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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Velorien said:
Elemental Mastery Technique details:

Effect: The user can raise or lower ambient temperature of a fixed area by 5 °C/level over a few seconds. The insides of objects and creatures are not affected directly.

Duration: Concentration (hand seals maintained) + 10 min/level. Afterwards, the temperature gradually drifts back to normal.​
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Buggy said:
That is my understanding; Elemental Mastery sets ambient air temperature to so-and-so temperature, selectable within a range determined by how much you've levelled the jutsu. There is a 'warmup' period during which the ambient temperature gradually transitions to the set temperature, but after that point it just magically locks the air temperature in it's AOE at the set point.

If it was just cooling air constantly without caring about temperature, it would either not be able to keep up with the inflow of air during the EM nuke effect or it would overshoot and start freezing air solid, inhibiting the effect. The region between those two is so small (~15 degrees) that it seems unlikely to me that it functions in this manner.
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Hmm. Follow-up question; how do we know the Superchiller rune didn't overshoot? The test results in an enclosed cavern look the same to us either way, and it's not like Hazō would know to pick the correct temperature range - he doesn't know why the EM nuke happens.
 
Kyreneryk said:
Hmm. Follow-up question; how do we know the Superchiller rune didn't overshoot? The test results in an enclosed cavern look the same to us either way, and it's not like Hazō would know to pick the correct temperature range - he doesn't know why the EM nuke happens.
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We don't know, and I am actually surprised that Hazo has not overshot by accident. That said i'm almost certain if we actually test it, we'll find it works as expected.
 
Paperclipped said:
This retcon has been processed. See changes below:


Replace the Out mention with technobabble (Hazou doesn't recognize it, as Orochimaru wasn't trained by Kagome's discipline).


Replace the Out mention with Kagome's idea that chakra is a restricted set of operations created by the Sage, which sealing (and thus runecrafting) bypasses.


Replace the Out mention with equivalent flavor-text.


Replace the "poking a hole" bit with a similar idea, though probably less bad.

Again, sorry for the confusion, this was my mistake. Let me know if I missed any spots!
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I am very happy to see this getting more attention. It had been bugging me for ages. I know it may seem like technobabble to the QMs, but I really do benefit from believing that the QMs have an actual model of how sealing works under the hood. It's only the key blackboxed research stat most of our ambitions revolve around... And it's specifically linked to things like the Toad Sage conversation and our Great Seal plans, which matter a lot to the apocalypses the story revolves around.

Thanks for clarifying all this, and thanks for specifying that some of the changes are intended as technobabble. It matters a lot to my enjoyment of the quest, and I really appreciate it.
 
Buggy said:
This is very interesting and evocative. My main thought is that oxygen enrichment of the liquid air is possible, but likely only by boiling off the nitrogen preferentially. The fluid is a homogeneous mixture under turbulent conditions so separation of the nitrogen and oxygen by density is very unlikely. I am not sure if you are saying that this is what you expect to happen or not.
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At 80 to 90 kelvin, nitrogen will be boiling off while oxygen is condensing. This is a well-known problem in commercial uses - a flask of pure liquid nitrogen left open will end up with more oxygen in it, potential fire hazard.
Core of the hellstorm will be turbulent, but if the liquid air is spreading out across a radius of dozens or hundreds of kilometers, eventually it's going to reach something closer to laminar flow, chance for the density-sort to happen.
Buggy said:
Second, the proportion of CO2 is very small, around 0.04%. Argon is a significantly larger fraction around 0.9%, larger than even water vapor usually. And it has a boiling point close to liquid oxygen, and a greater density. So I expect it'd be a mixture of liquid oxygen and liquid argon. Water ice slit would be a much greater fraction than CO2 slit. Although water ice would float on liquid oxygen/argon, whereas dry ice is similar density/denser, so maybe not much water ice floating in it.
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I'm not saying there'll be all that much CO2 in overall percentages, but it's noteworthy for remaining solid at higher temperatures than any of the other gasses involved, and having much higher density, thus potentially accumulating as sediment in and around the core of the hellstorm (while oxygen and nitrogen, as well as argon or whatever else, flow back out more quickly) and then driving convective sorts of action below the ocean surface.
Buggy said:
Liquid air isn't explosive. The oxygen content is a potent oxidizer, but the nitrogen content is not reactive. If the rune shutting down magically heats up all the ice then it is definitely a massive explosive hazard, but otherwise it will just sit there and be very cold for the next few years.
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Boiling liquid expanding vapor explosion - Wikipedia
Chemical reactions which the icecube rune suppressed (e.g. between LOX and mulched-up trees) will resume, uneven expansion (and the violent compression of how it formed) will cause internal stresses, crust of water ice could form a crude but self-sealing pressure vessel. Maybe it won't all go off at once but I wouldn't want to be standing next to it.
 
