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I know that Kakara doesn't have to worry about money now, but I was thinking back to our talk about making money by making glass. Back then we mentioned that a large part of the cost of glass is the "fuck you" cost of getting people to work with something as dangerous as liquid glass.

Taking that idea farther I wonder how much a Saiyan could make producing and transporting dangerous chemicals like Chlorine Trifluoride?
Most such chemicals require industrial facilities to make and large numbers of trained experts to handle the production equipment. Plus, the bulk of the safety equipment isn't just there to protect the workers, it's there to protect bystanders from a HAZMAT spill.

Having a superhero handling the production isn't a long-term savings if it means that the superhero gets careless and starts tolerating leaks of carcinogens or other poisons into the environment.

So basically you'd need a team of un-poisonable people (it's not clear to what extent ki powers give you toxin resistance), with very specific advanced training, operating heavy equipment that would be just about exactly as expensive as it would be anyway. Including things like elaborate decontamination gear because you have to wipe out every trace of the toxic chemical that gets into the clothes or hair or whatever of the handler. Just because they won't die from getting a whiff of the stuff doesn't mean you won't, after all.
 
Something that was bouncing around my head:

The Beginning of the End

"Guilty. Dandeer Vegeta, as Lord Vegeta I sentence you to be taken from this place..."

You knew you should have spoken up. All life was sacred, even hers. But you hadn't been able to find an argument that could convince Jaffur that he should spare her, and knew that you would be wasting your breath trying.

"...and may Yenma have mercy on your soul."

There had to have been something you could say, but you couldn't find it.

Dandeer turned, not toward the door, but toward you, and locked eyes with you. "Congratulations, Kakara. I don't know what I did to anger you the first time, but you have managed to turn my own sons against me. I cannot prevent my own loss, but I can deny you your victory." She powered up.

Jaffur raised an eyebrow. It hadn't been the first time a condemned person had tried to defy the Lords, but it was still surprising. He transformed, enough to put down anyone other than another Super Saiyan -

-which she also became. "So you compound one treason with another. It makes no difference; the sentence will have to be carried out here then."

Her power level rose, quickly reaching the cap; Jaffur's rose to match it. You also transformed; your help would probably be appreciated here. But how long had she been keeping this secret, if she could match a Lord? She threw out a hand. "Power Ball!"

Everyone in the room changed to Oozaru form. Three Golden Apes stared one another down, and several other Great Apes remained in control, but most went berserk. She didn't seem to be quite finished, though. A blast of power rang through the training hall, shredding the wards. Several poets who had not been present would later describe it as the funeral knell of a race. Everyone still sane knew exactly what it meant.

And then you saw the hand of the Greater Golden Ape reaching for you.



You are now at HAPCON 0.

[HAPCON image with unlabeled steady red light above it]

The Enemy knows your exact location and is approaching. The final countdown has begun.

More immediately, about a thousand berserk Great Apes are heading toward the surface. If they reach it, the Masquerade will be irreparably shattered.

More immediately, Dandeer has combined the SSJ2 and Great Ape forms, is currently still riding the rush from the first SSJ2 transformation, and is reaching for your throat.

Defeat Gained. The Trial of Dandeer: After freeing Jaffur from the Seal, you were unable to prevent him from passing a death sentence on Dandeer. Blaming you, she revealed that she had secretly mastered the SSJ transformation and trained to the cusp of SSJ2, which she immediately used and drew the attention of the Enemy.

[ ] Write in.


THERE IS AN EIGHT-HOUR MORATORIUM ON VOTING.

Oh wow, that's just about the worst thing that could possibly happen, short of walking into our living room to find the Enemy on our couch. Good job with this!

To be fair, I don't think we have an accurate picture of how much damage the dragon was taking in that battle.

That's a good point, but even just being able to stand up in the face of four Golden Oozarus is... not encouraging.

Uh... we won't break the Training Hall wards with a practice Spirit Bomb, because we're under no obligation to make the Spirit Bomb literally as large as possible. We can practice with it at lower power levels. Remember what Poptart said about power levels...

