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That's not what it says. Crippling an opponent means you won't be trusted again in the future.

It says that crippling an opponent will be interpreted as being too tactically inflexible to be trusted with certain missions such as kidnapping or capturing ninja for interrogation. Naturally, this intra-village effect won't be in place if you can plausibly argue, "I was deliberately trying to cripple those filthy traitors and undermine the enemy Kage by demonstrating the incompetence of his children". As far as the exams are concerned, the consequences of turning somebody into a blind, deaf paraplegic for life as long as it's done in the ring are a shrug and everybody telling the relevant Kage that he needs to train his genin to dodge better.

Blowing off somebody's hands was the specific example chosen when describing the "no big deal" dynamic. Perhaps they won't outright kill Uplift, but I suspect that the thread would be quite unhappy if the burgeoning sealmaster got his hands blown off.



Rules:

@eaglejarl, that means you interpret "has taken" as having an injury? Unusual choice, but okay.



I really don't understand how people think we'd politically survive singling Hinata out... either we leave team Kurenai their word halves, or we don't. There's no option in between that Hiashi can't use to ruin us.

Really? You don't see any reason why Hiashi might want to avoid calling attention to his children's dismal performance?

"We decided to go out of our way to help our friends and allies, and declined to save somebody who was heavily invested in our political annihilation and openly refused to put her duty to Leaf above that from her own pathetically inadequate performance. Whine some more about how Goketsu should have been obligated to drag Hyuuga literally unconscious across the finish line."
 
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Really? You don't see any reason why Hiashi might want to avoid calling attention to his children's dismal performance?

"We decided to go out of our way to help our friends and allies, and declined to save somebody who was heavily invested in our political annihilation and openly refused to put her duty to Leaf above that from her own pathetically inadequate performance. Whine some more about how Goketsu should have been obligated to drag Hyuuga across the literally unconscious across the finish line."
Pretty much this.

Like I've been saying: If we do this, we literally do them a huge favour.

And then a month later, we happen to beat the Hyuga heiress up on the tournament stage.

Well they could get around that by--

*shuts mouth tightly*

No way in hell I'm listing ideas on how they can dig themselves outta this hole.:ninja:
 
@eaglejarl, @Velorien, @OliWhail, I posed several questions; here are the answers I'd propose for them, that I think make most sense.
  • Event 5: Do penalties for injuries transfer between rounds? (No.)
    • E. g.: Hinata's heels were cut during R1, did she receive -25 points again for this at R2's end? (No.)
    • If they don't, did ISC injure people during R2? (Yes. Light, fast-healing injures that barely count as Moderate Consequence.)
      • If yes, did they injure our R1 teammates and/or their R1 teammates? (They did not.)
  • Round 2
    • Did we get ISC's R2 teammates? (Yes.)
      • Injured? Imprisoned? (Yes, both.)
    • Did we get ISC's R1 teammates? (No.)
      • Injured? Imprisoned? (No.)
    • Was Hinata's squad paired with one of ISC's R1 teammates? (Yes. Odds: 2:1.)
    • Did ISC's assigned target include one squad of Team Uplift's R1 teammates? (Yes. Odds: 2:1)
    • Did ISC take word-halves of:
      • Our R1 teammates? (No.)
      • ISC's R1 teammates? (No.)
  • What was Team Kurenai's score after Event 4? (~500 = 90 (Event 2) + ~200 (Event 3) + ~210 (Event 4).)
  • What were the scores of our R1 and R2 teammates after Event 4? (~150 to ~300. Said to be from bottom half, theoretical best-score is 648, assume that our after-E4 score (141) was lowest still in play.)
  • What was ISC's score after Event 4? (~500 = 49 (Event 2) + 298 (Event 3) + ~150 (Event 4).)
@MMKII, seems right? I agree with your analysis, by the way, but I'd still prefer more concrete data. Especially since all of this is something we would plausibly know in-character.
 
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The problem is we're still in the pessimistic scenario that the Red Team HyugaForce is:

Team Kurenai
ISCR1 Squad 1
3 Other Fuckers

This means they can only imprison 3 Other fuckers, and it boosts ISCR1 Squad 1 up as well as Team Kurenai

(Shikamaru thus would almost certainly break his pact with us to get Red Team One into the tourney)

If this isn't the scenario we are in, it doesn't matter anyway because there would be:

3 More injuries: -75
3 More prisoners: -90

For an extra -165
Add in the MAX 180 points you get from the documents

And we get a whopping 15 points. Won't do squattt

Also it is ASTRONOMICALLY unlikely that Team Kurenai is assigned the only Blue Bunker without a Red Team One squad on it.

