The Saiyan God Ritual is probably the only place in the DBZverse that you're wrong in that; just knowing how to do it lets you immediately ascend, provided you have five Saiyans. And the fight may not require it, but the Dragon is already an existential threat we need to use anything we can get to beat. That being said, I hadn't really considered the probable issues with pulling off the Ritual... if we need five Super Saiyans, or four and a crazy-strong baby who makes her Mom's hair blonde, than we're screwed. We'd only have three righteous hearted candidates than, maybe four if Jaffur counts, but definitely not five since Yammar is... Yammar. So yeah, I agree we shouldn't go for this... yet.
Yeah, I was going to argue with you but you kinda talked yourself out of your position, so... yeah. But I honestly think that finding the group would be the least of out problems.
Aside from the whole "being unused to a form drastically reducing our ability to use it to its fullest" thing, (see SSJ3, Golden Form, and any time Ginyu swaps bodies) we have an even bigger threat: If SSJ2 puts us at risk of being discovered by the Enemy, how much at risk would we be at SSJG levels?
I don't think SSJG necessarily means you have a higher power level. It just means your ki is God ki rather than ordinary ki which seems to be better in about every way.
I don't think SSJG necessarily means you have a higher power level. It just means your ki is God ki rather than ordinary ki which seems to be better in about every way.
Y'know, reading all that RP stuff is making me seriously consider changing my vote to the God Ritual. After all, surely Gohan could be persuaded in the face of such a threat to Ka-chan; that's probably the only time he could be. And we do have Exceptional communication...
Long term, we don't need the god ritual to potentially become a god. Long term, gods are not an 'I win' button against the Enemy, and even if they were, mass ascending Saiyans to godhood and eliminating the unifying threat sounds very dangerous.
Short term, I don't believe we need it for the dragon, and do believe it risks Enemy attention.
To be honest... I have the faint inkling that there may be a diplomatic approach we're missing with the dragon. I know that sounds dumb, but PoptartProdigy has said that for every situation there is a "FIGHT" option and a "DIPLO" option, unless I'm entirely mistaken... (and I could be)
To be honest... I have the faint inkling that there may be a diplomatic approach we're missing with the dragon. I know that sounds dumb, but PoptartProdigy has said that for every situation there is a "FIGHT" option and a "DIPLO" option, unless I'm entirely mistaken... (and I could be)
That reminds me: with that, we know that Kakara now has enough money to feed a Saiyan family of four for 7,856 months, or 654 years.
Assuming that feeding said family for a month is the equivalent $3,500 USD, that means Kakara now has the equivalent of $27,492,500 (after paying Berra back the 100 zeni).
And now I'm wondering how much she won from the shooting competition. Also, wasn't there supposed to be a follow up vote for what we did with the winnings?
I don't think SSJG necessarily means you have a higher power level. It just means your ki is God ki rather than ordinary ki which seems to be better in about every way.
Considering God Ritual is Super-tier stuff, and the Enemy went after a post-Super Earth... Yeah, not interested yet. We need to get far stronger before doing that...
Also I'm pretty sure using enough God Ki within the wards to enter the red form would cause the wards to snap like a tense string. Which would be bad.
Yeah, I was going to argue with you but you kinda talked yourself out of your position, so... yeah. But I honestly think that finding the group would be the least of out problems.
Aside from the whole "being unused to a form drastically reducing our ability to use it to its fullest" thing, (see SSJ3, Golden Form, and any time Ginyu swaps bodies) we have an even bigger threat: If SSJ2 puts us at risk of being discovered by the Enemy, how much at risk would we be at SSJG levels?
Long term, we don't need the god ritual to potentially become a god. Long term, gods are not an 'I win' button against the Enemy, and even if they were, mass ascending Saiyans to godhood and eliminating the unifying threat sounds very dangerous.
Short term, I don't believe we need it for the dragon, and do believe it risks Enemy attention.
After a lot of back and forth with myself, I've settled on sticking with Spirit Bomb, but not for these reasons.
I'm fully aware that Saiyan God stands a strong chance of starting the Doomsday Clock, and that we can't count on the Enemy not being able to sense God ki. In this case though, we are facing an existential threat second only to the Big Bad. Not starting the Clock is pointless if the Dragon kills us all. Everybody understands this in trying to get Spirit Bomb, which has a similar chance of breaking the wards. Now considering the Dragon can tank an attack from four Golden Oozarus seemingly unscathed... I don't think it's beyond the pale to suggest we have the Ritual in our back pocket in case we have to escalate. We may break the wards, but we'd live, which is a risk we're already undertaking with SB. And unlike trying to unlock SSJ2, the Ritual is 1) very easy to unlock, just get the information, and 2) allows you to hold it in reserve upon gaining it rather than shattering the wards immediately.
