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Dragon Ball: After the End

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Jirachi47 said:
Concussion and distraction will happen no matter what.
Mitsuba describes being blinded as a inconvience, not a problem...
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Point of order.

Mitsuba spars with people in the top percentile or two of Exile combat ability several times a week when in active training, if not more. And she's in her mid-thirties, with a kid almost Kakara's age. She didn't start intense training as young as Kakara, but it's been 20-25 years for her. She's been hit by a lot of things, a lot of times.

So one might say she's kind of blase about these things.

For instance, Mitsuba's been Kamehameha'd by the experts of five Exile combat styles so many times that nowadays when she gets hit with one, in between OWs she's thinking "OW OW OW hm, crisp, with OW OW OW a slight citrusy aftersmell OW OW OW."

Now, she's probably been Kamehameha'd more times than she's been Solar Flare'd, but it's going to be something of the same general order of magnitude, which is to say, at least a thousand times, though probably less than ten thousand. I think.

...

Further note:

Simon_Jester said:
Your smoldering robes are snuffed out by the sudden wind of your flight as you flash into range and launch a barrage of punches and kicks at the Balor fighter. Several land, Cynthia recoiling from the impacts as you settle into a rhythm, beginning to regain the initiative. She skips back, aided by the momentum of your next punch, and vip!

She'll be too smart to try exactly the same move, so you whirl and dodge, expecting a punch or kick in the chest, and your head whips round as you-

"Taiyoken!"

-Go blind and then get kicked in the chest.
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She was expecting that attack and it still worked because despite looong exposure, the Solar Flare still left her defenseless for long enough to get a good shot in. If Cynthia'd pressed the attack at that point it's entirely possible she could have ended the fight right there, but she backed off to use a Kamehameha as a finishing attack, which gave Mitsuba at least long enough to recover enough of her senses to rapidly blind-fire a Makankosappo (one of her specialty tactics) in the general direction of the very large and rapidly brightening blob of Cynthia's ki, while frantically sidestepping in midair.

And let me tell you, Mitsuba was very, very happy to have an operational pause for her head to stop spinning after that exchange of ki blasts. That was when they had their mid-battle conversation, remember?

Simon_Jester said:
Spots and whorls and stranger things strobe across your vision, and while you can fight blind on ki sense alone, it's never easy.

Cynthia, on the other hand, just narrowly avoided getting speared by a Special- and though you didn't put enough into it to be confident it'd punch right through her and go out the other side like the legendary Mister Piccolo's, you're pretty sure she could stand to catch her breath herself.

Fren is saying something to the crowd, but you have ears only for your opponent, not least because you're trying to use them to compensate for not being able to see a damn thing.

Shaping ki to pitch directional sound is a weird little trick, but not a hard one to learn if you care to. You use it...
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Mitsuba was rather more than 'inconvenienced,' right then. She was marginally capable of fighting and if Cynthia had pushed she might have been able to defend herself, but she very definitely had a problem, not an inconvenience. Granted she wasn't scared, but that was more a function of experience in the ring than of anything else.

and the dragon likely has psychic senses and an adequate ki sense. It seems unlikely that blinding will be anything more than a phasing attack. Maybe use it once to prevent a quick response to a real threat?
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Honestly I don't actually disagree with your conclusion, I just don't want to underrate the effectiveness of Solar Flare in those initial moments. It's a one-off, not a fight-winner.
 