This is presumably what it would take since he shouldn't break his word to our teammates. (Unless they have his documents, sorry).
...I don't understand what you're talking about. If Kurenai are the only ones not in our prison and turn in their docs, their team doesn't get the points, and they weren't captured anyway, so...?
 
For all we know, Shin used his bloodline to replace Hazou's with a copy which won't be apparent until the tears don't match up with the proctor's half.

We pretty much know he didn't. Not only would he have needed to obtain the special paper used for the word halves, which would undoubtedly involve serious cheating on the part of a proctor, but also sift through the contents of all of Hazou's storage scrolls, in a dark tunnel, and then put everything back together in such a way that Hazou wouldn't be able to tell the difference. It's utterly implausible. Believe me, we spent a lot of time thinking about stuff like this earlier in the exam.

It says that crippling an opponent will be interpreted as being too tactically inflexible to be trusted with certain missions such as kidnapping or capturing ninja for interrogation. Naturally, this intra-village effect won't be in place if you can plausibly argue, "I was deliberately trying to cripple those filthy traitors and undermine the enemy Kage by demonstrating the incompetence of his children". As far as the exams are concerned, the consequences of turning somebody into a blind, deaf paraplegic for life as long as it's done in the ring are a shrug and everybody telling the relevant Kage that he needs to train his genin to dodge better.

Blowing off somebody's hands was the specific example chosen when describing the "no big deal" dynamic. Perhaps they won't outright kill Uplift, but I suspect that the thread would be quite unhappy if the burgeoning sealmaster got his hands blown off.

And yet, after over two weeks of the exam, with 300 teams participating to begin with, there are no crippling injuries as far as we know. At this point, I'm willing to trust this evidence that participants are very unwilling to break the injury rules deliberately, over unsubstantiated paranoia.
 
I'm not sure I want Hinata in the tournament. With her broken bloodline, she's terrifying. The rules have changed since the spar against us/team Clanless.
 
The Hyuuga must be feeling pretty depressed right now. Hiashi failed in his coup. Neji fucked up so hard he only still has a career because we could talk Kei into accepting his minionhood. Hinata got dunked on in E5.

And their main rivals just roflstomped all over every other village's chunin-candidates, proving themselves future S-rankers in the process. Jashin.

...at least Neji is getting Hazou-friendship? So that's something?
 
...I don't understand what you're talking about. If Kurenai are the only ones not in our prison and turn in their docs, their team doesn't get the points, and they weren't captured anyway, so...?
Let me rephrase. There are two scenarios.

1) Shikamaru cannot imprison all of the other members of Red Team HyugaForce, because a squad of his Round 1 Team is on it.

Thus, if he does deliver the documents, then all 6 of these guys (Kurenai+ ISCR1 Squad 1) get 70-180 points.

This is unacceptable: he risks breaking his word on getting our Red Team One teammates into the finals.

or

2) The other two squads on Red Team Hyugaforce are free to imprison, and Shika gets the documents for them
This means the three extra guys DO have Round 1 Injuries (unlike the composition used to calculate the ~100 for Team Kurenai): -75 points
This means they get an extra -90 from 3 more prisoners (likewise): -90 points
Shika hauls ass to do this quickly (lolololol) : +185 points

Result: Net gain 20 points ( I was off by 5). This is inconsequential. They can't possibly move up the ladder the spaces they need with this.

Having this matter would be a massive Deus ex Machina.



Either way, its just not a good move.
 
@Lailoken, @MMKII: I think you misunderstand, so I'll elaborate. Letting team Kurenai fail is perfectly fine. Singling Hinata out by pushing Shino and Kiba into the tournament, but leaving her out, as some people proposed? That's political suicide.

Hiashi can point out that her team made the tournament and the only reason Hinata didn't (despite earning the top score in event 4) is that team Uplift placed petty dislike before the good of the village. That places her on par with the top 16 while undermining our leadership potential.

We have to treat all members of team Kurenai equally. As I said, "There's no option in between that Hiashi can't use to ruin us."
 
