Dragon Ball: After the End

[Lailoken]

And I'll note that not a single goddamn bit of the planning included freeing Vegeta. And yes, the Senzu's were rebelling, for Jaffur, not Vegeta, who they described as "decent" at ruling.

Also, I think you might be viewing Dandeer's attitude as more common then it is.

As for caring...

The position of Clan Senzu on releasing Lord Vegeta, straight from the mouth of Raditz, is "I would prefer no to". The Seers? If he's properly asleep, and going through the mental yo-yoing Jaron is, won't put up a fuss as they didn't beforehand. Yammar? Not his sons biggest fan right now. Kakara? Does not care about him. Berra? Willing to let it continue.

Actually, the only people aware of what he was doing was his immediate family and the Goku family, and even then, there were those related to him that weren't aware of what was going on, such as Yammar. Poptart has previously mentioned that all the abuse was subtle/hidden, and that him showing off his horrible nature in public like he did would have had negative consequences for him if Dandeer had beaten them to the punch. Such as Yammar finding out what was going on.

You do realize that Kakara teases Jaron, and the rest of the Misfits, all the time right?

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-and even neutered Jaron is visibly uncomfortable with it. He never reciprocates. This is a kid who literally hurts to smile. Full Jaron, and especially Jaffur will be even worse. The last time Jaffur experienced teasing it was, "Ha ha, even that pathetic weakling girl is better than you. No wonder you couldn't stop me from slamming you into the ground at Mach 20 in the main arena in the main gathering point of our entire race full of witnesses and living quarters. Now I'm going to go out of my way to pointlessly deny you clearly necessary medical attention from one of the many witnesses simply because I like making you suffer in agony and humiliation and nobody will ever care enough about you to stop me."

In the same way that launching a surprise lethal finishing blow an inch from an unsuspecting stranger's nose is what he thinks of as, "hello", that is what "teasing" means to him.

 

[Bakkasama]

Aren't you overreacting? We were bantering with Jaffur and he was teasing us about our height in the update. So clearly he is not THAT socially awkward.

 

[PoptartProdigy]

Also, folks, I'll note that, "Investigate Clan Vegeta," is an option every year for a reason.

You may find yourselves well-advised to revise downward your estimates on how thorough your knowledge is on Clan Vegeta's opinions on Jaffur's home life.

 

[Lailoken]

Aren't you overreacting? We were bantering with Jaffur and he was teasing us about our height in the update. So clearly he is not THAT socially awkward.

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They won that round handily and cooperatively as a defensive reaction to her upsetting and extremely inappropriate invasion of their personal space. It was, at best, Kakara taking a hit to let them reassert their personal agency after she violated it. Do you really want to take the chance of trying to turn them against each other? Two confused pubescent boys being asked to help a girl tease each other about another girl? It may work out fine, it may blow up in our face, and it will almost certainly strain the extremely awkward introverts. It'll be another violation, and while slow, controlled, consensual stretching of their comfort zones might be helpful long-term their strain is currently our time limit. There will be plenty of time to figure out how to socialize after we get him free. Stay on target.

 

[KaintukeeBob]

Also, folks, I'll note that, "Investigate Clan Vegeta," is an option every year for a reason.

You may find yourselves well-advised to revise downward your estimates on how thorough your knowledge is on Clan Vegeta's opinions on Jaffur's home life.

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I think there may be a subtle hint buried in this message.

I just can't tell what it might be indicating...

 

[Bakkasama]

I think there may be a subtle hint buried in this message.

I just can't tell what it might be indicating...

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Obviously that we shouldn't concern ourselves with other people's opinion. If what we are doing is right, what do we care what they think?

 

[Lailoken]

I think there may be a subtle hint buried in this message.

I just can't tell what it might be indicating...

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It's indicating that the only real evidence of how seriously Vegetans take Vegeta's domestic abuse are the facts that he felt absolutely no hesitation about viciously crippling and mocking his eight-year-old son in the town square, and that despite this sort of public behavior everybody, even the people who think he's a personal monster, still agree that he was an effective leader whom they were better off with in a position of authority than thrown out of it.