strange_person said:
Boiling liquid expanding vapor explosion - Wikipedia
Chemical reactions which the icecube rune suppressed (e.g. between LOX and mulched-up trees) will resume, uneven expansion (and the violent compression of how it formed) will cause internal stresses, crust of water ice could form a crude but self-sealing pressure vessel. Maybe it won't all go off at once but I wouldn't want to be standing next to it.
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I think all of these effects are going to be weak or not occur. Even in a pure oxygen atmosphere, common organic substances will not auto combust, and there is going to be far less combustibles than there is ice. Also, only the surface of the ice cube will tend to be oxygen enriched because of preferential nitrogen boiling/sublimation. I'm also highly doubtful that internal stresses will be sufficient to do more than crack the thing.

BLEVE requires that you strongly constrain a liquid and push it far out of equilibrium. I'm just not seeing that here. Crude pressure vessels, aren't. In the absence of magically heating the ice cube, I expect that at most any such energetic events are going to non-explosively shatter the ice. You're more at danger from a chunk falling on your head or getting buried in the collapsing debris.
 
strange_person said:
It might turn out to be a huge Prince Rupert's drop - Wikipedia with residual stresses sufficient to scatter the whole thing into fragments, drastically increasing surface area across which it's exchanging heat.
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That won't scale, i think. Rupert's drops are small and carefully formed. This is a big, rough, debris-strewn piece of ice. The outer surface would need to be able to withstand significant tensile stresses to store meaningful energy in those stresses, and I don't think it'll suffice. The main strength of it as a barrier is it's self-regenerating capability and the inhospitable nature of the interior, not the actual resilience of the air ice.

Edit: Also, massive shattering and contact with the surroundings still wouldn't cause a BLEVE or similar. Dry ice does not explode if you drop it onto the warm ground.
 
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Sir Stompy said:
I can't recall if Akane did an air burst in her initial test, but if she did then doing this on the ground would likely cut the lethal radius in half, since we'd go from a spherical effect to a hemisphere.
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She cast it at ground level.

Buggy said:
So, this puts a bound on the size of the liquid air flood. The average energy from sunlight is sufficient to cancel out the cooling effects of the EM AoE and boil all the liquid air across a circle with a diameter of 400 kilometers, and before that point the flooding will be slowed by the fact it is forced to extract heat from the soil it passes over. Heat transfer from the surrounding air contributes AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA, and wind effects are neglected.
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Kyreneryk said:
You got this from the latent heat of vaporization of liquid nitrogen, I assume (which seems to be something on the order of 200 kJ/kg -
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God, I so love this thread.

Buggy said:
That is my understanding; Elemental Mastery sets ambient air temperature to so-and-so temperature, selectable within a range determined by how much you've levelled the jutsu. There is a 'warmup' period during which the ambient temperature gradually transitions to the set temperature, but after that point it just magically locks the air temperature in it's AOE at the set point.

