Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

Oneiros · May 30, 2023

Lysbeth Succubus said:
Ami isn't us. Ami owned the primary firepower in Mist, and had the people's support, and had everyone of import in Midt in her debt, and Ren had very little support as she was seen as a weak Kage.
I'm really not sure about that. If it protected Kei, sure. If it risked destabilising the world enough for a war, eh.
Not as proficient in politics, which is what we need.

None of these points actually engage with my point. There are lots of paths that we could take to maneuver against Asuma if he was out enemy. You might not think that it's a good idea but you can't deny that their is a possible path.

Lysbeth Succubus said:
If I recall correctly, Tsunade aura'd Mari to suffocation, and Orochimaru killing intent'd Mari into trauma and crying blood. Which one is a favourable matchup

Tsunade has left the village and Oro wouldn't care enough to move hard against us. All Asuma has right now is Naruto who is weak against genjutsu since every clone can be targeted. And even if you're absolutely convinced that Mari would lose any fight we just have to wait a few months.

Crunbum · May 30, 2023

Oneiros said:
Tsunade has left the village and Oro wouldn't care enough to move hard against us. All Asuma has right now is Naruto who is weak against genjutsu since every clone can be targeted. And even if you're absolutely convinced that Mari would lose any fight we just have to wait a few months.

While I agree with the general sentiment that we should stop thinking of ourselves as a weak ass clan, Asuma does have literally all of Leaf at his service, which matters more than any one Essie, especially when he only really has one that is loyal, and even then more to the idea behind the village than to him personallty. That being said, Hazou is basically a Kage level Sealmaster at this point while still literally being a genin if a strong one in combat stats, so he could definitely do something if he started actually investing these abilities into combat power, but it'd rely on preparations, in a direct confrontation we don't really stand a chance, especially with Mari being a Genjutsu/Social specialist too and hence not well suited to a direct essie combat. Especially against a Perfect Jinchuriki which is something that's thought to be make you genjutsu immune outside Sharingan shaenigans.

Lysbeth Succubus · May 30, 2023

Black King said:
Because they're not giving everything they have to the village, it's authority, nor the village's survival?

It got us killswamped. It also arguably got us into this Pangolin situation. And we'd likely be dead/obsolete if we just shared everything with authority figures.

I think "trust" and "relinquishing all secrets" are different things. And saying "no" to the jōnin who just killed everyone disagreeing with them would not have been a smart move.

Oneiros said:
None of these points actually engage with my point.

Yes they do. "Ami isn't us" points out that what Ami did to Ren with years of preparation for her power and safety isn't the kind of thing we can do to Asuma with no preparation, less support, and a lot less personal and political power than she had. We don't have anything of what allowed Ami to do this.

Oneiros said:
There are lots of paths that we could take to maneuver against Asuma if he was out enemy. You might not think that it's a good idea but you can't deny that their is a possible path.

There are lots of things we could try, but I don't think our prospects look any good. When we become essies, sure. Now? Nope.

Oneiros said:
Tsunade has left the village

Left schmeft, really.

Oneiros said:
Oro wouldn't care enough to move hard against us.

If he can keep our body, he'll be delighted.

Oneiros said:
All Asuma has right now is Naruto who is weak against genjutsu since every clone can be targeted.

Also untold ANBU.

Oneiros said:
And even if you're absolutely convinced that Mari would lose any fight we just have to wait a few months.

My opinion is essentially that yes, we should in fact wait at least until then before doing anything that could arise any suspicion at all. I won't argue against that

Black King · May 30, 2023

Crunbum said:
Especially against a Perfect Jinchuriki which is something that's thought to be make you genjutsu immune outside Sharingan shaenigans.

This is not a thing. Naruto's weak to genjutsu and his individual clones are like chunin level and were threatened/beaten by Kagome. Mari should be fine against him.

Lysbeth Succubus said:
And saying "no" to the jōnin who just killed everyone disagreeing with them would not have been a smart move.

Which one is this referring to? The swamp? Because the issue was us going in the first place.

Lysbeth Succubus said:
we should in fact wait at least until then before doing anything that could arise any suspicion at all. I won't argue against that

I don't think anyone disagrees with this. But we have to know to eventually do anything.