Oh damn, you're right! :D

Basically, what it comes down to is that if we need to gather up significantly more energy than a Golden Oozaru could throw around, we may set off the Doomsday Clock. But if we do it with a Spirit Bomb in the process of fending off an existential threat, the pulse of energy is likely to be a brief "surge" that may be overlooked, and is more likely to be overlooked than attaining a more powerful form would.

We can practice the Spirit Bomb without breaking the Training Hall wards, and in a pinch we MIGHT be able to use a high-yield Spirit Bomb in a fight without revealing Garenhuld to the larger galaxy.

By contrast, we have effectively zero chance of ascending to SSJ2 and staying there for any length of time without revealing Garenhuld to the larger galaxy, and ascending to godhood would definitely reveal us to anyone capable of sensing divine ki throughout the galaxy if not the multiverse.

[Purely speculatively, since the Spirit Bomb is the composite energy of many beings, it might actually not be detectable at a longer range than the energy of all those beings would be normally. It's not coherent. Whereas the power signature of a single powerful being would be visible at much longer ranges, because it is coherent...]

[I'd ask Poptart about this speculation, but the odds are overwhelming the only answer I'll get is "you don't know," at least until such time as we have a real live Spirit Bomb to run ki sense tests on]

I certainly hope your theory about coherency is correct. As it is, any SB we use against the Dragon will almost certainly reach the second ring of systems, either just by forming or by detonating. If the former, it's detonation may even exceed SS2 and reach further out into space. I'd also like to point out that some of us are considering absorbing SB rather than throwing it, and who knows what kind of PL that could reach... it's a last resort, of course, but it's there. Fingers crossed. Also, very good point about divine ki possible being sensible across dimensional barriers.

Oooooh, that is a GOOD point. :D

Thanks. It's kind of shocking how easy it is to forget Mind Delve is a thing. Next year we need to start on it, because having a defensless mind is... not acceptable.

Consolation prize: it is overwhelmingly likely that Gohan would be unable to help us with Mafuba.

True, and I'm grateful for that synergy between the SB and Jiichan choices. But Gohan has at least some oppotunity to see Mafuba via Super, and being a scholar and a ki user probably has at least spitballed how it might work. You're right that he wouldn't be much help regardless, though.

Do you want to gamble the survival of Garenhuld on whether or not things work that way? Bear in mind that we have no reason to assume that the Enemy can't sense divine ki. Given that he fought and defeated at least two gods over Earth, the opposite is likely true. If it is true, then a sudden source of divine ki is THE single thing most likely to draw his attention. Indeed, it is very likely that the Enemy originally targeted Earth precisely because it was the sole remaining home of saiyans, and saiyans are uniquely capable of ascending to godhood and becoming a threat to him. If we start conspicuously ascending to godhood, he has every reason to drop whatever he's doing and come running ASAP.

Another VERY good point, here, and one I hadn't considered nearly enough. Backing off the God ledge now. :p
 
By the way, @jy3 , that was a hell of a worst-case scenario you gave us there. Worth remembering. My sense of gallows humor tripped and caused me to give it a "Funny," but that's only because I have a hell of a sense of gallows humor sometimes.

This is unlikely if only because if she could have powered up enough to hurt us when she attacked us before she would have.
Point the first: Dandeer might have not been able to power up high enough to hurt us at that time, while still being able to power up high enough to hurt us at some future time.

Point the second: We know from the Cell saga that in principle, given no distractions, it is possible to attain and fully master the first order super-saiyan transformation within a single year.

Point the third: We know that it is possible to construct wards capable of warding the energy of a full-power super saiyan from the general nosy ki-sensing public, if you are a great sorceror.

Point the fourth: Dandeer is an undisputed mistress of her Art.

While I agree with every word you said aside from "that is unlikely," we should certainly bear under consideration the possibility of this event taking place as described...

I also think it would be best to act reasonably quickly to subdue Dandeer and overcome all the challenges related to the Sealing as soon as possible, in order to forestall this or some similarly ghastly outcome.
 
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Something that was bouncing around my head:

The Beginning of the End

"Guilty. Dandeer Vegeta, as Lord Vegeta I sentence you to be taken from this place..."