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Compliant Omake: The Rules of Fighting Psychics
  • Apocrypha
    • The Rules of Fighting Psychics
    ​
    To: Lieutenant-Commander Vorhim, Cold Empire Seventeenth Legion
    From: Lord Pola, Internal Affairs
    Re: Jotun Five

    Dear Lieutenant-Commander Vorhim,
    ​
    Due to your honestly abysmal performance on Jotun Five, you and your much reduced forces will be cycled back to Hearth for remedial training. While encountering a defense force that is comprised entirely of psychics is a rare occurrence, you should have remembered the training you went through to earn your laurels and not blindly sacrificed over half your fighting force in a quite pointless aerial maneuver. On the trip back, I would suggest meditating upon the following points:

    Firstly, Never take your attention off of a psychic. Ignoring any hostile psychics is, by far, the worst option anyone can take, as most of their tricks cannot be contested unless you are aware of them. Neglect paying attention to one for just a second, and you may find your heart being stopped, your lungs being crushed, or various nasty tricks being deployed upon your head.

    Secondly, Never engage in direct mind-to-mind confrontations. No matter their abilities, all psychics share a huge number of telepathy variants, and thus have the will to back them up. Touching a hostile psychic's mind, unless you are psychic yourself, is tantamount to suicide, as they would proceed to enter your mind with little resistance and tear it apart from the inside - like what your second experienced. Even ki-based mental defenses have... limited effectiveness against psychics, usually failing quickly against a focused assault.

    Thirdly, Never Assume you Know Everything A Psychic Can Do. Due to the nature of how PSI works, no two psychics share the same abilities - some have more mental focuses, some have more self-focus, some have more physical focuses... point is, the number and amount of abilities they can have is nigh-infinite. Attacking a psychic without knowing their abilities may cause you to end up murdered in frozen time, which I hear is not a good way to go.

    Fourthly, Don't assume their weakness is a weakness. Many psychics are known to neglect their Ki, that is true. That does not mean their low power is a weakness, as PSI is quite good at filling the gap. Even at relatively low strengths of under a hundred thousand, one can have PSI strength over five to ten times that - and that is discounting what happens when multiple psychics pool their wills together. Attempting to directly contest that with Ki will certainly fail - especially as PSI is incredibly effective against Ki-based abilities overall.

    Hopefully, considering these four points will prepare you for the next time you end up in an embarrassing situation, like Jotun Five.

    Yours Truly,
    Lord Pola
    Internal Affairs
    Cold Empire
     
  • Apocrypha
    • The Fourth Monado said:
    The Rules of Fighting Psychics
    ​
    To: Lieutenant-Commander Vorhim, Cold Empire Seventeenth Legion
    From: Lord Pola, Internal Affairs
    Re: Jotun Five

    Dear Lieutenant-Commander Vorhim,
    ​
    Due to your honestly abysmal performance on Jotun Five, you and your much reduced forces will be cycled back to Hearth for remedial training. While encountering a defense force that is comprised entirely of psychics is a rare occurrence, you should have remembered the training you went through to earn your laurels and not blindly sacrificed over half your fighting force in a quite pointless aerial maneuver. On the trip back, I would suggest meditating upon the following points:

    Firstly, Never take your attention off of a psychic. Ignoring any hostile psychics is, by far, the worst option anyone can take, as most of their tricks cannot be contested unless you are aware of them. Neglect paying attention to one for just a second, and you may find your heart being stopped, your lungs being crushed, or various nasty tricks being deployed upon your head.

    Secondly, Never engage in direct mind-to-mind confrontations. No matter their abilities, all psychics share a huge number of telepathy variants, and thus have the will to back them up. Touching a hostile psychic's mind, unless you are psychic yourself, is tantamount to suicide, as they would proceed to enter your mind with little resistance and tear it apart from the inside - like what your second experienced. Even ki-based mental defenses have... limited effectiveness against psychics, usually failing quickly against a focused assault.

    Thirdly, Never Assume you Know Everything A Psychic Can Do. Due to the nature of how PSI works, no two psychics share the same abilities - some have more mental focuses, some have more self-focus, some have more physical focuses... point is, the number and amount of abilities they can have is nigh-infinite. Attacking a psychic without knowing their abilities may cause you to end up murdered in frozen time, which I hear is not a good way to go.