Furthermore, even unused to the form like Goku was in Battle of the Gods, it still provides a far bigger boost than SS3. Now hopefully that's overkill for this, but we just don't have any idea how wide the gap is. Also, I'm not suggesting we spread it around to all the Exiles, or anyone at all; just that Kakara herself has the knowledge if she needs it. And considering the RP stuff, this is probably one of the only times we can convince Gohan to give it to us; a situation where there's little chance of closing the gap with a foe who can't be talked out of killing us all.
However, the reason I'm sticking with Spirit Bomb is that, for the exact same reason that Gohan would give us the Ritual, he'll put that brain of his to work trying to reverse engineer SB for us. Another, even bigger reason, is that as great as Saiyan God might be for the Dragon, I don't want Kakara to have that knowledge until our Mind Delve is maxed out so people can't take it from us. Yes, they could do that with SB too, but it's a lot harder to reach that level of power needed to hurt FPSS without tons of willing participants, and if we've sown that much discontent among the Exiles we probably deserve the rebellion. But if the Ritual can be done with non-SS, there's no stopping them. SB stands just a good a chance of beating the Dragon, but has only two of the same risks as the Ritual (the secret getting out and breaking the wards), and stands a better chance of getting taught to us.
Anyway, let's stick the landing with Spirit Bomb here and hope the Enemy doesn't notice. (Which, incidentally, is why I wanted Mafuba instead. )
"Guilty. Dandeer Vegeta, as Lord Vegeta I sentence you to be taken from this place..."
You knew you should have spoken up. All life was sacred, even hers. But you hadn't been able to find an argument that could convince Jaffur that he should spare her, and knew that you would be wasting your breath trying.
"...and may Yenma have mercy on your soul."
There had to have been something you could say, but you couldn't find it.
Dandeer turned, not toward the door, but toward you, and locked eyes with you. "Congratulations, Kakara. I don't know what I did to anger you the first time, but you have managed to turn my own sons against me. I cannot prevent my own loss, but I can deny you your victory." She powered up.
Jaffur raised an eyebrow. It hadn't been the first time a condemned person had tried to defy the Lords, but it was still surprising. He transformed, enough to put down anyone other than another Super Saiyan -
-which she also became. "So you compound one treason with another. It makes no difference; the sentence will have to be carried out here then."
Her power level rose, quickly reaching the cap; Jaffur's rose to match it. You also transformed; your help would probably be appreciated here. But how long had she been keeping this secret, if she could match a Lord? She threw out a hand. "Power Ball!"
Everyone in the room changed to Oozaru form. Three Golden Apes stared one another down, and several other Great Apes remained in control, but most went berserk. She didn't seem to be quite finished, though. A blast of power rang through the training hall, shredding the wards. Several poets who had not been present would later describe it as the funeral knell of a race. Everyone still sane knew exactly what it meant.
And then you saw the hand of the Greater Golden Ape reaching for you. You are now at HAPCON 0.
[HAPCON image with unlabeled steady red light above it]
The Enemy knows your exact location and is approaching. The final countdown has begun.
More immediately, about a thousand berserk Great Apes are heading toward the surface. If they reach it, the Masquerade will be irreparably shattered.
More immediately, Dandeer has combined the SSJ2 and Great Ape forms, is currently still riding the rush from the first SSJ2 transformation, and is reaching for your throat.
Defeat Gained. The Trial of Dandeer: After freeing Jaffur from the Seal, you were unable to prevent him from passing a death sentence on Dandeer. Blaming you, she revealed that she had secretly mastered the SSJ transformation and trained to the cusp of SSJ2, which she immediately used and drew the attention of the Enemy.
"Guilty. Dandeer Vegeta, as Lord Vegeta I sentence you to be taken from this place..."
You knew you should have spoken up. All life was sacred, even hers. But you hadn't been able to find an argument that could convince Jaffur that he should spare her, and knew that you would be wasting your breath trying.
"...and may Yenma have mercy on your soul."
There had to have been something you could say, but you couldn't find it.
Dandeer turned, not toward the door, but toward you, and locked eyes with you. "Congratulations, Kakara. I don't know what I did to anger you the first time, but you have managed to turn my own sons against me. I cannot prevent my own loss, but I can deny you your victory." She powered up.
