Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

[Inferno Vulpix]

Even having read what Hazou said, I still don't see why he can't just talk to Kei about it and say that, hey, I know I said I wasn't gonna do this, but I'm increasingly concerned that doing this is the only way for us to win, and go from there.

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It's true, and that's better than nothing, but Kei is still going to feel very strongly about EM and very much want to convince us to stop researching it. We saw in this update how Kei almost hit the limits of her composure in trying to stay objective. If we bring it to her again, after having not just promised to try to avoid it but to abandon the idea altogether, I still see her feeling very upset about the situation. But maybe it's navigable.

Except, what do we do if Kei still says no there? Like, I've made my position clear that if we turn out to actually need EM to win then I'm willing to disregard Kei's wishes if it comes to that. If we reach that point and go to Kei again, are we really asking for her consultation, or more just informing her that conditions have changed and her input is no longer being taken into consideration? It's hard to feel like the conversation would go all that well with undertones like that in it.

And, emotionally, modeling Kei at the start of this conversation, I know exactly the kind of feeling that starts with feeling safe and relieved, only to realize with gnawing dread that the safety was an illusion and you suddenly have to fight the same fight all over again. It's a pretty sucky emotion, and it's exactly what Kei will be feeling in that conversation (come to think of it, it's probably what she was feeling here too). Overall, I have a hard time seeing this as an easy rational conversation where Kei weights the factors and tries to judge what the optimal path is. Consider that even in this update, Kei spent the entire time focused on the possible negative effects of EM with little thought spared to its role in our current mission. Kei's thoughts are primarily anti-EM first and foremost and I think she'd have to fight to bring herself to think of them from other angles.

That is all to say, I think there's a worrying possibility we come to this later conversation with Kei and she's stressed and panicked and monofocused on making EM seem as bad as possible because her primary focus is on convincing us that it's a bad idea, reaching the limits of her composure while also feeling betrayed because she felt safe about this, she thought this had been put to rest, and now by the context of the meeting she feels like she's just getting sidelined by Hazou's determination now that he disagrees with her. And, I dunno, maybe that's still navigable, but it's quite a bit worse than if we simply let Kei know that we'd do our best to avoid letting it come to that.

 

[RandomOTP]

• Kei, in private, prior to beginning Superchillers
  • We think we're able to replicate the EM Nuke effect with a rune, we're able to research it now.
  • We're hesitant to bring this back into existence, yet ways to destroy a city with runes are not uncommon, and unlike EM, this couldn't be learned by anyone with Fire Element.
  • This likely would kill the non-Summoner members of Akatsuki (with the exception of Konan).
  • We brought you along as our sanity checker, so are we crazy to consider this?
  • If she's adamantly against it, don't proceed.
  • Should we tell Kagome that it's inspired by the reports of Isan's destruction?

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Looking at the plan, we make no precommitments or promises not to research Runic EM-Class Nukes. The action plan simply says "don't proceed" as in "do not [currently] proceed [with the project]." I suppose the broader context could also imply "do not [ever] proceed [with this project]," given that we're meeting with Kei in her role as our sanity checker.

I suppose this is the result of the action plan being too vague, and our desire to maximize Word Count XP at the apparent cost of clarity.

Perhaps we can spend a FP to Declare that Hazou merely said that he would not presently proceed with this line of inquiry, but that he may be forced to return to it if our other ideas do not bear fruit?

We may, retroactively, lose a Kei Hug out of it, but in this case, the price may be worth it.

 

[DanZapman]

Perhaps we can spend a FP to Declare that Hazou merely said that he would not presently proceed with this line of inquiry, but that he may be forced to return to it if our other ideas do not bare fruit?

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We can just talk to Kei

which is the main thing EM bypassed, moreso than anything else

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EM is like that because it got overlooked when the quest changed the system it used and got grandfathered in, as far as I know it's purely an OOC thing

EDIT: Also, a suggestion from Bomb on Discord:

Reality Yeeters
Remember that sealing failure that made self-replicating orbs of annihilation? Well, we have record of another sealmaster using spatial techniques to make a seal yeet matter into another dimension (Kōgami's Spatial Distortion Seal). Let's make a seal that just fucking hurls matter in a radius around it into another dimension. If it counts as storage, we get veterancy, too!

Self Cloning Aggregation of Reality Yeeters
Aka the SCARY seal. Like Reality Yeeters, but for a brief duration the orbs of removed matter recur if physical matter touches them, centered on the touch.