    Fourthly, Don't assume their weakness is a weakness. Many psychics are known to neglect their Ki, that is true. That does not mean their low power is a weakness, as PSI is quite good at filling the gap. Even at relatively low strengths of under a hundred thousand, one can have PSI strength over five to ten times that - and that is discounting what happens when multiple psychics pool their wills together. Attempting to directly contest that with Ki will certainly fail - especially as PSI is incredibly effective against Ki-based abilities overall.

    Hopefully, considering these four points will prepare you for the next time you end up in an embarrassing situation, like Jotun Five.

    Yours Truly,
    Lord Pola
    Internal Affairs
    Cold Empire
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    For what I hold to be obvious reasons, I shall refrain from ruling on the canonicity of this until after the year is done. :lol
     
    Another way to disorient him would be rapidly teleporting him around the world.

    Get the other Exiles in on it so they keep hitting him before he has time to adjust.
     
    The only people who can help do this are royals who know Instant Transmission. That's Berra; I don't know if it includes Apra and Yammar. Plus, it would pull the dragon away from any royals who don't know Instant Transmission, thus reducing the 'heat' on the dragon and dividing our forces in the face of the enemy.
     
    Ridiculously Average Guy said:
    Then just teleport it rapidly around this area. Or have us take one royal each with us.
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    To paraphrase a quote from a Roger Zelazny novel:

    "It means nothing to be able to transport yourself anywhere, if you are vulnerable in all places."

    I really, REALLY doubt that we can disorient the dragon more through teleportations that force us to literally grapple with it, than it will benefit from the distraction imposed on us by having to manage repeated teleportations while grappling with a dragon.

    Can we please try to come up with some tactics that don't have a high risk of backfiring horribly (say, getting us bitten in half) in exchange for a fleeting tactical advantage that may or may not materialize? I liked Solar Flare as a choice for that exact reason.
     
    [X][COUNTER] Fire with fire. You have the largest gathering of magical might in generations right at hand. You can't stand Dandeer, but you can work with her if it means cursing this filthy lizard.
    [X][KAIJU] No. The means by which Dazarel is dominating you isn't raw power; more blastiness is not what you need. Speed will serve you better, in exploiting whatever openings he leaves you.

    And because I'm not sure how well a brute-force defense is going to work against an experienced telepath: this is the song that never ends it just goes on and on my friends some people started singing it not knowing what it was and now they're stuck singing it forever just because this is the song that never ends it just goes on and on my friends some people started singing it not knowing what it was and now they're stuck singing it forever just because this is the song that never ends it just goes on and on my friends some people started singing it not knowing what it was and now they're stuck singing it forever just because this is the song that never ends it just goes on and on my friends some people started singing it not knowing what it was and now they're stuck singing it forever just because this is the song that never ends it just goes on and on my friends some people started singing it not knowing what it was and now they're stuck singing it forever just because this is the song that never ends it just goes on and on my friends some people started singing it not knowing what it was and now they're stuck singing it forever just because this is the song that never ends it just goes on and on my friends some people started singing it not knowing what it was and now they're stuck singing it forever just because
     
    Simon_Jester said:
    Point of order.

    Mitsuba spars with people in the top percentile or two of Exile combat ability several times a week when in active training, if not more. And she's in her mid-thirties, with a kid almost Kakara's age. She didn't start intense training as young as Kakara, but it's been 20-25 years for her. She's been hit by a lot of things, a lot of times.

    So one might say she's kind of blase about these things.

    For instance, Mitsuba's been Kamehameha'd by the experts of five Exile combat styles so many times that nowadays when she gets hit with one, in between OWs she's thinking "OW OW OW hm, crisp, with OW OW OW a slight citrusy aftersmell OW OW OW."

    Now, she's probably been Kamehameha'd more times than she's been Solar Flare'd, but it's going to be something of the same general order of magnitude, which is to say, at least a thousand times, though probably less than ten thousand. I think.

    ...