Lysbeth Succubus · May 30, 2023

Black King said:
Which one is this referring to? The swamp? Because the issue was us going in the first place.

If we said "no" to following them into the swamp, we probably died on the spot.

Black King said:
I don't think anyone disagrees with this. But we have to know to eventually do anything.

And there's no good way of trying to know right now that doesn't expose us to danger. If there is danger, not looking for it now -including by putting our nose in things or accusing a Clan Head or the Hokage of potential treason- is good. If there isn't, it makes no difference whether we look for it or not, but we can still get in trouble if we look for it now

Oneiros · May 30, 2023

Lysbeth Succubus said:
Yes they do. "Ami isn't us" points out that what Ami did to Ren with years of preparation for her power and safety isn't the kind of thing we can do to Asuma with no preparation, less support, and a lot less personal and political power than she had. We don't have anything of what allowed Ami to do this.

You are def missing the point. First it isn't even important if Ami helps or not. What she did just shows that it is very possible to move against a Kage. Secondly we aren't going to walk up and attempt a coup immediately. If we find out that Asuma did have Akane killed we would start laying the groundwork to move against him. While appearing like we know nothing until we're ready to strike

Lysbeth Succubus said:
When we become essies, sure. Now? Nope.

Mari is almost certainly an essie already.

charlesrwest · May 30, 2023

Oneiros said:
None of these points actually engage with my point. There are lots of paths that we could take to maneuver against Asuma if he was out enemy. You might not think that it's a good idea but you can't deny that their is a possible path.

Tsunade has left the village and Oro wouldn't care enough to move hard against us. All Asuma has right now is Naruto who is weak against genjutsu since every clone can be targeted. And even if you're absolutely convinced that Mari would lose any fight we just have to wait a few months.

Is Mari effected by the "rusty" mechanic?

Crunbum · May 30, 2023

Black King said:
This is not a thing. Naruto's weak to genjutsu and his individual clones are like chunin level and were threatened/beaten by Kagome. Mari should be fine against him.

I think it was mentioned? Could be Mandala effect, but iirc the Tailed Beasts could just wake their jinchuriki if they weren't put under genjutsu themselves, and vice versa, so anyone trying would have to put both of them under at the same time, and presumably its not easy to genjutsu a Biju.

faflec · May 30, 2023

[X] Action Plan: ESealing
Word Count: Low

Sanity-check with Mari.
Take the exam to become a Sealing SpecJ.
- Prepare with Kagome.
- Aim to impress.
- Be respectful of the examiner. Offer a post-exam gift as thanks.
EarthShaping:
- Make more gems. Sell them as planned.
- Make more iron for Asuma. Make Asuma happy.
- Experiment with gems. Figure out what 'things' emeralds or rubies need, and see if other common materials have them.

Black King · May 30, 2023

Lysbeth Succubus said:
If we said "no" to following them into the swamp, we probably died on the spot.

...Weren't we in the village? I don't think Mari and what's his name would kill genin while still in the Mist Village. Seems like an easy way to get found out.

Lysbeth Succubus said:
And there's no good way of trying to know right now that doesn't expose us to danger.

Yes there is? If we discuss it with Mari and Kei and they agree, we now know with no danger.

Lysbeth Succubus said:
If there is danger, not looking for it now -including by putting our nose in things or accusing a Clan Head or the Hokage of potential treason- is good

No one is going to accuse any of them. You realize this right? We just want to know privately and internally so we can move accordingly.

Lysbeth Succubus said:
If there isn't, it makes no difference whether we look for it or not, but we can still get in trouble if we look for it now

It's a lot harder to look for stuff later than it is when it's fresh. We're all but guaranteed to never know/find out if we don't at least start the process now.

Crunbum said:
I think it was mentioned? Could be Mandala effect, but iirc the Tailed Beasts could just wake their jinchuriki if they weren't put under genjutsu themselves, and vice versa, so anyone trying would have to put both of them under at the same time, and presumably its not easy to genjutsu a Biju.

