I would like to remind people that, after this, we'll need to go back to doing Expand Holy Sites. We still have some more to do before every province has enough shamans that literacy stops being a problem.

We get Art and Mysticism out of any engineering megaproject. Let's see what form it takes.

But more Holy Sites probably will be a part of solution to cultural drift: monolithic religion enforcing cultural mores (in our case, The Law, because we tied it into Spiritual values via Harmony -> Symphony) should work, I guess. And more literate people around to decipher The Law.
 
[X] Dead Priests (One compatible value: The Greater Good)
[X] [Main] Saltern
[X][Secondary] Study Health
[X][Secondary] Study Health x2
[X][Kick] Saltern
 
[X] Dead Priests (One compatible value: The Greater Good)
[X] [Main] Saltern
[X][Secondary] Study Health
[X][Secondary] Study Health x2
[X][Kick] Saltern​
 
Just to throw something in the shit pile, we currently have taken study stars four times in a row. Now that the provinces are in mega project support mode, they're not able to continue that for us. Are you guys willing to lose that amount of progress?
 
Just to throw something in the shit pile, we currently have taken study stars four times in a row. Now that the provinces are in mega project support mode, they're not able to continue that for us. Are you guys willing to lose that amount of progress?
We get a reward every 3 times in a row (we got the meteor fragments from it last time) and then it resets. We have effectively only done it 1 time in a row.
 
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Just a question, why do we prioritize Saltern over Garden?
Saltern together with Southshore settlement would have a good synergy, possibly cutting down on necessary actions.

We also just made giant strifes in our understanding of hygiene, and are studying health again, making gardens now could synergize very well with that.

The curent plan seems very counterproductive to me.

[X] Dead Priests (One compatible value: The Greater Good)
[X] [Main] The Garden
[X][Secondary] Study Health
[X][Secondary] Study Health x2
 
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Just a question, why do we prioritize Saltern over Garden?
Saltern together with Southshore settlement would have a good synergy, possibly cutting down on necessary actions.

We also just made giant strifes in our understanding in hygiene, and are studying health again, making gardens now could synergize very well with that.

The curent plan seems very counterproductive to me.
The idea of selling salt to people distracts the voters from everything else.
 
Personally I just want to finish a megaproject within a single turn, in order to impress the DP guys that are currently staying with us,

While The Garden has a greater chance to accomplish this, the Saltern has the possibility to capitalize on the Good Will we build up last mid turn by starting to produce huge quantities of salt while the sickness rages on

Edit:
The saltern also has the chance to unlock the taming and domestication of Honeybees, as that would be the next logical in order to mass produce the magic potion for either trading or health aid missions
 
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Just a question, why do we prioritize Saltern over Garden?
Saltern together with Southshore settlement would have a good synergy, possibly cutting down on necessary actions.

We also just made giant strifes in our understanding in hygiene, and are studying health again, making gardens now could synergize very well with that.

The curent plan seems very counterproductive to me.

[X] [Main] The Garden
[X][Secondary] Study Health
[X][Secondary] Study Health x2

Because salt is overall a hilariously good commodity: easy to transport, insanely useful and valuable, and now part of solution which helps people to survive cholera (well, generally fevers).
Basically, I am picking it not because Garden is bad, but because Salt is outstandingly good.

The idea of selling salt to people distracts the voters from everything else.

Why selling? Salt is glorious. For preserving food, for spicing it up, for healthier diet...also, because it will be a coastal megaproject, maybe netting us some more seafaring experience.

Honestly, with new Copper Mine, I am tempted to double main it next; but, like, salt.
While people have used canning and artificial refrigeration to preserve food for the last hundred years or so, salt has been the best-known food preservative, especially for meat, for many thousands of years.[8] A very ancient salt-works operation has been discovered at the Poiana Slatinei archaeological site next to a salt spring in Lunca, Neamț County, Romania. Evidence indicates that Neolithic people of the Precucuteni Culture were boiling the salt-laden spring water through the process of briquetage to extract the salt as far back as 6050 BC.[9] The salt extracted from this operation may have had a direct correlation to the rapid growth of this society's population soon after its initial production began.[10] The harvest of salt from the surface of Xiechi Lake near Yuncheng in Shanxi, China, dates back to at least 6000 BC, making it one of the oldest verifiable saltworks.[11]

Salt might be not as good as metalworking, but it is fucking close.
 
