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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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eaglejarl said:
@faflec, fact check please:

1. Cannai and Enma are not the original Bosses of their respective clans.
2. Pantsā...is? Is not?
3. There was at least one pangolin mentioned in story who had hung out with the Sage. Who was it?
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Sorry, I've been busy with stuff, but _The_Bomb and Paperclipped have the right of it on Enma/Cannai probably not being the original Bosses, and Panda's grandfather having apparently met the Sage (no comment on how true that is, Panda seems...gullible and it could totally have been made-up).

I suspect Pantsa is also not the original boss, since he uses the "for the honour of our ancestors and the glory of the Pantokrator" oath common to most Pangolins, which wouldn't make much sense if he was old enough to have met the Sage and therefore having been among the first generation of Pangolins. Of course, if that's untrue it has its own implications.
 
Paperclipped said:
How many offspring do the koi spawn? Should we expect hundreds of koi that we need to cull down? Will they cull themselves down (e.g. through cannibalism)?
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My understanding is that we negotiated for the right to have a maximum of 25 koi, which would be enforced by the picinists. This number was then upped to 40 as an apology for sending less koi then predicted due to logistical constraints.
 
@Paperclipped would you consider looking at using deceit as a column support for everyone? The ability to hide FOOM for as long as possible is very important IMHO and we are much more frequently in social combat than physical
 
Just for curiosity's sake, how would safe sealmaster interact with getting leveling earthshaping instead of/alongside calligraphy? Maybe as a detour or one of our column stats?

I know there's no guarantee what secret the jutsu has, but it's shiny and *I want it*
 
Twinnstars said:
Just for curiosity's sake, how would safe sealmaster interact with getting leveling earthshaping instead of/alongside calligraphy? Maybe as a detour or one of our column stats?

I know there's no guarantee what secret the jutsu has, but it's shiny and *I want it*
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Same. Personally, I'm hoping that a high Earthshaping level + Iron Ore + Vampiric Dew = Artificial Chakra Metal
 
Twinnstars said:
Well that'd certainly be a way to win the war for leaf.

"Hey Asuma. Want all of our jōnin to use chakra metal everything? Yeah? So do I. That'll be three 'get out of killbox free' cards please."
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"Actually, make that four. You threw us under the bus when Orochimaru came knocking. Yes, yes, back to the wall, war effort, and all that nonsense. Believe me, my empathy is the only reason I'm not charging you five favors and making you negotiate with us through Ami."
 
RandomOTP said:
"Actually, make that four. You threw us under the bus when Orochimaru came knocking. Yes, yes, back to the wall, war effort, and all that nonsense. Believe me, my empathy is the only reason I'm not charging you five favors and making you negotiate with us through Ami."
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To be fair, that situation is more nuanced. Asuma basically used deniability, this is why he didn't stop us from contacting Tsunade and Naruto. He didn't contact Naruto/Tsunade, we did. Because if Tsunade was under orders of Asuma, Oro would have pushed the issue: "Asuma" cannot play who blinks first with Oro, because Oro knows that the Hokage, in his position as Hokage, will always blink first if it protects Leaf, and if he does, it means the top authority of the Village approved of his action, giving him carte blance. Meaning Orochimaru is really incentivized to push his luck for what, in his eyes, in the ultimate prize.
If Tsunade and Shikamaru play who blinks first with Oro, Oro knows that Tsunade is going not going to move and Shikamaru can be crazy enough to pull the pin of that grenade, so he's incentivized to push his luck.
Basically, Asuma studied the Nara's theory of Games.

TL;DR : Asuma involving himself would have made everything worse and he knew it. So he removed himself from the board while praying we could resolve the situation. I know you probably didn't mean it literally, but i want to give my opinion before the idea that Asuma left us to die becomes an underlying assumption in the discourse(Not to say he did not, he kinda did and kinda didn't). This said, it's still a funny joke.
 