To my knowledge, this is only canon Naruto and the only person to show it is Bee...and it worked on sharingan genjutsu too (though there was a slight delay). Actual Naruto, even in canon, with his super friendship with his beast, still got caught in genjutsu like normal. It's never helped him. Genjutsuing Bijuu also wasn't tough.

Also it's Mandela effect.

RandomOTP · May 30, 2023

[X] Action Plan: ESealing

Lysbeth Succubus · May 30, 2023

Black King said:
...Weren't we in the village? I don't think Mari and what's his name would kill genin while still in the Mist Village. Seems like an easy way to get found out.

No, we were in Noodle (I'm 99% certain this was all only to be able to say it was "the Noodle Incident" later on). Shikigami and Mari hatched a plan to make it look like the higher-ups had sent us to die despite there being an actual mission (basically proxy war between Leaf and Mist, Noodle is Vietnam), killed everyone who didn't like Shikigami offing the ranking officer, and then said "good, now everyone who's alive, follow me if you want to live."

Black King said:
Yes there is? If we discuss it with Mari and Kei and they agree, we now know with no danger.

If they agree that only tells us that they agree. And then Shikamaru notices Kei eyeing him suspiciously and things can actually go awry from there with mister superbrains, especially if there was actual foul play. Because he'd be watching for this. Actually, Asuma could have told him to be on the lookout for any indication to that effect, in order to monitor our stability and loyalty, regardless of either of them's implication or lack thereof.

Black King said:
No one is going to accuse any of them. You realize this right? We just want to know privately and internally so we can move accordingly.

If we only ask what Mari and Kei think and Kei doesn't even act any differently at all later, we've kept it private but didn't actually learn anything. The only way that lets us know privately and internally is if Kei and/or Mari already know/s, and then why didn't they tell us already? If we look for anything more substantial than "what do you two think" we're exposing ourselves to serious risks with no counter at the ready.

Black King said:
It's a lot harder to look for stuff later than it is when it's fresh. We're all but guaranteed to never know/find out if we don't at least start the process now.

Akane is a trustworthy source. When we get her back we'll simultaneously have a lot of power of our own, a sudden boost from getting Akane back, and the best possible person to answer our questions.

In the meantime, we can still investigate the lead of the spice-based body odours, if we can provide Canvass with foreigners who'll have different-scenting sweats, or spices directly. I think that was mentioned but didn't reach a resolution yet.

Shrooms · May 30, 2023

Lysbeth Succubus said:
In the meantime, we can still investigate the lead of the spice-based body odours, if we can provide Canvass with foreigners who'll have different-scenting sweats, or spices directly. I think that was mentioned but didn't reach a resolution yet.

Gaku's reaction was explained after the chapter, we were given reason to believe this will not pan out. Essentially, there's apparently not a good way to source the food or something like that.

Sir Stompy · May 30, 2023

Black King said:
This is not a thing. Naruto's weak to genjutsu and his individual clones are like chunin level and were threatened/beaten by Kagome. Mari should be fine against him

Note, Naruto was probably suffering from double Severes when this roll was made. At least one Severe for sure.

Left-Hand Mutant · May 30, 2023

@Black King @Lysbeth Succubus I think you both have reasonable positions, but are currently talking past each other. FWIW, this doesn't seem very useful.
EDIT: are maybe doing better since I started writing?

@Oneiros what do you think our constructively actionable options are if Asuma and/or Skikamaru are involved? I do want to know if they were involved, but I admit I don't find that information pressingly actionable.
(please note that that I don't consider plans like "kill Shikamaru and Asuma in vengeance", to be constructive, or honoring Akane)

Lysbeth Succubus · May 30, 2023

Oneiros said:
First it isn't even important if Ami helps or not.

That's not my point. You think I'm missing the point because it seems when I say "Ami can do things we can't" you believe I mean "we need Ami's help." No, what I mean is "just because Ami did something doesn't mean we can. Ami had more power, and more tools, and the main power of the country was loyal to her, while Ren was weaker than her on the political scene and could be deposed in the first place."
To be clearer: you say it's possible because Ami did it. I say Ami only could do it because the stack was already rigged in her favour, the balance of power was already tipped.

Oneiros said:
What she did just shows that it is very possible to move against a Kage.