Jaffur raised an eyebrow. It hadn't been the first time a condemned person had tried to defy the Lords, but it was still surprising. He transformed, enough to put down anyone other than another Super Saiyan -
-which she also became. "So you compound one treason with another. It makes no difference; the sentence will have to be carried out here then."
Her power level rose, quickly reaching the cap; Jaffur's rose to match it. You also transformed; your help would probably be appreciated here. But how long had she been keeping this secret, if she could match a Lord? She threw out a hand. "Power Ball!"
Everyone in the room changed to Oozaru form. Three Golden Apes stared one another down, and several other Great Apes remained in control, but most went berserk. She didn't seem to be quite finished, though. A blast of power rang through the training hall, shredding the wards. Several poets who had not been present would later describe it as the funeral knell of a race. Everyone still sane knew exactly what it meant.
And then you saw the hand of the Greater Golden Ape reaching for you. You are now at HAPCON 0.
[HAPCON image with unlabeled steady red light above it]
The Enemy knows your exact location and is approaching. The final countdown has begun.
More immediately, about a thousand berserk Great Apes are heading toward the surface. If they reach it, the Masquerade will be irreparably shattered.
More immediately, Dandeer has combined the SSJ2 and Great Ape forms, is currently still riding the rush from the first SSJ2 transformation, and is reaching for your throat.
Defeat Gained. The Trial of Dandeer: After freeing Jaffur from the Seal, you were unable to prevent him from passing a death sentence on Dandeer. Blaming you, she revealed that she had secretly mastered the SSJ transformation and trained to the cusp of SSJ2, which she immediately used and drew the attention of the Enemy.
I'm fully aware that Saiyan God stands a strong chance of starting the Doomsday Clock, and that we can't count on the Enemy not being able to sense God ki. In this case though, we are facing an existential threat second only to the Big Bad. Not starting the Clock is pointless if the Dragon kills us all. Everybody understands this in trying to get Spirit Bomb, which has a similar chance of breaking the wards. Now considering the Dragon can tank an attack from four Golden Oozarus seemingly unscathed...
To be fair, I don't think we have an accurate picture of how much damage the dragon was taking in that battle.
I don't think it's beyond the pale to suggest we have the Ritual in our back pocket in case we have to escalate. We may break the wards, but we'd live, which is a risk we're already undertaking with SB.
Uh... we won't break the Training Hall wards with a practice Spirit Bomb, because we're under no obligation to make the Spirit Bomb literally as large as possible. We can practice with it at lower power levels. Remember what Poptart said about power levels...
PoptartProdigy said:
The power level restrictions are based on how far away something can be sensed. For instance, SSJ2 power levels are something that could be sensed in the second ring of systems distant from Garenhuld, where there is occasional civilian traffic from the deeper galaxy, and thus it is prohibited (the slippery slope you identify also applies). FPSSJ is on a, "use your discretion," limiter because it could be sensed from the first ring and somebody might theoretically pass through those at some point, not that it's likely. Golden Oozaru...it's very close, but the Exiles think that it could not be sensed from the second ring save by somebody who was extremely good at Ki Sense. So it's permitted, but only in the sense that you won't be immediately attacked if you use it. You are expected to pull it out only in the last extremes of desperation.
Basically, what it comes down to is that if we need to gather up significantly more energy than a Golden Oozaru could throw around, we may set off the Doomsday Clock. But if we do it with a Spirit Bomb in the process of fending off an existential threat, the pulse of energy is likely to be a brief "surge" that may be overlooked, and is more likely to be overlooked than attaining a more powerful form would.
We can practice the Spirit Bomb without breaking the Training Hall wards, and in a pinch we MIGHT be able to use a high-yield Spirit Bomb in a fight without revealing Garenhuld to the larger galaxy.
By contrast, we have effectively zero chance of ascending to SSJ2 and staying there for any length of time without revealing Garenhuld to the larger galaxy, and ascending to godhood would definitely reveal us to anyone capable of sensing divine ki throughout the galaxy if not the multiverse.
[Purely speculatively, since the Spirit Bomb is the composite energy of many beings, it might actually not be detectable at a longer range than the energy of all those beings would be normally. It's not coherent. Whereas the power signature of a single powerful being would be visible at much longer ranges, because it is coherent...]