He feels no compunctions about letting it be known, and however anyone may feel about it, nobody cares enough to actually try to have him out of power over it.

 

[Mikeline]

Also, folks, I'll note that, "Investigate Clan Vegeta," is an option every year for a reason.

You may find yourselves well-advised to revise downward your estimates on how thorough your knowledge is on Clan Vegeta's opinions on Jaffur's home life.

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Huh. Now I want to ask Jaffur about his dad even more. Were the other Vegetans okay with Lord Vegeta's treatment of his son? Maybe they view it as something all of their Scions must endure.
I think we shouldn't use an action on the teasing, it may be cute, but it may backfire, and it won't really help our situation.

 

[Lailoken]

I'll note that if we want to get the feel of some Vegetan opinions without going all-in on the high risk sneaking action, we do have a side door. The church is roughly evenly composed of the clans and they'd certainly love to have Kakara come by and socialize at any activities regardless of host clan.

 

[redzonejoe]

[X] [DEATH] Suggest he hold off on that, at least temporarily. The official reason for the Sealing is that you were dangerously insane and violent. Avoid feeding into that.

[][AFTER] Ask why the hug was (so very clearly) not okay.

[][AFTER] Ask Jaffur why he was so obsessed with you when you first met.

[X][AFTER] Ask about that fight. Jaffur looked like he was barely straining when he blocked Jaron, but they were the same strength. What was that?

[X][AFTER] Inform Jaffur that if he is released from the Seal, there's a chance his father might as well. Ask for his thoughts on the matter.

[][AFTER] Enlist Jaffur's help and tease Jaron about Sophie. Unknowingly expose yourself to return fire by way of Maya.

[X][AFTER] Clarify if Jaron is, in fact, a sorcerer as well.


These are the top votes according to the tally, in descending order of popularity.

I agree heartily with Lailoken here, which means I object to certain votes. Voting for what's left as competition.

 

[Andres]

[X] [DEATH] Suggest he hold off on that, at least temporarily. The official reason for the Sealing is that you were dangerously insane and violent. Avoid feeding into that.
-[X] (x0.25) Wholeheartedly offer your support when the time for her death comes.

 

[Blonddude42]

[X] Lailoken

@Lailoken why did you have to air the fact that the current course the thread is headed on is destined for failure! I could have continued on in blissful ignorance but now I see the horrible truth!

Somebody, I think it was @Simon_Jester , wrote an omake from Jaffur's POV which the GM confirmed we spot-on. He was "obsessed" because his entire accumulated context of socializing amounts to hurling brutal killing strikes an inch from somebody's nose and challenging them to a fight. That is how he tries make friends. He wanted to make friends because it was the first time in his life he met somebody who might be a genuine peer equal in strength and with no obligations to or from him.

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Unless someone else wrote a Jaffur omake recently, I think that was actually me. It was technically noncanon, but it was considered compliant because we had no possible way to know the other things that we happening in the background. But apparently I did get his character right.

 

[Lailoken]

[X] [DEATH] As a precaution due to Dandeer's determination and sorcerous threat, ask their permission for a free, unilateral hand to use our personal judgement to deal with Dandeer and dispense justice as we deem circumstances warrant in pursuit of freeing them and resolving the sealing crisis, explicitly up to and including preemptively executing her in cold blood. Get it said explicitly in full in the highest formal Vegetan vow by both of them with all their authority as aggrieved, son, acting family patron, scion, acting lord, and every other basis of authority any of us can think of.

 

[Andres]

ask their permission for a free, unilateral hand to use our personal judgement to deal with Dandeer and dispense justice as we deem

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You have not provided a satisfactory reason why we should think they would at all hand over the judgement of Dandeer to anyone but themselves, least of all to us who would never kill even Hated Enemies.

 

[fictionfan]

[X][AFTER] Ask about that fight. Jaffur looked like he was barely straining when he blocked Jaron, but they were the same strength. What was that?