 

[RandomOTP]

We can just talk to Kei

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Eh, my concerns regarding that sort of "I know we promised, but..." conversation largely mirror @Inferno Vulpix 's. Giving Kei that safety blanket, and then ripping it from her later on is cruel. I'd much rather avoid it if at all possible --especially given Kei's tenuous emotional/mental health right now. It'd be the sort of blow that she might normally shrug off, but could do some major damage right now.

I'd much rather spend a FP on a Declaration to fix what was, ultimately, a wording error with an action plan (see Stompy, IV, and myself all confused about why the chapter didn't follow what we thought the action plan to be).

Hopefully the QMs are generous enough to allow it, with a gentle reminder that such allowances are the exception, rather than the rule.

 

[_The_Bomb]

I'd much rather spend a FP on a Declaration to fix what was, ultimately, a wording error with an action plan (see Stompy, IV, and myself all confused about why the chapter didn't follow what we thought the action plan to be).

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Also, I.

 

[Veedrac]

EM is like that because it got overlooked when the quest changed the system it used and got grandfathered in, as far as I know it's purely an OOC thing

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EM got mega-nerfed by the system change (particularly AoE), it just didn't matter because the physics was so broken that it could take it. Some details got grandfathered in but it was always an OOD physics exploit against the autobalancer and remains that way today.

If anything's really changed here it's mostly the degree of caution applied before we get stuff.

 

[Cariyaga]

I'd much rather not fix that with an FP because it is in line with past characterization (even very recently!) and I have no interest in going back on it.

 

[DanZapman]

EM got mega-nerfed by the system change (particularly AoE), it just didn't matter because the physics was so broken that it could take it. Some details got grandfathered in but it was always an OOD physics exploit against the autobalancer and remains that way today.

If anything's really changed here it's mostly the degree of caution applied before we get stuff.

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Fair enough, but either way I doubt OOC factors will allow us to get anything like that as easily again.

 

[Sir Stompy]

Personally, I'm fine with how the chapter turned out, no I didn't intend to have Hazou swear off Superchillers for perpetuity, but I did intend for him not to research them now if Kei said no. Well, she said no.

If we need to revisit this because we're convinced that they're necessary, that's fine too. Sorry Kei.

 

[Inferno Vulpix]

EM got mega-nerfed by the system change (particularly AoE), it just didn't matter because the physics was so broken that it could take it. Some details got grandfathered in but it was always an OOD physics exploit against the autobalancer and remains that way today.

If anything's really changed here it's mostly the degree of caution applied before we get stuff.

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The shift to FtD substantially changed how it works, but the system change that Zapman is talking about is The Great Rebalancing, where we went from 20=Jounin to 60=Jounin. EM was introduced in the earlier level scaling and did not change how it scaled when the system got rebalanced. This brought the nuke threshold from 40 (astronomically high, beyond Essie) to 40 (chuunin).

Now, it's not that the jutsu got overlooked, the QMs did see it and consciously decide to leave it unchanged, but that's the system rebalance that made it OP.

 

[RandomOTP]

I'll admit that I'd rather not use an entire action plan (or even any screen time) to revisit it. Maybe a line or two, spending a FP, to retroactively fix it offscreen, but nothing more.

I don't really care to spend our current time micro-managing the emotional states of our team. They're all grown adults (or near enough), with close familial bonds, and the tools to help them communicate amongst each other (CCnJ, for example). They have agency and can poke us if something's bothering them. Otherwise, it's time to churn out WMDs.

We can keep an eye on Runic EM-Class Nukes, and if nothing else works, revisit it.

 

[acidshill]

Eh, my concerns regarding that sort of "I know we promised, but..." conversation largely mirror @Inferno Vulpix 's. Giving Kei that safety blanket, and then ripping it from her later on is cruel. I'd much rather avoid it if at all possible --especially given Kei's tenuous emotional/mental health right now. It'd be the sort of blow that she might normally shrug off, but could do some major damage right now.

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Third-ing this. I cannot in good conscience vote for any plan that will make Kei sad.

 

[Iris-Iven-Ibis]

Chapter 661, Part 1: Hazō in Murderland​

They were almost as bad as gazebos, and Hazō had been horrified to learn that those actually existed on the mainland, as opposed to being a metaphor for landlubbers getting killed by their own laziness.

Come to think of it, Kei, with her alphabetical knowledge of means of suicide, probably knew exactly how to identify a suitable grassy knoll, in which case it made more sense for her to be at ease on an obviously safe one.

"Here, it is safe to imagine," she said softly. "Just think of it, Hazō. A few minutes of indolent peace, then your eyes close slowly, and there is no more pressure. No more obligations. No more risk of suffering or even death for those around you should you once misstep."