In an extremely specific situation where said Kage was weak personally and as a Kage, plus all the aforementioned advantages. That says nothing about our situation.

Oneiros said:
Secondly we aren't going to walk up and attempt a coup immediately. If we find out that Asuma did have Akane killed we would start laying the groundwork to move against him. While appearing like we know nothing until we're ready to strike

What I keep saying is there is no currently available way to do it that doesn't risk his infinitely superior intelligence services getting wind of it. It's treason to investigate secrets of his, it doesn't need to be a coup for us to be in deep shit. We don't need to even know anything to lay groundwork for our own safety (from anyone, too, rather than assuming Asuma and/or Shikamaru which can make us blind to, say, a Hagoromo plot).

Shrooms · May 30, 2023

Left-Hand Mutant said:
@Oneiros what do you think our constructively actionable options are if Asuma and/or Skikamaru are involved? I do want to know if they were involved, but I admit I don't find that information pressingly actionable.
(please note that that I don't consider plans like "kill Shikamaru and Asuma in vengeance", to be constructive, or honoring Akane)

Asuma was concerned about Leaf disintegrating if it got out that Oro was kidnapping clan heads so I think establishing proof that he arranged the death of one of his own beloved war heroes (and yes we are told Akane was seen as such) would pretty much annihilate his rule. For prep work I'd just focus on getting the stronger allies in good graces (Akimichi and the other founders mostly.)

I don't think Asuma did it though, this is just what I'd do if he did.

FaintlySorcerous · May 30, 2023

Some plan suggestions. I like the tone change but I don't think it goes far enough. I'd like to ask more questions and be less accusatory lest we lose Kei/Snowflake.

Sir Stompy said:
The circumstances around Akane's disapperance are extremely suspicious.

'Circumstances around Akane's disappearance seem suspicious.'

Sir Stompy said:
Go over the timeline

Jan 5, noon: Akane is assigned mission

Team Akane only formed a month earlier.

This is very early for this type of mission.

Jan 5, noon: mission assigned.
- TA formed a month prior: seems (quite) early for a mission.

Sir Stompy said:
Jan 6, (unknown): Attackers enter Fire and find TA's tracks

It was at least half a day (4 hrs) travel for them

Another ~1.5 hours to reach campsite

They must have been camped very close to the border.

Spies wouldn't have followed their trail.

This team was a deliberate attack squad with a prearranged mission

Or perhaps, a team hunting Leaf ninja in general

Jan 6: Attackers enter Fire, find TA's tracks
- 4 hours travel minimum.
  - Another ~1.5 hours to reach campsite
  - Seems like they camped right on the border?
- Attackers actively tracked TA. Indicates premediated assault, mission to kill/capture.
  - Targeting TA at worst, Leaf nin at best.

Sir Stompy said:
Jan 6-7, (before sunrise): Attackers enage TA

They appear to have gained surprise, bypassing Akane's defensive perimeter

Jan 6-7, (before sunrise): Attackers enage TA
- Seems like they ambushed TA, bypassing Akane's perimeter.
  - Follow up with Kagome re: how they could have done this?

Sir Stompy said:
Jan 6-7, (unknown): Attackers leave Fire

Attacking team traveled 7 hrs to leave Fire. They don't appear injured or low on chakra.

To get word about Akane's mission in time. They had to be camped right on the border in advance.

Tying up (minimun) a jounin and 2 chunin like that indefinitely is a significant expenditure of military force. Weak evidence against the team being on standby

Given the tight timing, it seem possible this was arranged before Akane even got her mission

Jan 6-7, (unknown): Attackers exfiltrate.
- Attackers took 7 hours to leave Fire. No sign of significant injury or chakra expenditure.
- They were strong- jonin, multiple chuunin? Significant resources - why commit them?
  - Or they were prepared.
- Ambushes require intelligence - could they have known about Akane's mission?
  - Tight timelines for them to have found out after assignment: could it have been leaked in advance?

Sir Stompy said:
It seems possible that Akane was specifically given this mission by someone in the Tower so that she would be out of the village and vulnerable to this pre-planned attack

Asuma thought it sounded like a botched capture mission.