    Further note:

    She was expecting that attack and it still worked because despite looong exposure, the Solar Flare still left her defenseless for long enough to get a good shot in. If Cynthia'd pressed the attack at that point it's entirely possible she could have ended the fight right there, but she backed off to use a Kamehameha as a finishing attack, which gave Mitsuba at least long enough to recover enough of her senses to rapidly blind-fire a Makankosappo (one of her specialty tactics) in the general direction of the very large and rapidly brightening blob of Cynthia's ki, while frantically sidestepping in midair.

    And let me tell you, Mitsuba was very, very happy to have an operational pause for her head to stop spinning after that exchange of ki blasts. That was when they had their mid-battle conversation, remember?

    Mitsuba was rather more than 'inconvenienced,' right then. She was marginally capable of fighting and if Cynthia had pushed she might have been able to defend herself, but she very definitely had a problem, not an inconvenience. Granted she wasn't scared, but that was more a function of experience in the ring than of anything else.

    Honestly I don't actually disagree with your conclusion, I just don't want to underrate the effectiveness of Solar Flare in those initial moments. It's a one-off, not a fight-winner.
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    *Shrug*. Your right, I thought Mitsuba was somewhat less impaired than that. We should expect that an uncounter solar Flare should be a problem for the dragon, likely preventing a response, which can allow for the usage of massed kienzans etc.
    [X] [COUNTER] Whenever you really need for the dragon to be unable to counter an attack, arrange for a Solar Flare.
    This should be a subvote, right?
    If we started teleporting, I would be suprised if the dragon didn't just start ignoring us, making the point moot.
    Also, if we are willing to sacrifice other people, would random exile warrior #62 be able to IT the Dragon into the sun or something?
     
    I strongly suspect that given the size and mass and power mismatch between Random Saiyan Warrior #62 (working name: Toma Puddin) and the dragon, it would be impossible to do an Instant Transmission faster than the dragon could kill the annoying hanger-on with an Explosive Wave or other such technique.

    Especially since, and this is admittedly one of the flaws in the 'summon an army' technique... the dragon will be able to read the minds of any single one of those individual fighters, except for a handful who are experts in Mind Delve.
     
    Simon_Jester said:
    I strongly suspect that given the size and mass and power mismatch between Random Saiyan Warrior #62 (working name: Toma Puddin) and the dragon, it would be impossible to do an Instant Transmission faster than the dragon could kill the annoying hanger-on with an Explosive Wave or other such technique.

    Especially since, and this is admittedly one of the flaws in the 'summon an army' technique... the dragon will be able to read the minds of any single one of those individual fighters, except for a handful who are experts in Mind Delve.
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    Unless we have the army a significant distance away, have a mass IT bring them in right when they release their combined super attack. He might not be reading everyone's mind, although he's probably reading a lot of them.
     
    How do we teleport in a big army all at once while they're charging a massed barrage of Kamehamehas or whatever? The technique requires physical contact. And is there even any evidence of a much smaller being having the ability to use Instant Transmission to teleport a much larger one, or a large group of equal-sized beings?
     
    [X][COUNTER] Phone a friend. Grandpa Gohan, I need some help here! What do I do?! Get some advice. Get a last-minute divine power-up. Get a technique. Get something! He's a god, he'll have SOMETHING!

    [X][KAIJU] No. The means by which Dazarel is dominating you isn't raw power; more blastiness is not what you need. Speed will serve you better, in exploiting whatever openings he leaves you.
     
    What we really need is for the Sorcerors to make an inverted hyperbolic time field.

    So while a second/day passes for him, we get a full year to hammer away at him.
     