Even without seeing his face, she must have somehow sensed Hazō's horrified stare.

"No need for that, Hazō," she said testily. "Suicidal ideation is harmless without intent, and I would hardly murder Snowflake for the sake of my own selfishness."

"And also you value your life too much," Hazō prompted.

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I cant,, gazebos! gazebos!!!

Y does Kei have a alphabetical knowledge on ways of suicide I'm always worried for her but now I'm 50% more worried for her someone give her a hug (not literally as I would lead to you becoming a human pincushion)

 

[faflec]

Y does Kei have a alphabetical knowledge on ways of suicide I'm always worried for her but now I'm 50% more worried for her someone give her a hug (not literally as I would lead to you becoming a human pincushion)

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"The day I was assigned to this mission, my grandfather came to see me," Mori cut in, in a slightly distant, flat voice that sounded like she was reading from a book. "He was ex-ANBU, and after he congratulated me, he offered me some advice that he said every genin heading into hostile territory ought to know."

The two boys were all ears.

"The most effective means is an exploding tag placed here," she indicated a spot near her solar plexus. "There is little time for pain, and the damage prevents the enemy from dissecting your remains for village secrets. But exploding tags have a time delay, and require activation, so the enemy can stop you. Therefore the most reliable means is to sever the carotid artery with a kunai. If you make a movement like this, you will bypass the thick neck muscles and inflict a deep, broad cut. In the final moments, try to fall so that your body cannot be retrieved before you bleed out.

"If you are captured, do not bother attempting to bite out your tongue. Even if you hit the lingual artery, it heals before you can lose enough blood. The exception is if the torturers have destroyed your ability to write. A genin who cannot speak or write is usually too much trouble to keep interrogating, and they will promptly execute you. If your hands have been kept intact, you should instead—"

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[RandomOTP]

I cant,, gazebos! gazebos!!!

Y does Kei have a alphabetical knowledge on ways of suicide I'm always worried for her but now I'm 50% more worried for her someone give her a hug (not literally as I would lead to you becoming a human pincushion)

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In addition to Faflec's link, Kei was suicidal for a long time, and although she's mostly(?) over it, still relapses into ideation about it (progress is not linear).

Most notably, in the aftermath of Isan's destruction, Kei was unresponsive for several days, and likely would've killed herself if not for Snowflake's existence being tied to her own.

 

[Suleverf]

This isn't true. Most of the destructive power of EM Nukes comes from physics, not the rune itself, the rune only cools some air. All of the rest of the destructive power of the nuke effect comes from physics. This is completely unlike other runic weapon suggestions like grasers, which would be powered by the rune itself.

EM Nukes are likely the easiest way of creating a destructive effect that will take out Akatsuki.

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Apologies, I used a phrasing that didn't exactly match my intent. I didn't mean that the rune's power could be directly allocated from effect size to some other attribute. I meant that our weapon design choices overall should cut down excessive effect size and focus on other useful attributes. This doesn't even necessarily mean abandoning the EM space, others have put forward suggestions for confining the effect.

It's certainly easy to make a vanilla EM nuke, and one may even argue that the full 10 mile effect makes it easier to kill Akatsuki. But personally I think it's unlikely to be the only feasible way to kill Akatsuki within our research timeframes, and the ease comes at the cost of long-term Uplift goals.

If, EM aside, gamma rays are our best frontrunner option, then I can see a plausible future where EM really is the only viable payload we can deliver there, and what then? This is not the stage of research where we can afford to foreclose options, not if we actually care about winning.

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If the situation truly gets as dire as "use EM or all is lost" then a voided promise with Kei is probably the least of our problems. It helps that EM nuke isn't like a Manhattan Project in terms of research effort. I also don't think telling her we would try our best (but not make any binding promise) would've reassured her, given what happened with Isan and this exact same nuke.

 

[Black King]

In fairness there are potential methods to do so. We could prepare some strong weapons or buffs and hand them to the two remaining sannin, enabling them to fight some proportion of Akatsuki and win where they would normally lose.

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Eh, it's iffy. Paper sealing has a long, storied history. Anything we do is immediately contrasted with history, meaning if we can give buffs to our essies, they can likely do the same and we're back at square one.

Runes/3D Sealing on the other hand is completely new and we can essentially make stuff up. But we also can't exactly hand a rune to someone so...