You knew you should have spoken up. All life was sacred, even hers. But you hadn't been able to find an argument that could convince Jaffur that he should spare her, and knew that you would be wasting your breath trying.

"...and may Yenma have mercy on your soul."

There had to have been something you could say, but you couldn't find it.

Dandeer turned, not toward the door, but toward you, and locked eyes with you. "Congratulations, Kakara. I don't know what I did to anger you the first time, but you have managed to turn my own sons against me. I cannot prevent my own loss, but I can deny you your victory." She powered up.

Jaffur raised an eyebrow. It hadn't been the first time a condemned person had tried to defy the Lords, but it was still surprising. He transformed, enough to put down anyone other than another Super Saiyan -

-which she also became. "So you compound one treason with another. It makes no difference; the sentence will have to be carried out here then."

Her power level rose, quickly reaching the cap; Jaffur's rose to match it. You also transformed; your help would probably be appreciated here. But how long had she been keeping this secret, if she could match a Lord? She threw out a hand. "Power Ball!"

Everyone in the room changed to Oozaru form. Three Golden Apes stared one another down, and several other Great Apes remained in control, but most went berserk. She didn't seem to be quite finished, though. A blast of power rang through the training hall, shredding the wards. Several poets who had not been present would later describe it as the funeral knell of a race. Everyone still sane knew exactly what it meant.

And then you saw the hand of the Greater Golden Ape reaching for you.



You are now at HAPCON 0.

[HAPCON image with unlabeled steady red light above it]

The Enemy knows your exact location and is approaching. The final countdown has begun.

More immediately, about a thousand berserk Great Apes are heading toward the surface. If they reach it, the Masquerade will be irreparably shattered.

More immediately, Dandeer has combined the SSJ2 and Great Ape forms, is currently still riding the rush from the first SSJ2 transformation, and is reaching for your throat.

Defeat Gained. The Trial of Dandeer: After freeing Jaffur from the Seal, you were unable to prevent him from passing a death sentence on Dandeer. Blaming you, she revealed that she had secretly mastered the SSJ transformation and trained to the cusp of SSJ2, which she immediately used and drew the attention of the Enemy.

[ ] Write in.


THERE IS AN EIGHT-HOUR MORATORIUM ON VOTING.
Ooh, somebody's giving me ideas~ :rofl::evil: Non-canon, of course, and with your bonus going towards preventing your attempts at reversing the Sealing from going hideously far south.
Mitsuba:

"How are his odds looking against Cynthia? I can think of a few people I'd bet on against her, but not many."
The betting booths have the odds slewing quite a bit as the booth reevaluates the situation back and forth, but the mathematical average is 7-to-1 in favor of Cynthia.
 
The betting booths have the odds slewing quite a bit as the booth reevaluates the situation back and forth, but the mathematical average is 7-to-1 in favor of Cynthia.
Since the bettors have actually seen Cynthia fight, unlike yesterday, and since Snapp presumably competed and was seen fighting yesterday, I suspect that the odds are a lot more realistically balanced this time than they were last time, when everyone bet on Mitsuba to overcome the unknown 'amateur' challenger.

There's likely to be some systematic bias in Cynthia's favor coming from "whoa, she beat one of the top 10-20 competitors on the Cap Circuit," but I don't think that would be enough to push the real odds that far in her favor. Not assuming the bettors have seen Snapp fight.
 
Let's not get too confident.

The problem with using Seer powers to counter the actions of a generally nasty person who has lots of options for ruining your day is that anything you do to prevent them from doing something nasty will just result in them doing something else nasty.

It'd be a lot easier to use Seer powers to escape disaster if the disaster in question didn't involve an intelligent being specifically trying to counter your actions and make disaster happen.

...

Instead of brainstorming reasons why this bad-news scenario and others like it can't happen, how about we put a bit of effort into thinking of ways we could be sure it isn't in the process of happening, while we still have time to prevent it? What assets do we have, that could reduce the likelihood of Dandeer attaining the full powered super-saiyan state without our knowledge?
 