[I'd ask Poptart about this speculation, but the odds are overwhelming the only answer I'll get is "you don't know," at least until such time as we have a real live Spirit Bomb to run ki sense tests on]
However, the reason I'm sticking with Spirit Bomb is that, for the exact same reason that Gohan would give us the Ritual, he'll put that brain of his to work trying to reverse engineer SB for us. Another, even bigger reason, is that as great as Saiyan God might be for the Dragon, I don't want Kakara to have that knowledge until our Mind Delve is maxed out so people can't take it from us.
Seriously, if we don't want the Ancestor Cult to obsessively geek out over us even harder than otherwise, our best bet is to simply say we had dreams, be vague about dreams of what, and say that it helped us complete our research. No one's going to be THAT surprised if the ki prodigy Scion manages to figure out a lost technique, after successfully attaining Golden Oozaru.
(I almost said 'say we had visions,' then remembered we're keeping Seer powers a relative secret)
What in the world is on that paperwork? What information is needed to be filled out? This is sounding like punishment makework rather then something needed for the smooth running of the heavens.
I mean, in real life there are things like environmental impact statements for major industrial facilities, which would take a single person years or decades to complete. In practice we hire whole teams to work on this. I can actually understand very easily creating a situation like that.
From a certain point of view, if Gohan (who is a god) brings in Kakara as a god, Gohan should totally end up spending the rest of the century filling out a theological impact statement. It's not unfair to expect him to account for how the presence of Kakara in the pantheon for the rest of the lifetime of the universe will affect the overall welfare and stability of the universe as a whole.
Honestly, if I were an immortal god who ran a celestial bureaucracy, I might require quite a lot more paperwork than that, though I'd probably permit the responsible god to have staffers help do some of the legwork on the theological impact statements.
I don't think SSJG necessarily means you have a higher power level. It just means your ki is God ki rather than ordinary ki which seems to be better in about every way.
Do you want to gamble the survival of Garenhuld on whether or not things work that way? Bear in mind that we have no reason to assume that the Enemy can't sense divine ki. Given that he fought and defeated at least two gods over Earth, the opposite is likely true. If it is true, then a sudden source of divine ki is THE single thing most likely to draw his attention. Indeed, it is very likely that the Enemy originally targeted Earth precisely because it was the sole remaining home of saiyans, and saiyans are uniquely capable of ascending to godhood and becoming a threat to him. If we start conspicuously ascending to godhood, he has every reason to drop whatever he's doing and come running ASAP.
It borders on certainty that Gohan does not know Perfect Multiform given how obscure the technique is and that he never used it in any canon I'm aware of.
I think he might be unhappy with us if we do that before we resolve the Sealing. Originally he didn't want us interacting with him too much until that was taken care of.
To be honest... I have the faint inkling that there may be a diplomatic approach we're missing with the dragon. I know that sounds dumb, but PoptartProdigy has said that for every situation there is a "FIGHT" option and a "DIPLO" option, unless I'm entirely mistaken... (and I could be)
I bet there IS a diplomatic option with the dragon- but I also bet that we won't know what it is until we meet the dragon.
We've already stacked up about as many traits and abilities as possible to our ability to talk down a dangerous opponent. If the dragon presents us with a diplomatic option, we're more likely to be able to achieve it than we ever would have been before.
I know that Kakara doesn't have to worry about money now, but I was thinking back to our talk about making money by making glass. Back then we mentioned that a large part of the cost of glass is the "fuck you" cost of getting people to work with something as dangerous as liquid glass.
Taking that idea farther I wonder how much a Saiyan could make producing and transporting dangerous chemicals like Chlorine Trifluoride?
Do you want to gamble the survival of Garenhuld on whether or not things work that way? Bear in mind that we have no reason to assume that the Enemy can't sense divine ki. Given that he fought and defeated at least two gods over Earth, the opposite is likely true. If it is true, then a sudden source of divine ki is THE single thing most likely to draw his attention. Indeed, it is very likely that the Enemy originally targeted Earth precisely because it was the sole remaining home of saiyans, and saiyans are uniquely capable of ascending to godhood and becoming a threat to him. If we start conspicuously ascending to godhood, he has every reason to drop whatever he's doing and come running ASAP.
Gods do seem more capable than 'mere' ki fighters and wizards at not instantly dying. Then again, he's apparently a Sorcerer himself so. Uh. But anyways, certainly gods seem relatively threatening in general.
Seriously, if we don't want the Ancestor Cult to obsessively geek out over us even harder than otherwise, our best bet is to simply say we had dreams, be vague about dreams of what, and say that it helped us complete our research. No one's going to be THAT surprised if the ki prodigy Scion manages to figure out a lost technique, after successfully attaining Golden Oozaru.
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