Yes, the Exams generally don't allow fatalities, but they do shrug at crippling somebody in the tournament. -and they mean cripple. Think about how badly you need to cripple somebody to render them useless even for interrogation in a world with mind readers.

No worries, all this would do is start the Tsunade subquest.
 
@Lailoken, @MMKII: I think you misunderstand, so I'll elaborate. Letting team Kurenai fail is perfectly fine. Singling Hinata out by pushing Shino and Kiba into the tournament, but leaving her out, as some people proposed? That's political suicide.

Hiashi can point out that her team made the tournament and the only reason Hinata didn't (despite earning the top score in event 4) is that team Uplift placed petty dislike before the good of the village. That places her on par with the top 16 while undermining our leadership potential.

We have to treat all members of team Kurenai equally. As I said, "There's no option in between that Hiashi can't use to ruin us."
Oh no, I'm not motioning we do that! That's terrible!

If we do this we make sure they all get in, so they all get supplexed through the floor! Its only fair.
 
I wonder if they (team Kurenai) are as bad they were during the spar. If their combat skills are still >30, then I don't mind them being in the tournament.
 
We pretty much know he didn't. Not only would he have needed to obtain the special paper used for the word halves, which would undoubtedly involve serious cheating on the part of a proctor, but also sift through the contents of all of Hazou's storage scrolls, in a dark tunnel, and then put everything back together in such a way that Hazou wouldn't be able to tell the difference. It's utterly implausible. Believe me, we spent a lot of time thinking about stuff like this earlier in the exam.



And yet, after over two weeks of the exam, with 300 teams participating to begin with, there are no crippling injuries as far as we know. At this point, I'm willing to trust this evidence that participants are very unwilling to break the injury rules deliberately, over unsubstantiated paranoia.

Until now there have been consequences to crippling contestants. That will no longer be nearly as much the case in the bloodsport tournament where the daimyos expect a good show to bet on, and against Goketsu in particular there will be no consequences.



@Lailoken, @MMKII: I think you misunderstand, so I'll elaborate. Letting team Kurenai fail is perfectly fine. Singling Hinata out by pushing Shino and Kiba into the tournament, but leaving her out, as some people proposed? That's political suicide.

Hiashi can point out that her team made the tournament and the only reason Hinata didn't (despite earning the top score in event 4) is that team Uplift placed petty dislike before the good of the village. That places her on par with the top 16 while undermining our leadership potential.

We have to treat all members of team Kurenai equally. As I said, "There's no option in between that Hiashi can't use to ruin us."

He could potentially argue that bumping up non-leaf contestants would be putting politics above the village, but given that there has been no general obligation for all teams to support their village-mates that isn't compelling. It's understood that there is going to be some degree of intra-village competition.

As for her "only" getting pushed out of the tournament because of our actions, the standard reply is, "ninja". It's her fault for allowing herself to be vulnerable to it. If she made herself vulnerable to being legitimately (or even illegitimately, because ninja) disqualified from the top 16, that means that she wasn't actually one of the top 16. She failed, and anything he says to argue about that is going to just sound like petty whining which only calls more attention to her failure. Petty, whining losers who beget failures do not get the big hat until after the invention of twitter.

We decided to help Shino and Kiba when we didn't decide to help Hyuuga? Observers can do the math. Helping Shino and Kiba doesn't directly contribute to our own political annihilation. Being known for not directly assisting our worst enemy in our own destruction is not such a terrible thing and the primary social consequence is going to be people thinking, "Hey, maybe I shouldn't make myself the main opponent of the Goketsu".
 
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Update

I have done an extremely pessimistic edit on the "Basically heres the bracket pool" post.

The goal: can I fudge the numbers to get Team Kurenai in the tourny, as is?

Result:

Maybe,maybe if the stars themselves align and the sage fudges the numbers and they earn every possible point, and everyone else partnered with us in Round 2 is in the bottom half of things, and no other team sans Asuma is possibly ahead of them in scoring after Event 4, and they happen to be partnered with a squad of Asuma's Round 1 teammates...

....

...

...

and they pray reallll hard...

...

...they still need 3-4 guys to drop out to make it in.


Tell Jiraiya to start popping open the champagne folks. I'm pretty sure ( if he wants us to)that we have this one in the bag.

If we're still doing that "Keep them out of the finals thing."
 
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Update

I have done an extremely pessimistic edit on the "Basically heres the bracket pool" post.