Most likely suspect is Ruka, who both assigned Akane the unusual mission and didn't report it as overdue.

Ruka was softballed in her questioning by Naruto and Shikamaru

Shikamaru knows about Akane's value as an EM nuke, but seemed convinced she was dead upon hearing news of her tardiness, and unconcerned that she leaked EM.

Given the possibility of a leak from within the Tower his reaction is quite concerning.

Ruka's sloppy interrogation is likely too late to fix. But Hazou thinks it is bizarre that it was acceptable to mindwalk Akane to make sure she never leaked EM accidentally. But the same standard wasn't applied to Ruka. Whose actions could have leaked EM.

We're concerned Akane was set up - sent out with a green team and ambushed.
- Was this possibility seriously considered?
- Asuma thought it sounded like a botched capture mission.
- Ruka is a suspect: she assigned Akane the mission early, didn't report it overdue.
How thorough was Ruka's interrogation?
- Shikamaru knew about EM, but seemed convinced she was dead. Asuma was surprised by this.
- Shikamaru monofocused on Hidan when we mentioned him. Asuma didn't.
- This just seems weird.

I'd cut the bit about the mindwalking: that was a village-destroying threat and we consented to it. Asuma knew he could push us around, but he has no such hold over the Hagoromo. Moreover, his decision here was motivated by Shikamaru's report which I expect he took 100% at face value.

If you want to include something, maybe 'is it inconsistent that Akane was mindwalked for EM security but not Ruka?' That hits better IMO.

Sir Stompy said:
What do we do from here?

There seem to be multiple suspects, Shikamaru, Asuma, Rock/Lightning

How much do we share of our suspicions outside this circle?

Are we crazy?
What do we do next? Investigate privately? Discuss with Asuma? Drop it?

Lysbeth Succubus · May 30, 2023

Shrooms said:
Gaku's reaction was explained after the chapter, we were given reason to believe this will not pan out. Essentially, there's apparently not a good way to source the food or something like that.

Ah, thank you. I forgot that.
Sorry if gruesome, but maybe we can source bodies? We (Leaf) probably have some on ice. Hell, Snuncle might have some that are intact, at least on the olfactory front

Sir Stompy · May 30, 2023

FaintlySorcerous said:
Some plan suggestions. I like the tone change but I don't think it goes far enough. I'd like to ask more questions and be less accusatory lest we lose Kei/Snowflake.

'Circumstances around Akane's disappearance seem suspicious.'

Jan 5, noon: mission assigned.

TA formed a month prior: seems (quite) early for a mission.

Jan 6: Attackers enter Fire, find TA's tracks

4 hours travel minimum.

Another ~1.5 hours to reach campsite

Seems like they camped right on the border?

Attackers actively tracked TA. Indicates premediated assault, mission to kill/capture.

Targeting TA at worst, Leaf nin at best.

Jan 6-7, (before sunrise): Attackers enage TA

Seems like they ambushed TA, bypassing Akane's perimeter.

Follow up with Kagome re: how they could have done this?

Jan 6-7, (unknown): Attackers exfiltrate.

Attackers took 7 hours to leave Fire. No sign of significant injury or chakra expenditure.

They were strong- jonin, multiple chuunin? Significant resources - why commit them?

Or they were prepared.

Ambushes require intelligence - could they have known about Akane's mission?

Tight timelines for them to have found out after assignment: could it have been leaked in advance?

We're concerned Akane was set up - sent out with a green team and ambushed.

Was this possibility seriously considered?

Asuma thought it sounded like a botched capture mission.

Ruka is a suspect: she assigned Akane the mission early, didn't report it overdue.

How thorough was Ruka's interrogation?

Shikamaru knew about EM, but seemed convinced she was dead. Asuma was surprised by this.

Shikamaru monofocused on Hidan when we mentioned him. Asuma didn't.

This just seems weird.

I'd cut the bit about the mindwalking: that was a village-destroying threat and we consented to it. Asuma knew he could push us around, but he has no such hold over the Hagoromo.

Are we crazy?

What do we do next? Investigate privately? Discuss with Asuma? Drop it?

