- Location
- Washington, USA
Isn't that what the Five Seal Barrier does? Frozen object's altered time rate means it effectively has nigh-infinite inertial mass, but can still be burned since radiative heat transfer is speed-of-light.
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
-
- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
- Location
- The Soviet Republic of Canuckistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Too late to impact the plan, but asking some questions and registering some predictions:
We might also get chewed up a bit because we can't deliver a Summoner faster than three months. Can we?
In conjunction with asking if he can commit election interference, this might not go well, which is a shame because this could genuinely be a great idea. Cannai being thoughtful and reasonable might come in clutch again.
Cannai is going to be offended that we implied that Dog could have any influence over the choice of Hyena Boss. It's going to be likened to Mist influencing the Hokage vote - a gross violation of their stately autonomy akin to a declaration of war. It's going to be even worse because there isn't a history of actual politics beyond war and power on the Seventh Path (hard to slip spies into enemy territory, and you can't conduct warfare via economics) and the topic might have spiritual significance as a Boss is the Clan.
Why are we floating Yuno over Mari? Mari is a more powerful shinobi and frankly better suited to the task of facilitating peace between Dog and Hyena.
We might also get chewed up a bit because we can't deliver a Summoner faster than three months. Can we?
If we say this Cannai is going to understand that we mean that our motivation is an end to Pangolin expansionism, maintaining Hyena as a buffer between Pangolin and Dog, and peace on the Seventh Path, but the way we're wording it is really going to piss him off.
In conjunction with asking if he can commit election interference, this might not go well, which is a shame because this could genuinely be a great idea. Cannai being thoughtful and reasonable might come in clutch again.
Last edited:
I'm pretty confident that the worldbuilding here is more like:
5SB - Immune to force, not immune to other things (including fire)
With no further thought put into it. IIRC it's vulnerable to acid attack too and that certainly doesn't happen at the speed of light.
It's doubtful at best that the 5SB invulnerability effect is properly described by fast forwarding through time, also....why would that increase inertial mass....?
Why is this offensive to Cannai? Asking that to a Hyena - okay that's offensive. Admitting that it is possible to influence events? Why is that a problem?
Hazou just did this with the Hokage. Ami did it to the Kazekage. It's life as a geopolitical leader, Cannai is a big boy, he can take it.
Some other posters convinced me but I'll be damned if I remember the reason
@Inferno Vulpix @Shrooms want to take this one?
Well I meant help them with their war. So maybe? I don't get why the thought of meddling in another clan's affairs is so offensive tbh.
Anyway, I think you're underestimating the rapport between Cannai and Hazou. I trust him to realize we're trying to act in the best interests of our Clan - even if it's misguided. And roll with that.
We've had a bad habit in the past of going off on our own and doing things (see Cantelope drama) and this time we're coming to him, suggesting some things we could do to help him stabilize his borders and letting him take the lead.
Last edited:
- Location
- U.S.
Significantly altering the flow of time across a thin boundary causes a wide variety of exotic effects. This came up recently, and this page lists a lot of the bizarre behavior you might see. Since 5SBs don't, for instance, instantly shrink into nothingness or explode into plasma when deactivated, we can probably assume it is not simply time manipulation.
- Location
- Washington, USA
It doesn't really increase inertial mass, exactly, but the acceleration resulting from a given force is reduced below the threshold of observation because (from the sealed object's perspective) it's being applied for an extremely short time.
If the volume of the effect is being defined continuously on a molecular scale, acid infiltrates and adjusts those borders by messing with chemical bonds. Electrons involved in that aren't quite speed-of-light, but still very fast and don't have far to go. Observation of 5SB'd spider silk being decomposed by acid under a suitably powerful microscope might someday yield insights into chemistry and physics.
Presumably the chakra involved is also messing with space in some way to minimize such destruction - readjusting wavelengths of light and so on.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Mari's specialty doesn't work very well on non-humans, she's said as much. She's still an effective combatant with her TJ especially with SOTS now and so would be helpful, but Yuno also has SOTS now and is an expert at fighting non-humans as a beast hunter. Mountain Cleaver Style is designed to fight armored monsters like Golems (or Pangolins....) There is also the aesthetic synergy of the death symbolism of Hyenas pairing well with Yuno :^)
In terms of diplomacy, I think Cannai can handle that well enough on his own tbh. Hyena has a bigger issue than Dog at this point and he can say as much/make deals with them. As you point out anyways, it's gonna be at least 3 months before a Summoner can start with diplomacy which is too slow to matter for the conflict IMO.