The goal: can I fudge the numbers to get Team Kurenai in the tourny, as is?

Result:

Maybe,maybe if the stars themselves align and the sage fudges the numbers and they earn every possible point, and everyone else partnered with us in Round 2 is in the bottom half of things, and no other team sans Asuma is possibly ahead of them in scoring after Event 4, and they are partnered with a squad Asuma's Round 1 teammates,

...they still need 3-4 guys to drop out to make it in.


Tell Jiraiya to start popping open the champagne folks. I'm pretty sure, if he wants us to, we have this one in the bag.

If we're still doing that "Keep them out of the finals thing."

Well, let's keep them out of the finals then.
 
Until now there have been consequences to crippling contestants. That will no longer be nearly as much the case in the bloodsport tournament where the daimyos expect a good show to bet on, and against Goketsu in particular there will be no consequences.
@eaglejarl @Velorien @OliWhail, how common is it for a tournament contestant to suffer crippling injuries in a tournament match, in general? Even if we assume that people will be more likely than baseline to try and cripple us, if that baseline is very low then we still don't have much to worry about.
 
@eaglejarl, @Velorien, @OliWhail, I posed several questions; here are the answers I'd propose for them, that I think make most sense.

@MMKII, seems right? I agree with your analysis, by the way, but I'd still prefer more concrete data. Especially since all of this is something we would plausibly know in-character.
Answers to all your questions are sitting in QM chat waiting for one of the others to sign off. I also have full proposed score workups waiting for their signoff.

Further discussion about anything related to scores should be held until after the other QMs have had a chance to weigh in on the stuff that's sitting there.
 
He could potentially argue that bumping up non-leaf contestants would be putting politics above the village, but given that there has been no general obligation for all teams to support their village-mates that isn't compelling. It's understood that there is going to be some degree of intra-village competition.

As for her "only" getting pushed out of the tournament because of our actions, the standard reply is, "ninja". It's her fault for allowing herself to be vulnerable to it. If she made herself vulnerable to being legitimately (or even illegitimately, because ninja) disqualified from the top 16, that means that she wasn't actually one of the top 16. She failed, and anything he says to argue about that is going to just sound like petty whining which only calls more attention to her failure. Petty, whining losers who beget failures do not get the big hat until after the invention of twitter.

We decided to help Shino and Kiba when we didn't decide to help Hyuuga? Observers can do the math. Helping Shino and Kiba doesn't directly contribute to our own political annihilation. Being known for not directly assisting our worst enemy in our own destruction is not such a terrible thing and the primary social consequence is going to be people thinking, "Hey, maybe I shouldn't make myself the main opponent of the Goketsu".
Regardless of whether I agree with you or not...

I would note that there is also the fact that she refused to cooperate in the fourth event and later said that it was everyone for themselves in the fifth event. She kind of dug her own grave there.

On the other hand, that makes helping her out all the more pointed a gesture to her.
 
Regardless of whether I agree with you or not...

I would note that there is also the fact that she refused to cooperate in the fourth event and later said that it was everyone for themselves in the fifth event. She kind of dug her own grave there.

On the other hand, that makes helping her out all the more pointed a gesture to her.

Except giving her WHs wouldn't do anything.
 
Team Kurenai decided against participating in our alliance, and the price was getting demolished. Had they not made that decision, I would be all for helping them into the tournament. As it stands, their abject failure is an adequately costly lesson to ensure they learn not to cross us when we extend the courtesy of an offer to cooperate to mutual benefit before treating them as obstacles.

The thing to understand is that there cannot and will not be political rivalries in the future. The problems that beset this world are too great for this level of petty shortsightedness and squabbles over local politics.

Hiashi had his play, and his farcical and selfish grab for power and status has been thoroughly rebuked by Jiraiya's demonstration -- and our own by proxy -- that he and he alone is fit to lead Leaf.

Hyuga, Aburame, and Inuzuka will fall in line behind Gōketsu, the same as every other Leaf clan, and together we will triumph. ...Or they can choose to stand in our way and be crushed underfoot.

There will be time to extend another offer to Hyuga Hinata soon enough. Now is not that time.
 
Honestly giving your political rivals wins when you don't have to is to risky for me. If Jiraiya was instated as the permanent Hokage I could see being generous. As it is we need to ensure he has the best odds possible of getting it.
 
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