[X][AFTER] Clarify if Jaron is, in fact, a sorcerer as well.

 

[Bakkasama]

I'll note that if we want to get the feel of some Vegetan opinions without going all-in on the high risk sneaking action, we do have a side door. The church is roughly evenly composed of the clans and they'd certainly love to have Kakara come by and socialize at any activities regardless of host clan.

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That seems like a rather biased sample. You are asking the people who literally worship super saiyans about a super saiyan. That is if they don't tell us whatever they think we want to hear.

[X] [DEATH] Dispute that.
[x][AFTER] Ask about that fight. Jaffur looked like he was barely straining when he blocked Jaron, but they were the same strength. What was that?
[X][AFTER] Ask why the hug was (so very clearly) not okay.
[X][AFTER] Ask Jaffur why he was so obsessed with you when you first met.
[X][AFTER] Clarify if Jaron is, in fact, a sorcerer as well.

This is what was said regarding freeing Vegeta:

"I wanted to know if I needed to tell you anything. But it sounds like you have most of it. Things are bad out in the regular world. I do have another question, though." You steel yourself. "What are you planning to do with Lord Vegeta?" At his look, you hurriedly explain, "I mean, I don't know if he was a good leader compared to his dad, or if Lady Vegeta is, and I just realized that I don't know if Patriarch Yammar was even any good or not-"

"It's okay, Kakara, I get it," he says, kneeling down to your level and putting his hands on your shoulders. "I know what you're asking." He draws back. "To answer you, I conflicted. Vegeta is my old friend, and to be honest he was a decent leader. But I can't ignore who he's become and what he's done since the Sundering. If I had to make the choice today, I would leave him as he is. I'm glad I don't need to. In the end, after all, Jaffur will make that choice." He stands. "As for your other questions: despite his ruthlessness, Yammar was an exemplary leader who did quite a bit to stifle the fragmentation the Clan has been suffering as a result of the population controls being loosened. Vegeta was competent in that despite being personally loathed by anybody who knew about his home life, he didn't erase any of his father's progress. Dandeer..." He sighs. "In two years the Clan that her two successors spent decades rebuilding and maintaining has nearly exploded apart. Do anything but what she does, and you'll be well served."

You giggle, despite yourself. "Thank you." You feel relieved. Lord Vegeta won't be freed -- not by Head Raditz, at least. That still leaves Jaffur, but-

"If I don't find somebody I'll never transform." His voice drops, and you barely hear what follows. What you hear, though, sends a chill through your blood. "And I'll never kill him."

-you doubt that he'll be in favor of his father getting freed.

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After a moment, he chuckles. "I suppose that's why my brother was so cagey when I sounded him out on what he really thought about the Sealing. Little fool. He's always trying to protect me." He opens his eyes. "Well. After our chat on the matter, I'm sure you don't need my thoughts on the Sealing." He laughs again. "I think you might be developing a habit for collecting conspiracies, Kakara. I had started talking to some of our fellow Seers myself about the truth of the Sealing after you spoke to me. I think they'd be very happy to learn that most of the nobility actually agrees with us about the matter."

You start to grin. "You mean..."

"You can count on us," he says, smiling back. "We had thought that the official story was the truth -- that Jaffur was ill, and the Sealing was a medical treatment. Distasteful, but necessary. But what you describe...that's a travesty. Whatever the truth about Jaffur, this can't be allowed to stand. I'll spread the word. You'll get your training -- and you'll have our support, when it's time to make your move."

Click to shrink...

Also, in any scene in which the conspiracy discusses breaking the seal, they talk about freeing Jaffur but they don't mention Vegeta.

Though @Lailoken if you truly think they would reléase Vegeta, I am even more surprised that you are trying to swing getting the right to decide what to do with Dandeer. Also, I doubt Jaffur wouldn't pick on that: he is not an idiot, has a very good vocabulary and does not think us an idiot. I also find that you think they don't have a protocol or laws that stop this when the vegetan have a protocol for everything, even, as we have seen when Raditz did to Yammar, swearing loyalty temporarily to someone in case the current Lord and Scion are unavailable, somewhat dubious. I mean, Gold Man Genocide would be pissed too if we tried that.