Lord Marshal said:
To be fair, that situation is more nuanced. Asuma basically used deniability, this is why he didn't stop us from contacting Tsunade and Naruto. He didn't contact Naruto/Tsunade, we did. Because if Tsunade was under orders of Asuma, Oro would have pushed the issue: "Asuma" cannot play who blinks first with Oro, because Oro knows that the Hokage, in his position as Hokage, will always blink first if it protects Leaf, and if he does, it means the top authority of the Village approved of his action, giving him carte blance. Meaning Orochimaru is really incentivized to push his luck for what, in his eyes, in the ultimate prize.
If Tsunade and Shikamaru play who blinks first with Oro, Oro knows that Tsunade is going not going to move and Shikamaru can be crazy enough to pull the pin of that grenade, so he's incentivized to push his luck.
Basically, Asuma studied the Nara's theory of Games.

TL;DR : Asuma involving himself would have made everything worse and he knew it. So he removed himself from the board while praying we could resolve the situation. I know you probably didn't mean it literally, but i want to give my opinion before the idea that Asuma left us to die becomes an underlying assumption in the discourse(Not to say he did not, he kinda did and kinda didn't). This said, it's still a funny joke.
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I fundamentally disagree with you analysis. If Asuma went to the Tsunade and explained the political fallout she would have done the exact same. The fact that Asuma wasn't willing to do any off the record support of us shows that he is either not aware of the possibility which shows an incredibly large lack of intellectual flexibility. Or that he was unwilling to do the bare minimum to protect his people which shows a large degree of cowardice


The important thing to remember is that since these are subjective opinions about a course of action they can not be evaluated as true or false. They fundamentally depend on your priors and how you weigh certain things in a cost benefit analysis. I weigh them one way you way them another and that's ok. Neither one of us is wrong


Ultimately we learned things about Asuma and how he believes he can act as the Hokage. We should use that knowledge to help understand him better
 
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_The_Bomb said:
My understanding is that we negotiated for the right to have a maximum of 25 koi, which would be enforced by the picinists. This number was then upped to 40 as an apology for sending less koi then predicted due to logistical constraints.
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Yes. Once we have 40 koi, we can stop worrying about the time of year and just always draw from the pond. Otherwise, we're limited by having to let them prepare for spawning so that we can get up to 40 koi.

Oneiros said:
@Paperclipped would you consider looking at using deceit as a column support for everyone? The ability to hide FOOM for as long as possible is very important IMHO and we are much more frequently in social combat than physical
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For Hazou, it would be pretty trivial. In the grand scheme of things, his 24 Deceit is really close to his 33 Alertness. For Kei and Akane, they already have a 50 stat, so Deceit would need to jump to 60, from 10 for Kei and 8 for Akane. Not only would this take a fair bit, but it would also mean that we spend more time with lower combat-relevant stats, something which we're increasingly realizing could be dangerous as a status-quo.

We can always level it just gradually, when we're at detours. This won't get us to ridiculous levels though.

Twinnstars said:
Just for curiosity's sake, how would safe sealmaster interact with getting leveling earthshaping instead of/alongside calligraphy? Maybe as a detour or one of our column stats?

I know there's no guarantee what secret the jutsu has, but it's shiny and *I want it*
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On the one hand, we need in total 5 support stats for Hazou's SC progression. What stats and order we level in matters a lot. If we do Sealing first, we're very squishy. If we do survival stats first, we're not very useful compared to Kei/Akane. If we do ES first, we get unclear, intangible benefits. I don't think ES makes sense as one of the top 1-2 column stats.

On the other hand, we can totally level ES to 50 without making it a column stat because Hazou's build already has 2 40s, allowing us to support the main 50 column stat (Athletics 57 in the Survivable Sealmaster), while also having a 50 ES on top. Given that we unlocked new abilities at ES10 and ES 30, (Effect 2 and 4), I expect that we'll need ES50 (Effect 6) to make more progress on whatever this "shiny" is. It will just take a long time for one of those 50s to clear away -- until Resolve in the 90s. This is too far to plan for, and taking it earlier would compromise our ability to navigate our Sealing stats through the 50s of the pyramid easily.
 
_The_Bomb said:
The impulse is unaffected. Impulse is the integral Force over Time, increasing the time will decrease the force but the impulse will stay the same.
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This is your only warning. Do not break the MfD Physics Masquerade again. Remember, negentropy flows from Physics' antimemetic properties as applied to the QMs. Every slight mistake in the laws of MfD is a fulcrum.
To everyone not in the know:
You are now breathing manually
Also blinking manually
Also cognizant of your own tongue and where it sits on your mouth
Do not imagine an elephant
Do not imagine this post being boring
This post contains no information
*points to behind you* Look, a polycule!
 
