We shall see about that. In the matter of "alloying", I would think that our compound bow is the analogue closest to what Ymaryn knew to be alloys. Still, we shall see how things go.
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
[X] [Main] New Settlement - Southern Shores
[X] [Secondary] Copper Mine
[X] [Secondary] Copper Mine X2
[X] [Kick] The Garden
I think the people talking about how delaying copper by another turn won't matter are underestimating the effect widespread copper tools will have on our ability to do pretty much anything, including unlocking new metals.
[X] [Secondary] Copper Mine
[X] [Secondary] Copper Mine X2
[X] [Kick] The Garden
I think the people talking about how delaying copper by another turn won't matter are underestimating the effect widespread copper tools will have on our ability to do pretty much anything, including unlocking new metals.
Its about how we're losing out on time limited opportunities. The actually effective routes to getting new metals.
Copper is very much right after them in priority.
- Location
- Philippines
You know I wonder if with our population feeling emboldened it would lead to greater innovation as well as making solidifying our culture much easier. I searched the definition of emboldened
"give (someone) the courage or confidence to do something or to behave in a certain way." so it would make sense that if we keep being at stab 3 our culture will homogenize on it's own
"give (someone) the courage or confidence to do something or to behave in a certain way." so it would make sense that if we keep being at stab 3 our culture will homogenize on it's own
Omegahugger
Inattentive Idiot
[X] [Main] New Settlement - Southern Shores
[X] [Secondary] Trade Mission - Highland Kingdom
[X] [Secondary] Trade Mission - Thunder Horses
[X] [Kick] The Garden
Fine, I'll vote tactically.
[X] [Secondary] Trade Mission - Highland Kingdom
[X] [Secondary] Trade Mission - Thunder Horses
[X] [Kick] The Garden
Fine, I'll vote tactically.
- Location
- Austria
We don't know about it's effects; seems nice, and green is a good sign, but we will see.
We might want to delay switching from the trade policy, actually, depending on circumstances. Especially since now we have a way to convert Diplomacy into a bunch of stuff and bragging rights.
Besides, we have more than three trading partners, so more than one turn of Trade Policy may be warranted, while we manually place provinces, surveys and connections between them.
Two turns of Trade Policy + possibly Salt Gift if we get too much Diplomacy and want their best stuff seem like a fun combo to wrangle stuff out of people.
Only nitpick of note is that I want More Boats sometime very soon.
Also, once we get on the next Megaproject streak, we'll probably want both Dam and Stonehenge to not waste the Policy, so we should probably wait a bit more.
EDIT: Also, description of Trade policy says "produce luxuries and art" besides trade missions. Which means either we have to do trade missions manually (do not want) or we should do it for more than 1 turn because at least some provinces will go for Art Patronage or Snails instead of Trade Mission. Which is not a bad thing, mind you.
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- Location
- United States
I'm wary of focusing on gifting salt. The art we can get from a patronage (which will have innovation chance as opposed to the flat amount from the gifting act) and the prestige is currently not that valuable.
It's great for snagging any tech our neighbors might have in exchange for the salt as well as burning diplo if we're capped, but that's it.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
I suppose I have three questions: Why are the trade missions time-limited, why are you choosing the Highland Kingdoms and the Thunder Horse when neither of those polities have made any metalworking breakthroughs we know of (it was the Metal Workers and the Eastern Thunder Horse, right?) and why do you think we'll be able to understand knowledge of advanced metalworking well enough to actually bring it back when we don't even have the basic metalworking we know of set up already?
Oh and I should also ask: why no salt gift? We certainly have the diplomacy for it.
- Location
- Austria
But that's exactly why I want to use it - to cajole their best shinies out of our neighbours. Particularly anything metal-related out of both metalworking civs.
Like AN described it, it's basically driving a truckload of gold to their lawn and challenging them to find something as good. Basically a way to brag their shiny ideas out of them, I think. Good if we are really high on Diplomacy, which we should be after several turns of Trade policy.
We are going to be at 9 diplomacy next turn, so we can afford to gift salt and see what it shakes out.