 

[anailater]

[X] [DEATH] Suggest he hold off on that, at least temporarily. The official reason for the Sealing is that you were dangerously insane and violent. Avoid feeding into that
[x][AFTER] Ask about that fight. Jaffur looked like he was barely straining when he blocked Jaron, but they were the same strength. What was that?
[X][AFTER] Ask why the hug was (so very clearly) not okay.
[X][AFTER] Ask Jaffur why he was so obsessed with you when you first met.
[X][AFTER] Clarify if Jaron is, in fact, a sorcerer as well.

 

[Lailoken]

You have not provided a satisfactory reason why we should think they would at all hand over the judgement of Dandeer to anyone but themselves, least of all to us who would never kill even Hated Enemies.

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That seems like a rather biased sample. You are asking the people who literally worship super saiyans about a super saiyan. That is if they don't tell us whatever they think we want to hear.

[X] [DEATH] Suggest he hold off on that, at least temporarily. The official reason for the Sealing is that you were dangerously insane and violent. Avoid feeding into that
[x][AFTER] Ask about that fight. Jaffur looked like he was barely straining when he blocked Jaron, but they were the same strength. What was that?
[X][AFTER] Ask why the hug was (so very clearly) not okay.
[X][AFTER] Ask Jaffur why he was so obsessed with you when you first met.
[X][AFTER] Clarify if Jaron is, in fact, a sorcerer as well.

This is what was said regarding freeing Vegeta:



Also, in any scene in which the conspiracy discusses breaking the seal, they talk about freeing Jaffur but they don't mention Vegeta.

Though @Lailoken if you truly think they would reléase Vegeta, I am even more surprised that you are trying to swing getting the right to decide what to do with Dandeer. Also, I doubt Jaffur wouldn't pick on that: he is not an idiot, has a very good vocabulary and does not think us an idiot. I also find that you think they don't have a protocol or laws that stop this when the vegetan have a protocol for everything, even, as we have seen when Raditz did to Yammar, swearing loyalty temporarily to someone in case the current Lord and Scion are unavailable, somewhat dubious. I mean, Gold Man Genocide would be pissed too if we tried that.

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They don't know that part about Kakara, and there is a very real chance that Dandeer may need to be dealt with before they are free in order to prevent her from interfering. It's a perfectly reasonable precaution to say, "Hey, ordinarily this wouldn't be my place, but I'm the one who's here and if I'm presented with a choice between denying you your personal satisfaction and risking never getting you free in the first place I want to be able to focus on getting you free and know you're cool with that."

I suspect that they're not quite so focused on revenge that they'd rather risk being stuck here their whole lives than let somebody else kill Dandeer. They're basically giving us their power of attorney to act as we judge best because they might not be in a position to do it themselves during a critical moment.

Technically that also includes things like issuing her binding clemency under their authority, but that's not likely to occur to them in this context and I'm willing to bet on the diplomancer outwitting the Catastrophic and Lethal rated socials on the check to sell it to them if it comes down to that.

Of course, they could probably figure out some way to revoke any pardon after they're free if they wanted to, but they'd have to want to and they wouldn't if they believed that she was already dead. A pardon doesn't have to be public to be binding.

 

[fictionfan]

@Lailoken : You are asking for way too much too fast. We are going to be talking to them alot this year. Better just to talk about stuff for now rather than asking for anything.

 

[Andres]

Technically they also includes things like issuing her binding clemency under their authority, but that's not likely to occur to them in this context and I'm willing to bet on the diplomancer outwitting the Catastrophic and Lethal rated socials on the check to sell it to them if it comes down to that.

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Pretty sure this kind of thing would fall under Deceit, actually.

But in any case, we shouldn't try because enforcing it won't work. They won't let her live just because we tricked them into saying they would using a technicality. They will attempt to kill her regardless of what we say or do so putting ourselves in a position where we can legally say "no" will not only do nothing, it'll make things worse as they'll be angry at us for tricking them and trying to stop them.