If it was just cooling air constantly without caring about temperature, it would either not be able to keep up with the inflow of air during the EM nuke effect or it would overshoot and start freezing air solid, inhibiting the effect. The region between those two is so small (~15 degrees) that it seems unlikely to me that it functions in this manner.
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ponwog, but this matches my understanding.
 
kagome returns to find hazou, who is totally not secretly oro, proposing the Moon plan.
in hindsight if hazou had blew up at noburi. that coulda been interpreted as oro arrogance/anger, even if noburi believes a real hazou would be justified in doing so. especially if that's out of character for spineless hazou
 
Left-Hand Mutant said:
so, quick recap:

Nagato tried to enforce world peace via weird Ninshu ritual. No one involved will explain the details to us, leaving us skeptical that it would outperform Uplift as a long-term strategy, or even be a good idea.

Nagato did, however, go to great lengths to minimize direct harm. He could have guaranteed the EN would stay off his back by and ~guaranteed his success by triggering a world war or unsealing horrors. He chooses not to.

Nagato also called the Akatsuki, a group including Hidan, "his friends". We have no fucking idea why Hidan was part of this project, or what he contributes, but we do know he has cheerfully massacred at least thousands of helpless people. Nagato calling him a friend is taken as evidence that Nagato is morally bankrupt, and isn't trustworthy to entrust world peace to.

Hazou, who has a cleaner moral record, thinks it would be better if he took over and sheaparded in world peace instead of Nagato. He and his family prepare to fight the Akatsuki over which prophet of peace will claim power.

Hazou teams up with his uncle Orochimaru, Hidan's main compitition for "greatest monster in the setting". Given the massive power imbalance, this means sceding an unknown ammount of control over the furture to Orochimaru. Attitudes of "even if Oro seizes power, it's better than Pain" circulate the hivemind.

Hazou suggests kidnapping Moon's ninja to increase his odds of victory, and exterminateing tens of thousands of civilians cover their tracks. Orochimaru redily agrees.




.......that unknown ritual is scary, and I'd much rather try Uplift's strategy, but I'm not sure why the playerbase seems so sure whe have the moral high ground over Nagato. Or that Nagato is so monsterous and unreasonable that any sacrifice is justified if it's in the name of thwarting him.
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I don't think Hazō has the moral high ground, but I also don't see a reason to convince other players of that. The playerbase is already voting in plans that I like as it is. (I want more Hazōflake though.)

strange_person said:
while near the core of the hellstorm rivulets of liquid oxygen laden with CO2 "silt" sink through cracks until they're encapsulated by just enough water ice to be well insulated and neutrally buoyant, creating a sort of "underwater hailstones" which potentially clot into frozen columns all the way down to the ocean floor. When the LOX and dry ice boil off, those columns might pop back up as mile-high icebergs shot through with weird caves where the ballast used to be.
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This sounds like an awesome fantasy landscape setting. The sort of thing you'd see on an MTG land card art.

strange_person said:
Have you met him in person, though? Ino's got a whole other dataset to cross-reference.
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Now I'm imagining the Chosen for the Grave QMs meeting Beta timeline Hazō and family.
 
eaglejarl said:
God, I so love this thread.
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The current ruleset largely forbids the kind of "do some physics calcs to turn a basic seal into a nuke" bullshit that Radvic was up to eight years ago. The closest we've come to it recently was the Gamma Ray stuff, but the guesses about how this could translate to game rules weren't promising so we went for RER 2.0 instead.

But every so often something does allow for physics to apply without the shield of opposed rolls and "why isn't this already everywhere", and the thread gets going again like a desert blooming after the return of the rain.
I think it's beautiful.
 
T_of_A said:
The current ruleset largely forbids the kind of "do some physics calcs to turn a basic seal into a nuke" bullshit that Radvic was up to eight years ago. The closest we've come to it recently was the Gamma Ray stuff, but the guesses about how this could translate to game rules weren't promising so we went for RER 2.0 instead.
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I thought we went for RERs mostly because Remote Explosive turned out to be Easy and our beam-collimation ideas turned out to be harder than that?
 
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