 

[Veedrac]

The shift to FtD substantially changed how it works, but the system change that Zapman is talking about is The Great Rebalancing, where we went from 20=Jounin to 60=Jounin. EM was introduced in the earlier level scaling and did not change how it scaled when the system got rebalanced. This brought the nuke threshold from 40 (astronomically high, beyond Essie) to 40 (chuunin).

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Fair, I missed that.

 

[Veedrac]

Giving Kei that safety blanket, and then ripping it from her later on is cruel.

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Talk to her now. Set expectations. Normal healthy relationship stuff.

 

[RandomOTP]

I wonder if we can make a rune that "holds" the SC jutsu while we're asleep, thus allowing Snowflake to persist through more than one day?

Oh, also our Shadow Clones. For sealing research. Of course. Totally motivated by practical reasons. Ahem.

 

[Buggy]

Eh, it's iffy. Paper sealing has a long, storied history. Anything we do is immediately contrasted with history, meaning if we can give buffs to our essies, they can likely do the same and we're back at square one.

Runes/3D Sealing on the other hand is completely new and we can essentially make stuff up. But we also can't exactly hand a rune to someone so...

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This is what Hot Pocket runes, as well as other concepts that tie runic effect to seals, are intended to solve. Rune portability is quite possibly the biggest design issue we are facing IMO.

 

[CaramilkThief]

Before you guys invent EM nuke runes, please consider a few things

• The EM jutsu had a radius of what, one zone at most? It still destroyed about 12 square miles of ground
• The smallest radius time rune Hazo could invent has a radius of 2 or so zones, and it lasts 1 month.
• The QMs have said shortening the duration or AoE of a rune might make it harder, and so it's possible that the easiest EM nuke rune Hazo researches has the same radius as the time rune and also lasts 1 month.

Such a rune would not be a city killer, it would be a country killer.

If the EM nuke rune has a radius 4 times larger than the jutsu, then it will be chilling 64 times the volume of air every instant. Not to mention the amount of time it stays active. I don't think it is in our best interest to invent the EM nuke rune before making absolutely sure that the effect of the rune won't mean ending a country, and possibly permanently changing the weather of the Elemental Nations as a whole.

 

[Veedrac]

If the EM nuke rune has a radius 4 times larger than the jutsu, then it will be chilling 64 times the volume of air every instant.

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It's limited by surface area, not volume, so 'only' 16x.
At some point I think it also hits soft rate limits, but I'd need to do math to say when.

 

[Buggy]

If the EM nuke rune has a radius 4 times larger than the jutsu, then it will be chilling 64 times the volume of air every instant. Not to mention the amount of time it stays active. I don't think it is in our best interest to invent the EM nuke rune before making absolutely sure that the effect of the rune won't mean ending a country, and possibly permanently changing the weather of the Elemental Nations as a whole.

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Odd knock-on effects are possible and weather is complicated, but on a pure thermodynamic standpoint a EM rune could not plausibly cause a nation-wide cooling effect. Even a large EM effect is something like 5 OOM less energy loss than a 100km x 100km area receives from sunlight.

Now, would it do anything indirectly? Kick up dust, cause storms that reflect sunlight, etc? No idea, weather is complicated.

 

[strange_person]

destroyed about 12 square miles of ground

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Twelve mile kill radius is closer to 450 square miles. The 0.75 mile crater radius is less than two square miles, and 1.5 mile "all aboveground structures destroyed" radius is roughly 7 square miles.

I'm perfectly comfortable not ever committing atrocities since I have faith that the QMs aren't going to write the quest into a situation where we have to commit atrocities or otherwise do things that violate human decency or SV rules.

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I trust them not to do so deliberately, but simulationism means we could still conceivably end up painted into a corner by accident.

Yeah, how else does she expect us to kill a group of essies without killing the city they're in? Anything else requires us to be there in person and that's sacrificial at best, possibly suicidal.

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Runic auto-turret that targets strong chakra signatures, or cloth with pictures of red clouds on a black background, or other objectively definable akatsuki-specific features. Some of them have methods for hiding from chakra sensing, but they probably can't do that and fight all-out at the same time.

A storage seal is placed on top of it, and the rune is activated. While active, it seals all light that enters the rune's radius into the storage seal.

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Standard storage seal fully loaded with 100kg of photons, regardless of wavelength, would be about 9x10^18 joules. That's not a flashbang, it's a two-megaton nuke. It would also appear as a sphere of utter darkness, bitter cold (unpleasantly reminiscent of EM nuke prodrome effects), and possibly odd electromagnetic effects (from asymmetries on the radio end of the spectrum) while charging up, which could easily be mistaken for a sealing failure.