Paperclipped said:
For Hazou, it would be pretty trivial. In the grand scheme of things, his 24 Deceit is really close to his 33 Alertness. For Kei and Akane, they already have a 50 stat, so Deceit would need to jump to 60, from 10 for Kei and 8 for Akane. Not only would this take a fair bit, but it would also mean that we spend more time with lower combat-relevant stats, something which we're increasingly realizing could be dangerous as a status-quo.

We can always level it just gradually, when we're at detours. This won't get us to ridiculous levels though.
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Yeah I suspect deceit 40 would be more than enough to effectively hide most things. So not super worried about it

couple more questions: would it be worth it or even possible to switch survivable sealmaster to support all 3 combat stats? It might be a bit selfish but I do want our boy to eventually punch people again.

Second question, how do we feel about having Kei, and Akane if we get her a scroll to use a variation of survivable sealmaster to push CR so that they can summon a boss level combatant? Would be nice to have an essie in our pocket for emergencies. Plus since we are finally investigating nature chakra we hopefully will be able to do chakra refills from the 7th path. Is this something worth considering for Hazou instead of combat stats?
 
Oneiros said:
Yeah I suspect deceit 40 would be more than enough to effectively hide most things. So not super worried about it

couple more questions: would it be worth it or even possible to switch survivable sealmaster to support all 3 combat stats? It might be a bit selfish but I do want our boy to eventually punch people again.

Second question, how do we feel about having Kei, and Akane if we get her a scroll to use a variation of survivable sealmaster to push CR so that they can summon a boss level combatant? Would be nice to have an essie in our pocket for emergencies. Plus since we are finally investigating nature chakra we hopefully will be able to do chakra refills from the 7th path. Is this something worth considering for Hazou instead of combat stats?
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Not really. TJ 47 (eff 50 with IN) is doable, but beyond that we really have to compromise on Sealing if we want to raise up another stat early. 50 TJ isn't bad, our buff stack should be +12 from PKH, +6 from Roki, +3 from Macerators (unless we get a better version of them), +6(?) from Rocket Boots, for a total of ~75, we should be able to keep pace with unbuffed jounin and buffed chuunin for a little while.
 
Paperclipped said:
Not really. TJ 47 (eff 50 with IN) is doable, but beyond that we really have to compromise on Sealing if we want to raise up another stat early. 50 TJ isn't bad, our buff stack should be +12 from PKH, +6 from Roki, +3 from Macerators (unless we get a better version of them), +6(?) from Rocket Boots, for a total of ~75, we should be able to keep pace with unbuffed jounin and buffed chuunin for a little while.
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I would def be ok with effective 50.
 
Reposting from discord:

Is it better to adopt some of our genin/(chuunin? Some of them have been here a year...) now so they're better equipped to survive the war? Having ghost scales/PCJ etc would be pretty useful though I guess there isn't much time to grind it up. Still, war will likely be going for a few months at least and it may save them from an explosive tag or something. Paper said it would probably be a bad idea to let a bunch of genin learn the Pang jutsu in case of info leaks/capture/torture so we may need to restrict it to chuunin and up.

Speaking of which, some of those already-genin have been on our estate for almost a year now, decent chance some of them DID make chuunin. New chuunin is a deadly prospect especially in war.

I know people talk about adopting Lee/Sakura which I'm down for (well, Sakura at least, I'm iffy on Lee but that's a different debate) but we can trade for more slots whenever we want with Seals or something else pretty feasibly. And those SSSSS guys may show up eventually but same thing applies. Hell, we could make them buy their own entry. "Okay, go share your jutsu/seals with the Akimichi in exchange for an adoption slot".

Tldr: we could adopt some estate ninja now to help them survive the war, since they're kinda our responsibility and this is a very dangerous time for them.
 