Honestly, with new Copper Mine, I am tempted to double main it next; but, like, salt.

Personally I would rather wait with the Copper mine until we have change our province policy towards research in order to archieve the maximum synergie via

Main Copper Mine
Main Study Metal
Province action
Study whatever (as at this point all our study action have some synergie with Study metal)
 
[X] Dead Priests
[X] [Main] The Garden
-[X][Kick] The Garden
[X][Secondary] New Settlement-Southshore
[X][Secondary] New Settlement-Southshore x2
 
Personally I would rather wait with the Copper mine until we have change our province policy towards research in order to archieve the maximum synergie via

Main Copper Mine
Main Study Metal
Province action
Study whatever (as at this point all our study action have some synergie with Study metal)

I do not wait to wait too much because Main (or Double Main lol) Copper mine will give us tools to make most of other things much easier; I want Saltern right now because, again, salt. Salt is the makere and breaker or civilisations, wars were repeatedly made over it and so on.
And +1 Stability from starting it right now does not hurt.

On that note, why are we at Stability 1? We were at S0, spent 1 on accepting refugees, gained 1 from spreading Strong Opinions on Medicine...did TGG trigger on Stability loss from refugees, or...
oh.
I get it.
Immediate +1 Stability from Strong Opinions On Medicine caused LoO to grow into Cosmopolitan Acceptance, which does not punch us into Stability for the small refugee numbers. Thus, we did not get -1 Stability from them and got +2 Econ literally for free. Lol.
 
I do not wait to wait too much because Main (or Double Main lol) Copper mine will give us tools to make most of other things much easier; I want Saltern right now because, again, salt. Salt is the makere and breaker or civilisations, wars were repeatedly made over it and so on.
And +1 Stability from starting it right now does not hurt.

On that note, why are we at Stability 1? We were at S0, spent 1 on accepting refugees, gained 1 from spreading Strong Opinions on Medicine...did TGG trigger on Stability loss from refugees, or...
oh.
I get it.
Immediate +1 Stability from Strong Opinions On Medicine caused LoO to grow into Cosmopolitan Acceptance, which does not punch us into Stability for the small refugee numbers. Thus, we did not get -1 Stability from them and got +2 Econ literally for free. Lol.
Or the medicine option netted us 2 stability instead of just the 1 immediate (as there was a chance for extra).
 
Also, Saltern + Study Health probably have synergy too, because of possibly studying health effects (both positive and, in the case of eating too much of it, negative) of salt.
 
Personally I just want to finish a megaproject within a single turn, in order to impress the DP guys that are currently staying with us,

While The Garden has a greater chance to accomplish this, the Saltern has the possibility to capitalize on the Good Will we build up last mid turn by starting to produce huge quantities of salt while the sickness rages on

Edit:
The saltern also has the chance to unlock the taming and domestication of Honeybees, as that would be the next logical in order to mass produce the magic potion for either trading or health aid missions

I am pretty sure we won't be able to finish Saltern in one turn.

Together with a Southshore settlement I would say maybe, and it would have been a big maybe, but we won't get around 6 main actions necessary to finish Saltern with current plan.

We would have finished Garden, though.
 
Together with a Southshore settlement I would say maybe, and it would have been a big maybe, but we won't get around 6 main actions necessary to finish Saltern with current plan.

We don't need 6 main actions
The Saltern needs 4-7 commitment/main actions, considering that we take 4 commitment/main actions this turn & get twice the Symphony bonus (once from the megaproject & once from the Kick), there is the distinct possibility that it might be enough to finish it, simple because we fullfill the minimum conditions within a single turn, which might give out effects on it's own as basically our whole civ dedictates a whole gen on not only starting, but also finishing this mega project

Which is especially scary & impressive as normally mega projects are things that need several generations to finish
 
Clearly, there is only one true answer to all of life's woes.