I'd be OK with Mari or Yuno either one, but I think Yuno is probably a better choice, especially because I think Yuno is a very bad fit for the Rats which we may pursue for Mari.
Nope, but no one can. They have a month to get a new Boss (Conclave grace period from Crusade agreement), and I think they can pretty easily hold out 2 months with a Boss, especially if they make deals with Dog and maybe Bear for some support (neither of them want to deal with Pangolins either so hyena is a useful buffer state.) They'll probably lose some land though.
I'm lost here. If there's an increase in the rate of time passing. Why wouldn't the object subjectively experience more force.
If chakra is doing weird stuff it makes no sense to privilege one hypothesis (in this case, that it's due to accelerated time) over all the others unless there's a very good reason to assume so.
Since there is functionally no observable difference between the hypothesis "chakra is doing some weird stuff with spacetime" and chakra is doing some weird stuff with space, but time is definitely being sped up by a large factor" and the second has significant added complexity penalties I'm happy just disregarding it for the moment. If we get some additional evidence, fine, maybe I'll reconsider.
- Location
- The Soviet Republic of Canuckistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
It's possible that Kurenai is ready but isn't eligible for the Monkey scroll because of politics.
But I agree that I'd like to keep it for Goketsu.
Nah since it's only been ~a month. And it takes 3 months to train someone
EDIT: who is doing her Summoner training? It's not one of the MCs, it's not Oro or Tsunade...
Kei Ruri? Or Porcupine Aiko dude? Whose clan I can never remember.
Last edited:
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I don't think so, based on what we've been told, seems like you need an unbonded scroll to attune to... Kurenai is also gonna have the same problem of genjutsu not being very good against Summons so whatever her secondary attack skill is would be all she can bring to the table for the Hyenas
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
Well, not quite. Not if you take the right perspective. Ahem.
Ways to Think About Stable Time Loops: A Rant
Consider playing a chess game against someone. Suppose you could move a figure to capture a pawn. However, you know that if you do so, it would let your adversary execute a sequence of moves that leaves you at a bigger disadvantage than the benefits of capturing that pawn. So you let this apparent opportunity to hurt your enemy pass, for no immediate/present-time reason to speak of! The actual board-state is such that there's an immediate move available to you that leaves your opponent with fewer figures; if you were a greedy optimizer trying to pick actions that minimize the enemy's forces at every point, you would make that move. But instead, you take actions in the present that are dependent on some potential future board-state. You time-travel! (Indeed, from a certain perspective, all agents are basically time-travel devices.)
So you reject the idea of taking that figure, and instead generate some other potential move you could make. You simulate its future consequences, and perhaps reject it as a bad one as well.
You do that a few more times, and finally hit upon a candidate move that's predicted to lead to good consequences. So, at last, you execute it in reality.
Now consider: what caused this move? It was generated as the output of that process of iterative generation and evaluation of candidate moves. And the move that you actually ended up taking basically represents some "stable solution": a move such that, if its consequences are extrapolated into the future, those consequences lead to that move being taken in the past. I. e., a stable time loop.
Obviously real-life agents aren't actually oracles. They only do their best to approximate this process within the bounds of their computational resources. If we model the whole thing mechanistically, it's all just "normal" causality, atoms bouncing around. But these atoms are doing their best to violate said causality.
"True" stable time loops can be modeled/framed/simulated as the limiting case of this approximation as the available computational resources go to infinity. They're not downstream of "ordinary" causality within the universe, but they're downstream of a process of iterative generation and rejection of potential consistent timelines, which produces the output the moment it finds a stable solution.
And in some situations, we can jump straight ahead to that stable solution: solve for the equilibrium, rather than doing blind trial-and-error.
The counter-argument here would be to note that there are still free parameters. For one, there isn't necessarily a unique stable solution. Much like there isn't necessarily only a single chess move that advances your position, there may be several consistent timelines featuring time-travel: e. g., one where Hazou sends back a letter in a green envelope and one where the envelope is red.
There's two ways to address that:
First, we can fix the sequence in which the iterative-generation process evaluates the candidate solutions. In that case, the first stable solution in the sequence wins. By analogy, when you're playing chess, you're not evaluating moves at random – you have some prior for what a good move looks like, which you've learned from the experience of playing chess. When you're generating candidate moves, you're sampling from this prior.