I like most of these, will implement when I get home from work. Should be online approx 730PM EST.

ProperAttorney · May 30, 2023

Lysbeth Succubus said:
Ah, thank you. I forgot that.
Sorry if gruesome, but maybe we can source bodies? We (Leaf) probably have some on ice. Hell, Snuncle might have some that are intact, at least on the olfactory front

Ask Kagome? He's been around and is a big foodie

Left-Hand Mutant · May 30, 2023

Shrooms said:
Asuma was concerned about Leaf disintegrating if it got out that Oro was kidnapping clan heads so I think establishing proof that he arranged the death of one of his own beloved war heroes (and yes we are told Akane was seen as such) would pretty much annihilate his rule. For prep work I'd just focus on getting the stronger allies in good graces (Akimichi and the other founders mostly.)

I don't think Asuma did it though, this is just what I'd do if he did.

That's an avenue I haven't considered. But I don't think "depose the Hokage" counts as constructive, or furthers our goals. I think we would get breif turmoil in leaf, then a Naruto Hokage with a shiny new reason to se us as traitors.

And blackmailing him seems like it would end very badly for us.

FaintlySorcerous · May 30, 2023

Sir Stompy said:
I like most of these, will implement when I get home from work. Should be online approx 730PM EST.

While it doesn't particularly matter given your lead, you likely get my vote for this. I might have further feedback.

I think that wordcount stays the same or similar; I can bring it down if not and I'll do an optimization pass of your reworked plan.

Black King · May 30, 2023

Lysbeth Succubus said:
No, we were in Noodle (I'm 99% certain this was all only to be able to say it was "the Noodle Incident" later on). Shikigami and Mari hatched a plan to make it look like the higher-ups had sent us to die despite there being an actual mission (basically proxy war between Leaf and Mist, Noodle is Vietnam), killed everyone who didn't like Shikigami offing the ranking officer, and then said "good, now everyone who's alive, follow me if you want to live."

This could be the case. I thought it was all a fake mission, hence Ami being mad at Mari for choosing Kei and so on.

Lysbeth Succubus said:
If they agree that only tells us that they agree. And then Shikamaru notices Kei eyeing him suspiciously and things can actually go awry from there with mister superbrains, especially if there was actual foul play. Because he'd be watching for this. Actually, Asuma could have told him to be on the lookout for any indication to that effect, in order to monitor our stability and loyalty, regardless of either of them's implication or lack thereof.

Kei already looks at Asuma with a side eye and she's yet to be caught. I don't think Shikamaru's going to catch her.

Lysbeth Succubus said:
If we only ask what Mari and Kei think and Kei doesn't even act any differently at all later, we've kept it private but didn't actually learn anything. The only way that lets us know privately and internally is if Kei and/or Mari already know/s, and then why didn't they tell us already? If we look for anything more substantial than "what do you two think" we're exposing ourselves to serious risks with no counter at the ready.

We've learned a lot. We've learned that our thoughts and assumptions are substantiated by two of the most in the know people and two of the smartest people in the village.

Looking for more wouldn't do much to us as it's normal to want to investigate the death of a loved one.

Lysbeth Succubus said:
Akane is a trustworthy source. When we get her back we'll simultaneously have a lot of power of our own, a sudden boost from getting Akane back, and the best possible person to answer our questions.

If we get her back, she likely wouldn't know at all. No one thinks Shikamaru and/or Asuma personally killed her. We suspect that maybe they got others to do it. This would mean Akane's useless as a source, she can only point us to the patsies. Unless Shikamaru and Asuma are cartoon villains, then I suppose they'd have the patsies mention them.

Lysbeth Succubus said:
In the meantime, we can still investigate the lead of the spice-based body odours, if we can provide Canvass with foreigners who'll have different-scenting sweats, or spices directly. I think that was mentioned but didn't reach a resolution yet.

I do agree with this and have been advocating for it for a loooong time now.

FaintlySorcerous · May 30, 2023

Black King said:
I do agree with this and have been advocating for it for a loooong time now.

We put Gaku on it and (presumably) the QMs will ping us once it's done.

I forget which plan it passed in, but I think it was one of mine in one of the more recent chapters.

Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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