eastern Thunder Horse who vassalized the Thunder Speakers are attacked, poking their vassal will divide their attention. Whether that's good or bad really depends on how the dice land.
 
Funny idea: What if all humans have pointy ears in this alternative universe?

Then through thousand of years of history, the Ymaryn eventually came on top. Their culture dominated the world.

So when dimensional travelers come to Ymaryn's Earth, they all mistaken the humans living there as Elf Folks.
 
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