Similarly, you can define some "universal prior" for which stable solutions are most likely/in what sequence they're generated. And this prior doesn't need to be random – you can postulate a prior that makes sense within the context of the setting. (For example, perhaps the fictional world is being dreamed up by a timeless Lovecraftian monstrosity whose cognition is unbounded (letting it simulate true time-travel), and which likes e. g. dramatic irony, so it picks dramatically ironic solutions.)
Second, we can define some optimization objective/utility function by which all candidate solutions are rated, then pick the stable solution that maximizes it. You'll note that it's actually just a variant on the first idea above, but with the sequence of candidate solutions ordered by these ratings. It's a pretty good way to make the "prior" nonrandom/well-compressible: just pick some simple function to compute the ratings!
And it makes sense within the computationally bounded context of chess as well. If you're playing to e. g. win in the shortest number of moves possible, there is certainly some objectively correct set of move-sequences that achieves this. (E. g., all sequences that win in four moves against the specific opponent you're playing.) By sampling from your prior of "good chess moves", you're just trying to approximate generating this best solution.
So you can pick a unique stable solution to time-travel by defining some highly sensitive simple optimization objective, then find the stable solution that maximizes it.
The most "natural" choice would be some manner of simplicity prior. Intuitively, the most simple stable solution is "no time travel", which, well, is why there is no time-travel around us. But if you perturb the initial conditions somehow in your fictional context (e. g., by an act of eldritch entity forcibly introducing time-travel into the universe), the next-best solution may be "minimal time-travel subject to the perturbation". Hence, you'll most likely end up observing universes in which time-travel is difficult, costly, often lost, kept hidden, kept to a limited number of users, used infrequently, et cetera.
And if you're an agent embedded in a universe like this, and you have a time-travel device in your hand?
Well, you don't want the universe to outcome-pump you into dying, do you? So you'll cooperate with its optimization objective; you'll precommit to engage in time-travel as little as possible and to avoid proliferating it as much as possible. That's how you end up in a universe in which you're reluctantly allowed to engage in some time-travel, after all. If you responsibly self-regulate, then the universe won't feel the need to regulate you manually by hastily dropping an asteroid on your head the moment you're in the vicinity of a time-travel device. Or by steering you away from said devices to begin with.
Or, if you're not that sensible but the universe doesn't have anything on-hand to easily kill you with, maybe your first attempt at exploiting time-travel results in your receiving a letter with "DO NOT MESS WITH TIME" written on it in your handwriting.
Last edited:
- Location
- Washington, USA
Increase in the rate of time passing for everything except the sealed object - it's traveling many more seconds into the future per second of its own subjective time experienced.
Okay this is an extremely confusing way to phrase it IMO, but I now understand what you mean.
Anyway, slowing the affected object's rate of time seems like an overly privileged hypothesis to me at this point. It could be doing that in addition to other things, it could be doing something else.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Thank you very much for explaining this. I now understand (so least somewhat) why people say that Homestuck is so freaky.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Update delayed until tomorrow.
I hit post on the previous message and my brain suddenly noticed that it's 1730 and I'm reading the thread instead of writing the update. Historically, that's a bad sign, so I should simply own it now instead of stressing out.
I hit post on the previous message and my brain suddenly noticed that it's 1730 and I'm reading the thread instead of writing the update. Historically, that's a bad sign, so I should simply own it now instead of stressing out.
- Location
- Yes.
Must be Henge again
- Location
- U.S.
Whats this about a hedge? We're ninja, not gardeners.
- Location
- United States
It's just a good way to see what the range of Hyūga are when they visit the Nara.
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
Only a minor extension of lore drops we've already received, but if you piece these bits together, could it imply that the reality-corrosive quality of Externals comes from them being, in some meaningful sense, "more real" than our world? Such that when their matter and our matter come into conflict, their matter takes primacy and does things like, say, dissolve what they come into contact with. Plausibly this could even connect to the famous flaws of the Thinker clans, if their connection to Thinker entities leads to the reality-corrosive effect directly harming a specific part of their brain.
Notably, if you supposed a wide scale of External entities "more real" and "less real" than our reality, we would not readily be able to observe "less real" entities as they would simply... boil away, surrounded as they are by physics more real than it (Thus it makes perfect sense that we would only observe Externals that are already More Real than us). It's possible that weapons fashioned out of one External might take primacy over the flesh of another, if we select one with higher Reality than our target. Maybe we could even observe this effect between the various Dragon corpses we've obtained?
Last edited:
- Location
- UK
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I feel called out by this post.
(If you don't think MfD features vast amounts of dramatic irony, you ain't seen nothing yet.)
- Location
- Yes.
[X] Armageddon Initiative