- Location
- United States
Besides the metal workers, what do the other civs have exactly? IIRC the DP don't have metal tech (only the pottery tech), the TH don't have anything new that we've heard of, and the nomads are the nomads.
The only ones we know of that have any tech we don't are the DP and the metal workers basically.
- Location
- Austria
Well, that's the point: figuring out what can we see if we poke them this way.
- Location
- Asia
X][Main] New Settlement - Southern Shores
[X][Secondary] Trade Mission - Highland Kingdom
[X][Secondary] Trade Mission - Thunder Horses
[X][Kick] The Garden
[X][Secondary] Trade Mission - Highland Kingdom
[X][Secondary] Trade Mission - Thunder Horses
[X][Kick] The Garden
Lee see. If we go to the ancient Egyptian, we might get reed, which we could turn into paper. If we trade with the swamp people, we might get swamp related goodies. Southern Hill People got more advanced metalworking.
- Location
- United States
...you do realize i'm the one who suggested gifting salt to the DP, right? I'm not and have never said not to, I just voiced my wariness on switching policies to trade and spending several turns just to gift salt for tech.
Well, that's the point: figuring out what can we see if we poke them this way.
[X] [Main] New Settlement - Southern Shores
[X] [Secondary] Copper Mine
[X] [Secondary] Copper Mine X2
[X] [Kick] The Garden
A good plan. Next turn we can freely change policy to expansion so our provinces can continue expanding our civilization and build provinces, while we can secondary trade mission our two neighbors and main a gifting of salt if peace still reigns. There should be an obvious synergy effect, particularly given the gifting of salt should activate the Dead Priests social trait we've just learned about and due to the fact that they know it can be used to heal due to our previous gift of knowledge.
[X] [Secondary] Copper Mine
[X] [Secondary] Copper Mine X2
[X] [Kick] The Garden
A good plan. Next turn we can freely change policy to expansion so our provinces can continue expanding our civilization and build provinces, while we can secondary trade mission our two neighbors and main a gifting of salt if peace still reigns. There should be an obvious synergy effect, particularly given the gifting of salt should activate the Dead Priests social trait we've just learned about and due to the fact that they know it can be used to heal due to our previous gift of knowledge.
- Location
- United States
There's a few problems with this. We have no contact with the Egyptians (if they exist), we have no contact with the swamp people besides peripheral awareness of them (they're too far away anyways), and we're occupying the Southern Hills this turn so they'll either attack us or join us. If they attack I doubt they'd accept our tribute in exchange for tech as they'd likely see it as a peace offering.
- Location
- Austria
We do not know the routes to those; two metalworkers, HK, nomads (wherever the fuckers are), Thunder Speakers, and Xohyssiri are our options. We can get *something* out of most of them, I assume; for example, opium seeds and imported cotton from HK and Xohyssiri, bronze from metalworkers, better horsing techniques from the Thunder Speakers and so on.
I mean...Salt Gift after one-two turns of Trade Policy just makes sense to me, honestly.
I was thinking about pairing a sailing mission with salt anyway.
- Location
- United States
I thought it was agreed that what was discovered was brass, not bronze?
- Location
- United States
Eh, that makes it reliant on dice rolls and the possibility that they're there (which they might not be...they could just be some other civ). I'm not sure people will vote for that.
Edit: Sorry for the double post, i'm gonna go to sleep.
- Location
- Austria
It was? I missed it, though it does make sense - brass is yellow-ish in colour, after all, while arsenic bronze is more silver-ish, according to the Wikipedia.
EDIT: Also, what Policies do include More Boats? I hope Trade and Expansion both do, otherwise, we have to do it manually.
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Okay lets see:
-Thunder Speaker conflict with Thunder Horse - When this ends, they will raid the Dead Priests and Highland Kingdom again. ETA Unknown, can be any time from next turn to 10 turns later.
-Highland Kingdom Megaproject focus - When this ends, they will resume fighting the Thunder Speakers and Dead Priests. ETA 4 turns.
-Dead Priest recovery from plague - When this ends, they will resume raiding the Thunder Speakers and the Highland Kingdom for slaves. ETA Unknown, most likely to be within the next 2 turns, due to our sharing the treatment.