[X] Dead Priests (One compatible value: The Greater Good)
[X] [Main] Great Dam
-[X] [Kick] Great Dam
[X] [Main] The Garden
-[X] [Kick] The Garden

Synnnnneeeerrrgyyyyyy
 
Now feeling better rested, analysis!
Diplomacy 5->7

Lost one point from choosing to promote the knowledge, then gained THREE from the returns.
So mechanically we sent a free Trade Mission to everyone.

Economy 5->7

Just the refugees. Nothing to see here.

Stability 0->1 (confident)

We lost a point to the refugees, and then gained two points from charity.
Giving shit away is a much nicer way to perform a Grand Sacrifice, incidentally, than setting it on fire, if only it wasn't so easy to game.

Mysticism 6->7

Dead priests sent us some priests. How nice.

Prestige 4->5

And our fame grows in the spreading.
I think we check this in some diplomacy events, since it looks like the last time the HK tried to twist our arms our Prestige scared them off.
We also spend it when making questionable decisions(to the people), so it might count as an achievement list for satisfying the people regarding knowing what we're doing here:

Medicine
Ancient human anatomy
Empirical primitive sanitary theory
Herbalism
Oral rehydration therapy
Ritual cowpox inoculation
Spiritualism
And with the gift from the Dead Priests, we've filled out the biggest gap in our medical knowledge. We're great with drugs, prevention and analysis, but our taboo of disturbing the dead makes for poor anatomy and surgery.

Also as a minor reminder, our bonuses going into the Main Health vote this turn:
-Dead Priest Healers(new)
-Observance boost to all Study action
-Symphony boost to Spiritually harmonious actions
-Sacred Warding boost to Study Health actions
-Carrion Eaters boost

Wonder if Protective Justice and Honorable Death comes into play here. The DP healers will be very surprised at having VOLUNTEERS do this, so if we're lucky we might discover surgical techs like painkillers, stitches or cauterization?

Compared to Saltern:
-Divine Stewards boost to land management actions
-Symphony boost to coordinated actions
-Code of Law boost to policy actions


Trait wise:
Land of Opportunity
You welcome all, offering food and shelter if they will contribute to your community. Sometimes these newcomers behave badly, and sometimes they bring strange new ideas, but in general they strengthen your community, especially in the long run
Pros: Enhanced absorption of new ideas, +1 social value from current or historical neighbours, whenever a neighbour suffers a stability drop, have the option to also suffer a stability drop in exchange for a large boost to Econ and technological and social advancement by absorbing especially large numbers of people
Cons: Many think you weak, not accepting the needy can cause stability drops, sometimes you get values you didn't expect

To
Trait Fusion
Land of Opportunity + Greater Good -> Cosmopolitan Acceptance
The People see not outsiders but fellow humans in need of assistance, and are always willing to offer aid, knowing that even when friendship is uncertain the act of offering is a cleansing one.
Pros: Enhanced absorption of new ideas, +1 social value from current or historical neighbours, whenever a neighbour suffers a stability drop have the option to also suffer a stability drop in exchange for a large boost to Econ and technological and social advancement by absorbing especially large numbers of people, the first Econ boost a turn only has a chance of causing a stability drop rather than a guaranteed drop
Cons: Many think you weak, no longer have the option to turn away the needy, sometimes you get values you didn't expect

Main changes:
-the first Econ boost a turn only has a chance of causing a stability drop rather than a guaranteed drop
-no longer have the option to turn away the needy

This basically shifts it down one step of Stability loss when absorbing refugees now, in exchange for being unable to say no. Stability wise, it's neutral on LoO, basically we make "Accept a significant number" the best and cheapest option.
It also makes pestilence slightly harder to deal with because we find it difficult to outright close borders, though our bonuses are handling it so far.

However, the true drawback here is that space will become a problem, by being unable to refuse, we'd need to maintain a buffer of economy slots as well or face overcrowding.

Some considered that the demons only inflicted their curses on bad people, but others countered that even if the leadership were wicked there were still innocents among them that could suffer.
Superstition applying here. Our people are starting to consider that disease might arise from sin and impurity, based on their observation of the lowlands.

Some of this is reversed cause and effect. We consider disturbing the dead to be sinful, and by extension, decomposition and filth of all kinds to be sinful.
People have forgotten that many of our taboos and laws stems from avoiding disease, so they are getting it the wrong way round, that disease means they have sinned.