Instead of brainstorming reasons why this bad-news scenario and others like it can't happen, how about we put a bit of effort into thinking of ways we could be sure it isn't in the process of happening, while we still have time to prevent it? What assets do we have, that could reduce the likelihood of Dandeer attaining the full powered super-saiyan state without our knowledge?
Well she is a public figure so she being tracked more than the average. Check to see how much she is using the training rooms in the hall if she is at all. In fact her training at all would be suspicious.
 
You're not wrong, not one bit.

That said... she's a master sorceress. She could very possibly make her own specially warded training room, like the Senzus'.

What else can we think of?
 
You're not wrong, not one bit.

That said... she's a master sorceress. She could very possibly make her own specially warded training room, like the Senzus'.

What else can we think of?
Even the Senzus were not able to make a warded training room that can handle SS levels of power.

If it were that easy there would be more than one hall.
 
The royals have good reasons to restrict the creation of wards capable of handling super-saiyan power levels. Before Dandelor Senzu cast that spell that wiped people's awareness of the Senzus' location,* presumably the Vegetan line of royals would periodically check to make sure their training room was still in compliance. Especially after Yammar put down House Talt.

You're right to assume that Dandelor's abilities are a rough match for Dandeer and give us a rough benchmark for what she can and cannot do.

But remember, just because Dandelor didn't make a training room that could be used to go super-saiyan, doesn't mean Dandeer can't.
____________________________

*Footnote: This may be me misremembering how the Senzus pulled off their 'internal exile' after the Sealing, but I'm pretty sure that's how it went.
 
The royals have good reasons to restrict the creation of wards capable of handling super-saiyan power levels. Before Dandelor Senzu cast that spell that wiped people's awareness of the Senzus' location,* presumably the Vegetan line of royals would periodically check to make sure their training room was still in compliance. Especially after Yammar put down House Talt.

You're right to assume that Dandelor's abilities are a rough match for Dandeer and give us a rough benchmark for what she can and cannot do.

But remember, just because Dandelor didn't make a training room that could be used to go super-saiyan, doesn't mean Dandeer can't.
____________________________

*Footnote: This may be me misremembering how the Senzus pulled off their 'internal exile' after the Sealing, but I'm pretty sure that's how it went.
However, I'm going to point out that the wards on the training hall is something that required dozens, if not hundreds of sorcerers working together over years/decades/centuries.
 
The Hall is really big. Did it take many sorcerors many years to ward because of how heavy the wards are, or because of how physically large the warded volume is? Could a comparably high-end training room designed to accommodate only one person be made in less time by a single woman?

I'm not trying to assume this can happen, I'm trying to hypothesize that perhaps it can, and see if the question "if she were doing this, how would she do this" leads us logically to any useful precautions we could take.
 
The Hall is really big. Did it take many sorcerors many years to ward because of how heavy the wards are, or because of how physically large the warded volume is? Could a comparably high-end training room designed to accommodate only one person be made in less time by a single woman?

I'm not trying to assume this can happen, I'm trying to hypothesize that perhaps it can, and see if the question "if she were doing this, how would she do this" leads us logically to any useful precautions we could take.
That answer to all of that is "we don't know, because we know nothing about how magic works". Theorising is therefore rather pointless.

The things we do know are:
1) Only the Training Hall has wards that can hide a SSJ.
2) The Senzu do not have wards that good.
3) A house that secret trained SSJ did so in the Training Hall.
 
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Let me see if I understand your argument. It looks like it's based on three premises with two conclusions:

1) Premise: The Senzu do not have wards that good (therefore private SSJ-capable training rooms cannot exist)
2) Premise: A house that secret trained SSJ did so in the Training Hall (therefore private SSJ-capable training rooms do not exist)
3) Premise: Only the Training Hall has wards that can hide a SSJ (therefore we'd know if she were training herself up)

4) Conclusion: Because of (1) and (2), Dandeer cannot construct her own SSJ-capable training room.
5) Conclusion: Therefore, because of (3), Dandeer cannot become a super-saiyan, nor train up her SSJ powers, in secret.

...