Once any of the above three start up, Trade Mission failure rates will increase dramatically.
-Opium knowledge - We currently have healers who know what the Opium flower looks like, and can specifically trade for it with the Highland Kingdom. ETA 1-2 turns before they die, at which point we have greater difficulty to get the right plant and need to figure out how to use it again.
-Law interference - The Highland Kingdom is currently codifying its laws. A trade mission here carrying tablets of our laws will allow them to accelerate the progress of the project at the cost of incorporating ideas from our culture into their first written law. This is an extremely powerful cultural influence vector and the best way to sneak one of our traits into their culture in place of the Law upgrade. ETA 4 turns, but each turn they will have more of it codified, which means less likely that our ideas will be embedded in their legal code.
The Thunder Speakers gates access to the Eastern Thunder Horse, who have the metalworking breakthrough.
In other words, if we want to set things up to obtain as much metalworking knowledge as possible, then we need as many trade routes to metalworkers as possible, which also prevents our supply of imported metal from being cut off by war. We can exert diplomatic leverage in this case.
We skipped the discovery of ores by trade missions.
We skipped the discovery of smelting by refugees.
We already know how to work metal. We merely do not have metalworking on an industrial scale.
We can't Salt Gift our way to advanced metalworking until we have direct trade access to enough metalworking civilizations to look unimpressed when they reveal their secrets.
Current windows of opportunity:
-Thunder Speaker conflict with Thunder Horse - When this ends, they will raid the Dead Priests and Highland Kingdom again. ETA Unknown, can be any time from next turn to 10 turns later.
-Highland Kingdom Megaproject focus - When this ends, they will resume fighting the Thunder Speakers and Dead Priests. ETA 4 turns.
-Dead Priest recovery from plague - When this ends, they will resume raiding the Thunder Speakers and the Highland Kingdom for slaves. ETA Unknown, most likely to be within the next 2 turns, due to our sharing the treatment.
Once any of the above three start up, Trade Mission failure rates will increase dramatically.
-Opium knowledge - We currently have healers who know what the Opium flower looks like, and can specifically trade for it with the Highland Kingdom. ETA 1-2 turns before they die, at which point we have greater difficulty to get the right plant and need to figure out how to use it again.
-Law interference - The Highland Kingdom is currently codifying its laws. A trade mission here carrying tablets of our laws will allow them to accelerate the progress of the project at the cost of incorporating ideas from our culture into their first written law. This is an extremely powerful cultural influence vector and the best way to sneak one of our traits into their culture in place of the Law upgrade. ETA 4 turns, but each turn they will have more of it codified, which means less likely that our ideas will be embedded in their legal code.
The Highland Kingdom gates access to the Southern Hill People, who are metal workers. We'd have a sea route to them, but sea routes limit tech transfers a great deal, as we've seen from the Metal Workers. Only a few traders fit on a ship compared to longer caravans. Additionally, they also have Cotton since forever and they have Opium.
The Thunder Speakers gates access to the Eastern Thunder Horse, who have the metalworking breakthrough.
In other words, if we want to set things up to obtain as much metalworking knowledge as possible, then we need as many trade routes to metalworkers as possible, which also prevents our supply of imported metal from being cut off by war. We can exert diplomatic leverage in this case.
Because we have already done it. Twice.
We skipped the discovery of ores by trade missions.
We skipped the discovery of smelting by refugees.
We already know how to work metal. We merely do not have metalworking on an industrial scale.
That's what the trade routes are FOR. Salt Gift can only get stuff from civilizations we're in contact with. By expanding our trade routes, we can Salt Gift further civilizations to gain their stuff.
We can't Salt Gift our way to advanced metalworking until we have direct trade access to enough metalworking civilizations to look unimpressed when they reveal their secrets.
- Location
- Source of confusion itself.
She could also be seen as a tsundere by that definition. Or one of the rare mixes that are both. Which would be really fun!
I mean. Those have extreme personality changes of the drop of a hat! Can you imagine a very important neurotic god?