Better yet, our primary punishment for breaking the law is to handle corpses, garbage and human waste. Which means people half-exiled for offenses will get sick at some point. Which just proves that breaking the law makes you sick right?

After all, this is just what is naturally observed! Common sense to the People! Those who commit sins get diseased, therefore being diseased means you have hidden sins or are cursed by association with someone with hidden sins.

Totally worth it of course, culturally, as much as it might horrify some people.
Three years after the traders went out, a most curious delegation was brought to the attention of the king. A trader from the Thunder Horse had with him a number of odd 'guests', foreigners who required translation. Inviting them in, the king was introduced to the representatives of the Xohyssiri - who the People had called the Dead Priests since time immemorial.
Interesting, I think this might have to do with the Thunder Horse lack of centralization. Their leadership won't bar their traders from dealing with an enemy, just as they won't bar their warriors from raiding whoever they like.

Or possibly they extracted a promise under duress.
Well tanned men of dark hair and long beards carefully tied into braids, they bore tattoos of abstract and inscrutable design upon their hands and necks and had polished stone discs within their ears. They wore otherwise undecorated white cotton robes and had a definite air of wisdom and spiritual power about them. Assistants from the Thunder Horse trader brought in large tablets of dark black stone upon poles and began laying them out at the instruction of one of the Dead Priests.
Tech/Culture the DPs have:
-Braided hair - You see this often in warrior cultures, as cutting hair is difficult with stone tools, the warriors often braid and coil their hair and beards to make it harder to grab by an enemy. This only got more widespread as armor improved, since braided hair underneath a helmet served as shock absorbers which improved survivability.

-Tattooing - It's has many possible origins. Though the DP variant is likely evolving from Scarification since I doubt they'd be applying a slave practice on the priest caste
--Slave marks - Branding slaves to clearly identify their status(especially if hereditary) and purpose. Then evolved to tattooing as a more refined way to handle bred/tribute slaves over war slaves.
--Scarification adaptation - Warriors tended to get significantly injured. Strong and successful warriors tended to survive getting injured and tended to become leadership, resulting in scars as a sign of leadership. When it became impractical for would be leaders to be scarred from battle as things changed, they got ritually scarred as a sign of leadership. Which then changed to using tattoos to differentiate them from battle scars on slaves and pox scars on the infected. Then they likely adapted things further as time went by to mark different social roles.
---Incidentally, the Ymirri equivalent of this should be white hair, as our leaders are universally older the more authority they have. We'd probably see people start using wigs or bleaching if they attain power young to show that they are humble and wise.
--Medical accident - Unlikely to be this, but anyone with needles and herbs would probably realize that certain herbs had different effects when directly injected. Some of these are also permanently discoloring.

-Earrings - Piercings. Same as scarification, it's basically proof of fitness to survive infection. You see this emerge in areas frequently afflicted by plagues(like the lowlands), where being able to demonstrate in a non-disfiguring manner that you are resistant to infection is oh so very sexy.

-Religious texts - Seems that they might have done a project of their own to set their surgical lore in stone to avoid it being lost.

-Metal tools - They almost certainly have this, or scribing this level of detail into stone is going to be nearly impossible.

Materials:
-Cotton - This must have been the "textile" mentioned long ago that the Western Confederacy imported from across the DP tributaries to the east. As mentioned, this crop is very harsh on the land, consumes stupidly high amounts of water and is the single most comfortable fabric until you get access to silks. A powerful reason to become one of their tributaries, if you can dump your undesirables to the DPs and get cotton in trade. And as a bonus, you can breed it in pure white strains(which evidently they've done, unless they discovered bleaching), so it's very easy to dye in distinctive patterns compared to other fabrics, where the native color will produce unpredictable effects. Full robes of cotton are expensive, representing hundreds of man-hours of skilled labor each, from planting to the finished product

-Basalt - Well, probably basalt. It's the most likely dark black stone, is resistant to weathering and abuse. Good for permanent writings. Kind of labor intensive to ship though, I don't think it's found natively on floodplains, since it's igneous rock, and transporting STONE long distances is ouch.