 

[Lailoken]

@Lailoken : You are asking for way too much too fast. We are going to be talking to them alot this year. Better just to talk about stuff for now rather than asking for anything.

Click to shrink...

You mean after we've telegraphed our reluctance to kill her?

We don't know when some surprise is going to force us to kick off the plan early. We just had a discussion about how they want her dead and how she is the most dangerous factor because of her powers and determination. This is the most natural moment possible to discuss it. There's a whole independent section of the vote set aside just for discussing it because this is such a critical moment.

Pretty sure this kind of thing would fall under Deceit, actually.

But in any case, we shouldn't try because enforcing it won't work. They won't let her live just because we tricked them into saying they would using a technicality. They will attempt to kill her regardless of what we say or do so putting ourselves in a position where we can legally say "no" will not only do nothing, it'll make things worse as they'll be angry at us for tricking them and trying to stop them.

Click to shrink...

For the thousandth time, they'll let her live if they think she's already dead.

 

[Marlin]

[X] [DEATH] Suggest he hold off on that, at least temporarily. The official reason for the Sealing is that you were dangerously insane and violent. Avoid feeding into that.
[X][AFTER] Ask about that fight. Jaffur looked like he was barely straining when he blocked Jaron, but they were the same strength. What was that?
[X][AFTER] Clarify is Jaron is, in fact, a sorcerer as well.
[X][AFTER] Inform Jaffur that if he is released from the Seal, there's a chance his father might as well. Ask for his thoughts on the matter.

 

[Cariyaga]

[X] [DEATH] Dispute that.

 

[Blonddude42]

Lailoken, why do I have this feeling that people are disagreeing with you out of principle?

Pretty sure this kind of thing would fall under Deceit, actually.

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Not really? I mean, there's an argument for it, but the wording of the actual vote makes it a social check. It's actually a well done write-in that gets around us needing to do a Deceit Check later to convince them of it. If we show hesitation in killing her now though, we can't do this without the deceit check. And if we don't deal with her before they get their hands on her, we will have to suffer the mental repercussions of her death.

To be clear, under normal circumstances it would be better to take some time before trying for Lailoken's write-in, but since the Death option is forcing our hand, we should bring it up now. Kakara most certainly can convince them to give the authority to her, especially since one of the only things they seem to want more than killing Dandeer at this point is to get out of the Seal. And that's the key piece here -- its phrased that the authority is based on getting them out of the Seal.


I'll admit that I haven't follow the thread closely for the past few days. Would people that are against Lailoken's write-in be willing to provide their reasons why (or restate those reasons why) they think it is a bad idea?

 

[Bakkasama]

For the thousandth time, they'll let her live if they think she's already dead.

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Yeah, but why the hell are you asking for permission? If we have to "kill her" because things went to hell, Jaffur's permission will do nothing, it will be Yammar who will have to judge us so it is not like we need it. If they discover afterwards that we faked her death then no matter the wording they will still be pissed and will still execute her later. The only reason you would need his explicit permission would be if you wanted vegetans to help with hiding her and good luck convincing them not to tell Jaffur and Yammar at first chance.

Even if you don't take into account that we have no way to contain her or to convince her to fake her death without doing something idiotic like trying to kidnap Jaron afterwards or trying to use sorcery on us in revenge, his permission would not be necessary for this. If you want it so that if we "kill" Dandeer we could swing it as legal and have to avoid retribution? It won't work on those who believe Dandeer to be Regent because her authority is supposedly above his as one and for those who don't, the fact that we are acting alongside Yammar for this should give us the tacit permission to do whatever it takes to free Jaffur and Yammar should be the one to decide if the regency is legitimate so asking for Jaffur's permission without Yammar knowing or acknowledging it publicly would not make it legal. Neither of those would particularly matter to Gokuns, though.

If you want her to live, we have a greater chance convincing Jaffur and Jaron to spare her than trying to pull that off. That should tell you how unlikely it is.