(1) does not support (4) because the Senzu have good reasons to not try to have an SSJ-capable training room. If they ever did, they would have been forced by Yammar to de-ward their room after the Talt rebellion and start over with something that would pop like a soap bubble under SSJ power levels, like what they now have. Even now, they have taken pains NOT to go super-saiyan despite years of formally being in rebellion, precisely because they do not want to commit that unforgivable offense. (1) is at best weak evidence for (4), because there is little or no evidence that the Senzu WANT wards that good, when the very existence of wards that good would be evidence of intent to rebel.

(2) does not support (4) well, because it is unclear how much sorcerous support the Talts had in their rebellion. Now, it would clearly take top-flight sorcery support to create an SSJ-capable training room, even assuming if this can be done at all[/i]. The Talts may simply not have had the resources to accomplish this thing.

...

With (4) being at best poorly supported by a mix of circumstantial and weak evidence, (3) stops being a matter of "fact that we know" and becomes "my opinion." This opinion may very well be true, but it's not certain to be true, and should not be treated as grounds to just completely ignore the entire question.

And since (3) is far from certain, conclusion (5), the important one, falls apart. We can say that Dandeer probably doesn't plan on becoming a super-saiyan in secret and probably can't do so, but we can't say she definitely can't do so in the sense that she cannot perform other extraordinary feats (say, growing Senzu beans on her own, or becoming a Seer).



Now, just to make this extremely clear, I am not asserting that Dandeer does have secret plans to become a super-saiyan and ruin our day in that specific fashion. I am not even asserting that she can accomplish this thing. I am asserting that there are specific, plausible mechanisms, using only known tools and resources that we know Dandeer has, by which she might be able to accomplish this thing.

So for example, we MIIIIGHT maybe kinda sorta want to at least brainstorm a little about how we might test for whether this alarming possibility is or is not a real threat that might actually materialize.

How might we test? What are our assets?

Well, to think a little:

1) Kakara has very possibly the best ki sense on the planet. Is there a way to tell the difference by 'feel' between the ki of a person who has SSJ-level powers but is not using them and has not powered up, versus the ki of a person who lacks such powers?

2) We might be able to quiz Jaffur/Jaron and thus get partial information on Dandeer's movements. Does she conspicuously spend significant amounts of time away from home that are not accounted for by her known, normal activities? Does she show signs of fatigue or other evidence of undergoing heavy power level training?

3) We may be able to scan obvious areas where Dandeer might hypothetically hide a small warded training room (such as under her own house), although I'm pretty sure we couldn't scan all of Garenhuld in this way, so we might not be able to find a secret training room if she's put it somewhere out in the wilderness.

4) If we get an opportunity to talk to a friendly sorceror, or for that matter to Berra/Apra/Yammar, we might ask if they know whether or not a sufficiently skilled sorceror could create such a room for themselves, at least in principle.

These would all be relatively easy precautions to take, so we might want to consider one or more of them. (2) in particular might be useful for detecting other entirely different categories of things Dandeer could menace us with, and so might (3).
 
Let's not get too confident.

The problem with using Seer powers to counter the actions of a generally nasty person who has lots of options for ruining your day is that anything you do to prevent them from doing something nasty will just result in them doing something else nasty.

It'd be a lot easier to use Seer powers to escape disaster if the disaster in question didn't involve an intelligent being specifically trying to counter your actions and make disaster happen.

...

Instead of brainstorming reasons why this bad-news scenario and others like it can't happen, how about we put a bit of effort into thinking of ways we could be sure it isn't in the process of happening, while we still have time to prevent it? What assets do we have, that could reduce the likelihood of Dandeer attaining the full powered super-saiyan state without our knowledge?

We know, already, in particular... Actually, I'm not entirely sure this has entirely cropped up in the quest. Part of this might be RP spoilers. Hrmmm.

Okay, we know for sure that Sight can be blocked-the Dragon, the Enemy, possibly others, but those two at least have done it.

And I know from the RP that magic in general is capable of sight blocking, and Dandeer is a Sorcerer. Or... Is Sorceress the proper term or is Exile use of Sorcerer ungendered? Hrmm. Anyways, point is, Dandeer is a class of being capable of Sight blocking who knows she has to worry about Seers.
 
I don't think I've actually voted yet.

Is the vote still open?