-Gold - That is a fuckton of gold they're using there. Sounds like they have a mine somewhere for gold, and know about working metal with heat(which you need to melt gold to cast your words in immortal stone). Alas, this form of writing may be imperishable to the elements, but highly perishable to men, who'd consider the art and knowledge to be of far less value than the shiny.
"They say that it is repayment for knowledge. In their custom, something given must be paid back, and something given freely must be paid back twice. Your sharing of knowledge - the Thunder Speaker also has our gifts of thanks for that by the way - was so strong that they sent a delegation to ask us for assistance in sending their gift to you, despite the fact that we're not exactly friends with them, as they figured the journey would be difficult and communication near impossible without a go between," the trader explained, adding on, "They also paid us considerably for this." After that, he began to speak in a foreign language, probably relaying what he just said along to the Dead Priest delegates.
And here we see their evolved form of Eye for an Eye, likely the trait enhancing their tributaries, by ensuring fair trade. While we've evolved the trait with an eye to minimizing harm, they've evolved it towards fairness.
Do Unto Others as they have done unto you.

...it also in hindsight, ensured that the DPs will never stop fighting anyone who fought them, because violence freely given has to be paid back twice over, one way or another.
The members of the council went to inspect the tablets being set out, and found that in the smooth black stone there were drawings that had been carved into the surface and then the cut marks had been filled in with gold to create dazzling highlights, showing rather ghoulish pictures of people who appeared to have been butchered, surrounded by foreign writing. Those who saw them were obviously shocked, but the king and the Spirit Chief kept the upset of the others from spilling over, even as they were wary and suspicious, and asked darkly, "What is this?"

As had been observed previously, a long history of human sacrifice means deep knowledge of anatomy, including living bodies. Cadaver studies are inherently limited because you only have the shape and connections, while human sacrifice gives you a better look at things while they're still running.

Also highlight here how our Advisor and Chief system helped avoid a screwup here. The other Advisors didn't understand what they were looking at and thought this might be something bragging about their atrocities.
The King had the experience(especially from our Royal Audience with migrants or the like) to realize that he might be looking at a culture clash, and made sure that we let them finish talking first before making a decision.
The Spirit Advisor realized that knowledge was being conveyed here, and wanted elaboration.
And then nearly started drooling once they elaborated.
"This is their sacred Book of the Living, a guide to how the body is laid out, the various diseases and injuries of the organs, and every treatment they know against each of these. They told me that while they understand that many do not like how their ancestors acquired this knowledge, they themselves are only from the healing caste of their priesthood, who are forbidden from actually performing any sort of sacrifice. They consider their own lives to be a component of the payment towards your generosity, but ask that if they are to be killed that they be able to give you a proper translation of the Book of the Living first so that you might make use of it. They are also instructed to share their knowledge with your healers as well," the trader explained.
This is a megaproject, I'm think. It's to Medicine what The Law was to social order.

And we see also that they have their own dedicated caste of healers like we do...forbidden from conducting sacrifices so as to avoid malpractice from "knife slipped and then claim it's a sacrifice"?

The trader and the leader of the Dead Priest delegation had a bit of a conversation before the trader replied, "They say that it is an obligation for them. I don't know if I understand it precisely, but their spirits teach them and compel them to return all favours and insults in turn and time. The gift of life is the most precious gift possible, so in sending them a solution for the blue plague, they must repay life saving magic with life saving magic or their own gods will destroy them for their disrespect."

And we get further confirmation of their traits. This probably means that those who get sacrificed either owe society a great debt(murderers, and other serious crimes), or gain a great deal for their lives(freedom for family of sacrificed slaves?)

I wonder if they gained this trait after their defeat and being hounded southwards, or if it was from before that.

So, DP Trait profile:
Social
-The Greater Good - We know this already. Make sacrifices for the good of all

Spiritual:
-Eye for an Eye -> Do Unto Others - Do unto others as they would onto you. Return all debts twofold, for good or ill.
-Life is Sacred - Something for spending lives wisely or getting payback? Could be a taboo or superstition instead?
-Very Angry Gods - The gods are easily offended and need regular appeasement. Could be a taboo or superstition instead?