    Simon_Jester said:
    How do we teleport in a big army all at once while they're charging a massed barrage of Kamehamehas or whatever? The technique requires physical contact. And is there even any evidence of a much smaller being having the ability to use Instant Transmission to teleport a much larger one, or a large group of equal-sized beings?
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    I never gave it great chanced of working even if it could be technically done. I just found it to be a better idea than launching from a safe distance since we'd have to have it aimed so that it wouldn't hit the planet removing a lot of options in not letting him dodge it. The risk of massed combatants in this fight is more than just him killing them by the dozen, but also in him using them as health packs if he gets pushed*.


    *No idea on how helpful eating people can be for him, but we do know he gets stronger to some degree from it and likely more so the stronger the person was.
     
    If we're being slowed down by TK, does that mean our ki attacks aren't effected bwyond aiming? I don't think their strength comes from the speed at which they hit, unlike melee.
     
    [x][COUNTER] The dragon's big advantage is that the effect is subtle enough to miss. If you make the others aware of it and coordinate with them, you might be able to work around it.

    [X][COUNTER] Phone a friend. Grandpa Gohan, I need some help here! What do I do?! Get some advice. Get a last-minute divine power-up. Get a technique. Get something! He's a god, he'll have SOMETHING!

    I don't think we should bring more warriors here. It could be the TK is AoE and if it can bother GO, it might be able to just crush the saiyans with TK.

    I am unsure about the kaiju one. Oozaru is not just power, it is also tankiness.

    Deathbybunnies said:
    If we're being slowed down by TK, does that mean our ki attacks aren't effected bwyond aiming? I don't think their strength comes from the speed at which they hit, unlike melee.
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    Only if they are the exploding kind. Piercing attacks like makakensappo and force ones like kikoho would be affected if relented or if they have to push through the TK field. Not to mention that it might disrupt the shaping or the spin of the attacks, making the ones like Kienzan and Makakensappo less effective by dulling the edge or drilling effect.
     
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    [X][COUNTER] Phone a friend. Grandpa Gohan, I need some help here! What do I do?! Get some advice. Get a last-minute divine power-up. Get a technique. Get something! He's a god, he'll have SOMETHING!
    [X][KAIJU] No. The means by which Dazarel is dominating you isn't raw power; more blastiness is not what you need. Speed will serve you better, in exploiting whatever openings he leaves you.
    [x][COUNTER] The dragon's big advantage is that the effect is subtle enough to miss. If you make the others aware of it and coordinate with them, you might be able to work around it.
    [X][COUNTER] Willpower push. Last-minute power-ups are traditional, right?
     
    [X][COUNTER] Phone a friend. Grandpa Gohan, Ineed some help here! What do I do?! Get someadvice. Get a last-minute divine power-up. Get atechnique. Get something! He's a god, he'll have SOMETHING!
    [X][KAIJU] No. The means by which Dazarel isdominating you isn't raw power; more blastiness is not what you need. Speed will serve you better, in exploiting whatever openings he leaves you.
    [x][COUNTER] The dragon's big advantage is that the effect is subtle enough to miss. If you make the others aware of it and coordinate with them, you might be able to work around it.
     
    [X][COUNTER] Phone a friend. Grandpa Gohan, Ineed some help here! What do I do?! Get someadvice. Get a last-minute divine power-up. Get atechnique. Get something! He's a god, he'll have SOMETHING!
    [X][KAIJU] No. The means by which Dazarel isdominating you isn't raw power; more blastiness is not what you need. Speed will serve you better, in exploiting whatever openings he leaves you.
    [x][COUNTER] The dragon's big advantage is that the effect is subtle enough to miss. If you make the others aware of it and coordinate with them, you might be able to work around it.

    If we aren't going to call for help, co-ordination is what we need.

    Switching to this, due to approval voting.
     
    KaintukeeBob said:
    This is just asking for SSJ2, and that's ringing the 'Enemy come here' bell.

    Planets dying screaming when they attract the Enemy is also traditional.

    Let's not ring the Apocalypse Bell, m'kay?
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    Actually, while it could mean a ss2 transformation, it could also be just a willpower push for a traditional temporal power up.
     
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