Inserting a tally in any case.

Including some votes, too.

[x] Spirit bomb research aid.
[X] Just to spend time.

Because I miss Grandpa Gohan, but we also gotta kill some shit soon.
Adhoc vote count started by KaintukeeBob on Oct 22, 2017 at 3:37 PM, finished with 19424 posts and 17 votes.
 
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Let me see if I understand your argument. It looks like it's based on three premises with two conclusions:

1) Premise: The Senzu do not have wards that good (therefore private SSJ-capable training rooms cannot exist)
2) Premise: A house that secret trained SSJ did so in the Training Hall (therefore private SSJ-capable training rooms do not exist)
3) Premise: Only the Training Hall has wards that can hide a SSJ (therefore we'd know if she were training herself up)

4) Conclusion: Because of (1) and (2), Dandeer cannot construct her own SSJ-capable training room.
5) Conclusion: Therefore, because of (3), Dandeer cannot become a super-saiyan, nor train up her SSJ powers, in secret.

...

(1) does not support (4) because the Senzu have good reasons to not try to have an SSJ-capable training room. If they ever did, they would have been forced by Yammar to de-ward their room after the Talt rebellion and start over with something that would pop like a soap bubble under SSJ power levels, like what they now have. Even now, they have taken pains NOT to go super-saiyan despite years of formally being in rebellion, precisely because they do not want to commit that unforgivable offense. (1) is at best weak evidence for (4), because there is little or no evidence that the Senzu WANT wards that good, when the very existence of wards that good would be evidence of intent to rebel.

(2) does not support (4) well, because it is unclear how much sorcerous support the Talts had in their rebellion. Now, it would clearly take top-flight sorcery support to create an SSJ-capable training room, even assuming if this can be done at all[/i]. The Talts may simply not have had the resources to accomplish this thing.

...

With (4) being at best poorly supported by a mix of circumstantial and weak evidence, (3) stops being a matter of "fact that we know" and becomes "my opinion." This opinion may very well be true, but it's not certain to be true, and should not be treated as grounds to just completely ignore the entire question.

And since (3) is far from certain, conclusion (5), the important one, falls apart. We can say that Dandeer probably doesn't plan on becoming a super-saiyan in secret and probably can't do so, but we can't say she definitely can't do so in the sense that she cannot perform other extraordinary feats (say, growing Senzu beans on her own, or becoming a Seer).



Now, just to make this extremely clear, I am not asserting that Dandeer does have secret plans to become a super-saiyan and ruin our day in that specific fashion. I am not even asserting that she can accomplish this thing. I am asserting that there are specific, plausible mechanisms, using only known tools and resources that we know Dandeer has, by which she might be able to accomplish this thing.

So for example, we MIIIIGHT maybe kinda sorta want to at least brainstorm a little about how we might test for whether this alarming possibility is or is not a real threat that might actually materialize.

How might we test? What are our assets?

Well, to think a little:

1) Kakara has very possibly the best ki sense on the planet. Is there a way to tell the difference by 'feel' between the ki of a person who has SSJ-level powers but is not using them and has not powered up, versus the ki of a person who lacks such powers?

2) We might be able to quiz Jaffur/Jaron and thus get partial information on Dandeer's movements. Does she conspicuously spend significant amounts of time away from home that are not accounted for by her known, normal activities? Does she show signs of fatigue or other evidence of undergoing heavy power level training?

3) We may be able to scan obvious areas where Dandeer might hypothetically hide a small warded training room (such as under her own house), although I'm pretty sure we couldn't scan all of Garenhuld in this way, so we might not be able to find a secret training room if she's put it somewhere out in the wilderness.

4) If we get an opportunity to talk to a friendly sorceror, or for that matter to Berra/Apra/Yammar, we might ask if they know whether or not a sufficiently skilled sorceror could create such a room for themselves, at least in principle.

These would all be relatively easy precautions to take, so we might want to consider one or more of them. (2) in particular might be useful for detecting other entirely different categories of things Dandeer could menace us with, and so might (3).
If you focus really hard at close range for a few seconds, you can get echoes of a person's max power if they're not actively suppressing.
 
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