The council look over the stone faced men who claimed to be healers with intense suspicion, before the king glared at them all and said, "Enough! It is the way of the People that all who come in peace be greeted warmly and offered food and shelter. So long as they do not violate our laws and ways I see no reason to turn these men away, and if they wish to work for us in teaching - teaching that will be carefully examined and reviewed by our wisest shamans - then I also see no reason to deny them such work. We will also of course offer repayment for those of our guests among the Thunder Horse who may wish to linger here and aid in translation until we may speak with these healers without an intermediary."

While this did not immediately turn all frowns to smiles, it did shame the majority into polite neutrality. Even if the gift were strange and distasteful, the chiefs and councilors could be reminded to take it as it was fairly obviously intended - an honest gift from outsiders. A few of the more spiritually apt even considered what some of the carvings seemed to be demonstrating and wondered if perhaps the wickedly obtained knowledge might actually be of use.

And heres our new trait. Being foreign is not a sin, Intent matters.
I'm getting the sense that this will set up for some kind of evolution on Protective Justice eventually.

Copper Mine - A source of copper is known within the People's territory, and it can be expanded to produce not just small amounts of the ore for art purposes, but into a full fledged mine, but the effects are currently unpleasant. Stability cost can be reduced if a way of mitigating the ecological damage can be developed.
*S: -3 Econ, +5 Econ next turn, other effects
*M: +3 Econ, other effects
Stability costs all gone now.

Very VERY valuable as Main, though I don't think we want the Secondary as much.
Study Metal - You have worked out the important features of metals like copper, silver, and gold, but are there other metals one can find?
* S: -1 Mysticism, tiny chance of new insights
* M: -1 Econ, -2 Mysticism, greater chance of new insights
Study metals probably needs Main from now on to be worth anything.
And we likely need at least one Mine to get anything out of that either.
Study Stars - What secrets do the heavens hold when you study the stars and their motions carefully? 7 Uses, 4 Uses in a Row
*S: +1 Mysticism, tiny chance of new insights
Cannot be used as a Main action
As usual, we have some trouble maintaining a streak of this. But on the other hand, we don't NEED to, it's a nice bonus.
Building Place to the Stars would change the value of course.
[] Trade Mission
-Target Options: Highland Kingdom, Thunder Horses, Metal Miners, Lowland Minors, Southern Hill People, Dead Priests, Into the Wild
The trade embargo is over now. We can reestablish trade with everyone...well probably not any time soon. Too many internal projects.
It might be valuable to do it within the next 3 turns though. We have an opportunity to get trade links with all the Lowlands at once, and they won't attack us while they remember us as the bringer of medicine.

Major Holy Sites: Rainbow Trail, Sacred Forest, Holy Sea, Horse Valley, White Circle, Warrior's Rest
The new Holy Site in Northshore is called Warrior's Rest.

Holy site dedicated to the arts of war?
 
Mysticism 6->7

Dead priests sent us some priests. How nice.
Actually I think that was from Study Stars.

And we see also that they have their own dedicated caste of healers like we do...forbidden from conducting sacrifices so as to avoid malpractice from "knife slipped and then claim it's a sacrifice"?
More likely it's religious. The healer caste are about preserving the gift of life, so taking it away would be antithetical to their purpose.

The new Holy Site in Northshore is called Warrior's Rest.

Holy site dedicated to the arts of war?
More likely to be a holy site dedicated to dead warriors who fought in defence of home.
 
[X] Dead Priests (One compatible value: The Greater Good)
[X] [Main] Saltern
[X][Secondary] Study Health
[X][Secondary] Study Health x2
[X][Kick] Saltern
 
[X] Dead Priests (One compatible value: The Greater Good)
[X] [Main] Saltern
[X][Secondary] Study Health
[X][Secondary] Study Health x2
[X] [Kick] Saltern
 
Compared to Saltern:
-Divine Stewards boost to land management actions
-Symphony boost to coordinated actions
-Code of Law boost to policy actions
It's actually:
-Divine Stewards boost to land management actions
-Symphony boost to collective actions, spiritually harmonious actions (because it fights disease), and concerted efforts (because even the provinces are putting in effort to do it)

Written Code of Laws does not give a bonus to policies, it doubles the strength of one. In other words it turns a Secondary into Main, or a Main into a double Main.
 
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