Shrooms said:
Reposting from discord:

Is it better to adopt some of our genin/(chuunin? Some of them have been here a year...) now so they're better equipped to survive the war? Having ghost scales/PCJ etc would be pretty useful though I guess there isn't much time to grind it up. Still, war will likely be going for a few months at least and it may save them from an explosive tag or something. Paper said it would probably be a bad idea to let a bunch of genin learn the Pang jutsu in case of info leaks/capture/torture so we may need to restrict it to chuunin and up.

Speaking of which, some of those already-genin have been on our estate for almost a year now, decent chance some of them DID make chuunin. New chuunin is a deadly prospect especially in war.

I know people talk about adopting Lee/Sakura which I'm down for (well, Sakura at least, I'm iffy on Lee but that's a different debate) but we can trade for more slots whenever we want with Seals or something else pretty feasibly. And those SSSSS guys may show up eventually but same thing applies. Hell, we could make them buy their own entry. "Okay, go share your jutsu/seals with the Akimichi in exchange for an adoption slot".

Tldr: we could adopt some estate ninja now to help them survive the war, since they're kinda our responsibility and this is a very dangerous time for them.
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I'd be okay with this. Most of it, really (restriction of Pangolin Jutsu to chuunin and above, adopting the newly-promoted, and buying slots with seals).

I suspect the Many-S ninja wouldn't be happy if we made them work for an adoption (in their mind, their entry was already bought by Arikada's assistance in Isan). Maybe we can lead them into the Tower, under the presence of meeting with Asuma, and then throw them in T&I? We'd have to work on how to disable/jail a biosealer (something tells me that they'd be more dangerous than Mizuki)... But Noburi could help by draining them of chakra (like we did with Haru)?
 
RandomOTP said:
I'd be okay with this. Most of it, really (restriction of Pangolin Jutsu to chuunin and above, adopting the newly-promoted, and buying slots with seals).

I suspect the Many-S ninja wouldn't be happy if we made them work for an adoption (in their mind, their entry was already bought by Arikada's assistance in Isan). Maybe we can lead them into the Tower, under the presence of meeting with Asuma, and then throw them in T&I? We'd have to work on how to disable/jail a biosealer (something tells me that they'd be more dangerous than Mizuki)... But Noburi could help by draining them of chakra (like we did with Haru)?
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Velorien said:
The Nara and the Gōketsu would give serious consideration to adopting Arikada or others of the SSSSS.
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RandomOTP said:
I suspect the Many-S ninja wouldn't be happy if we made them work for an adoption (in their mind, their entry was already bought by Arikada's assistance in Isan). Maybe we can lead them into the Tower, under the presence of meeting with Asuma, and then throw them in T&I? We'd have to work on how to disable/jail a biosealer (something tells me that they'd be more dangerous than Mizuki)... But Noburi could help by draining them of chakra (like we did with Haru)?
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We definitely need to off Arikada before he can learn that it was our team that killed his wife.
 
One issue on kei mind is she thinks Mari prefers hazou over kei. One way we can help her is by convincing her there is nothing terrible with being the less favored child. That What matters is the absolute, not relative, love a parent haves for her. More love is always a good thing. And so if keiko thinks the situation where Mari loves kei and hazou with 50 units of love is good. Than kei should also accept a situation where Mari loves keiko with 50 units of love, and hazou with 100 units of love. It's similar to the argument people use for poly relationships, or parents tell their children when new siblings are being born.

Shrooms said:
Still, war will likely be going for a few months at least
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Aren't ninja wars usually quick?
 
roobee said:
Aren't ninja wars usually quick?
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Seem to last around 3 or 4 months based on the dates we were given.
Oneiros said:
Tell Noburi that he's in charge of it and then don't worry about it
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Actually had some thoughts on that: We could have Akane, Mari, Noburi, and Kagome sponsor someone and choose them for adoption since they all have their own students of sorts. Alternatively if we want to virtue signal we could have Haru, Atomu, Reo, and Mai choose. It works out to 4 either way.
Paperclipped said:
We definitely need to off Arikada before he can learn that it was our team that killed his wife.
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ARIKADA: "Dude, fuck yeah! Hated that bitch"
OROCHIMARU FROM THE BUSHES: "Whoa, that's kind of misogynist of you bro"
 
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